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  1. #1

    Bad dps that listens, or good dps that won't listen...

    I had an odd encounter last night in LFR. Group goes through a few bosses, a few wipes, recrimination from some, silence from others. Get to Nazgrim and we wipe 3-4 times, I forget. All through the fight though, the dps are hammering on the boss despite repeated yells and whispers, etc to stop dps on Naz during defensive stance, and to focus the adds when they come up.

    Again and again, the dps keep hammering the boss, ignoring the adds, and pouring it on during defensive. So we wipe, and wipe hard. But they keep doing their thing and not following the mechanics of the fight, despite the tanks, lead, heals, and a few other dps telling them they're directly causing a wipe.

    The question of meters comes up. Of course. And threats of raid kicks. The dps that are topping the charts are the people who aren't listening at all, just hammering the boss through defensive and not switching to adds. The dps on the bottom of the charts are the people who are listening and who know the fight. They're running around getting the adds, hitting the banner, and stopping dps during defensive stance.

    Once the bs settled down, the boss was downed and the night went on. But it brings up an odd question, to me at least.

    Would you rather have killer dps that won't listen, or terrible dps that does listen?

    EDIT: The boss was finally killed because the dps who refused to listen to the mechanics quit because the retards weren't doing enough dps to warrant their (the high dps'ers) presence, and constituted a waste of time. The other dps that came in listened, and we got Naz in one go.
    Last edited by Ranganathan; 2013-10-08 at 08:10 PM.
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  2. #2
    I'd rather have bad dps that listen, you can fix them to improve dps.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Theiea View Post
    I'd rather have bad dps that listen, you can fix them to improve dps.
    This.......

    Mod Edit: Please try to add something more when you post, thanks!
    Last edited by Shamanic; 2013-10-08 at 09:06 PM.

  4. #4
    Bad DPS that listens.

    Last thing I need is a good DPS bursting Nazgrim in defensive stance.

    The reason they are toping DPS charts, is because they are not switching targets all the time. I literally have to jump in front of those morons whispering and begging them to stop DPS on boss and they still continue. Only after I waste 10 seconds trying to make them stop do they actually stop.... obviously they are going to be ahead on the meters, because I'm playing teacher all raid.

  5. #5
    Bad DPS that listens, good DPS that doesn't listen either get themselves killed (going from good DPS to zero DPS), or in fights like Nazgrim wipe the entire raid, both scenarios have one thing in common: it doesn't matter how good their DPS is :P

  6. #6
    The community has become addicted to simple and often flawed measures of performance or skill.
    Meters, ilvl, achievement points and so on.

    A player already obsessed with meters is already a liability and unlikely to improve, because its only downhill in their eyes.
    A player who with advice and support who can only go up is who I would support any day of the week, since afterall everyone was that newbie at one point.
    High dps does not make a player skilled on its own, and nor is a skilled player a good player.
    A good player is one who is desirable for reasons other than just numbers.

  7. #7
    Not really on topic, but you should definitely attack nazgrim through defensive now if you want to make the enrage check in LFR. If you don't you are just setting yourself up for 3-4 wipes for determination stacks before you can ignore defensive stance.

    Honestly with the nerf, he should never even come close to the rage for ravager if tanks do swaps right, even if everyone is attacking through defensive stance. The most you will get is only war song. If for some odd reason you do get ravager they don't even hit that hard anymore. From my experience the enrage is a big killer on this fight simply because everyone has it in their heads to stop attacking during defensives.

    Keep up with adds -> boss. That's all you have to do. No stopping at any point.

    If that doesn't convince you, how about this - he cannot gain more than 1 rage a second. That means if there's even one person attacking him, he's going to gain rage at his full output no matter how many others stop. Just save yourself the hassle and let everyone attack.
    Last edited by Angelicat; 2013-10-08 at 08:29 PM.

  8. #8
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theiea View Post
    I'd rather have bad dps that listen, you can fix them to improve dps.
    On the flip side you can also get the good dps who doesn't listen to listen.


    It honestly is much harder to say than that. It depends on how badly they don't listen, how poorly they fail their jobs/mechanics, or how well thy manage the mechanics but how little they are bringing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    The community has become addicted to simple and often flawed measures of performance or skill.
    Meters, ilvl, achievement points and so on.

    A player already obsessed with meters is already a liability and unlikely to improve, because its only downhill in their eyes.
    A player who with advice and support who can only go up is who I would support any day of the week, since afterall everyone was that newbie at one point.
    High dps does not make a player skilled on its own, and nor is a skilled player a good player.
    A good player is one who is desirable for reasons other than just numbers.
    I mean, playing devils advocate, you've got to give both sides the same fair treatment, assuming that if one can improve the other can as well.

    I've seen plenty of players receive "counseling" and not get better, they still listen to mechanics, but they were on par with a wet rag hitting the boss still. And you'll see players that don't listen get sat down and get a talk and they start to be more raid conscious.

    It's more about who's more rehabilitatable.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
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  9. #9
    Part of the reason he had "killer dps" is because he stayed on the boss dps'ing when he shouldn't have been. Hope that's enough to answer your question.

  10. #10
    A good dps that doesn't listen isn't a good dps.

    Edit: Oh, we're talking about LOLFR? There's good dps in LOLFR? That's news to me.
    Last edited by sith; 2013-10-08 at 08:35 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelicat View Post
    Not really on topic, but you should definitely attack nazgrim through defensive now if you want to make the enrage check in LFR. If you don't you are just setting yourself up for 3-4 wipes for determination stacks before you can ignore defensive stance.

    Honestly with the nerf, he should never even come close to the rage for ravager if tanks do swaps right, even if everyone is attacking through defensive stance. The most you will get is only war song. If for some odd reason you do get ravager they don't even hit that hard anymore. From my experience the enrage is a big killer on this fight simply because everyone has it in their heads to stop attacking during defensives.

    Keep up with adds -> boss. That's all you have to do. No stopping at any point.

    If that doesn't convince you, how about this - he cannot gain more than 1 rage a second. That means if there's even one person attacking him, he's going to gain rage at his full output no matter how many others stop. Just save yourself the hassle and let everyone attack.
    I'm pretty damn sure they didnt make the enrage tight enough that its impossible to kill unless you fight through defensive stance. That statement is dangerously stupid.

    Where do you get that 1 rage a second figure from?
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    I don't want to call Boubouille and wake her up for something like this.

  12. #12
    Brewmaster Forgettable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theiea View Post
    I'd rather have bad dps that listen, you can fix them to improve dps.
    This. Also the reason their dps is lower is because of all the running around and target switching and not dpsing during defensive stance. (Although their dps might be lower because they aren't as good at dpsing outright, but meh)
    Quote Originally Posted by Delti View Post
    If Forgettable knew what he was doing with his keyboard, I would totally kick his ass in dps!
    ^ My guild leader while drunk.

  13. #13
    Strange encounter indeed. It's usually Bad DPS that won't listen and Good DPS that will listen.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Grubjuice's Avatar
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    high dps is not good dps

  15. #15
    Dreadlord Annarion's Avatar
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    Mechanics > DPS, no exceptions. Kick people who don't listen, coach people who do listen but have bad dps.

    You can't heal stupid.

  16. #16
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranganathan View Post
    I had an odd encounter last night in LFR. Group goes through a few bosses, a few wipes, recrimination from some, silence from others. Get to Nazgrim and we wipe 3-4 times, I forget. All through the fight though, the dps are hammering on the boss despite repeated yells and whispers, etc to stop dps on Naz during defensive stance, and to focus the adds when they come up.

    Again and again, the dps keep hammering the boss, ignoring the adds, and pouring it on during defensive. So we wipe, and wipe hard. But they keep doing their thing and not following the mechanics of the fight, despite the tanks, lead, heals, and a few other dps telling them they're directly causing a wipe.

    The question of meters comes up. Of course. And threats of raid kicks. The dps that are topping the charts are the people who aren't listening at all, just hammering the boss through defensive and not switching to adds. The dps on the bottom of the charts are the people who are listening and who know the fight. They're running around getting the adds, hitting the banner, and stopping dps during defensive stance.

    Once the bs settled down, the boss was downed and the night went on. But it brings up an odd question, to me at least.

    Would you rather have killer dps that won't listen, or terrible dps that does listen?

    EDIT: The boss was finally killed because the dps who refused to listen to the mechanics quit because the retards weren't doing enough dps to warrant their (the high dps'ers) presence, and constituted a waste of time. The other dps that came in listened, and we got Naz in one go.
    Having done Nazgrim LFR I can say that if you have the DPS to ignore D stance and if the ranged are switching to the adds then you can just power through it. The baddies in your grp must have been pretty bad...

    OT: In my experience outside of LFR the baddies are the ones that cant be assed to change, go to a website to look up proper priority lists, and when those things are suggested they get all pissy and go "DOOD IT'S JUST A GAME BRUH WHO GIVES A FUCK!?"
    Last edited by Rizendragon; 2013-10-08 at 08:53 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Theiea View Post
    I'd rather have bad dps that listen, you can fix them to improve dps.
    This, a bad player will be willing to learn, a good one who doesn't give two shits will be probably sitting watching tv while doing lfr and coasting along because "lol, lfr"

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaoslux View Post
    I'm pretty damn sure they didnt make the enrage tight enough that its impossible to kill unless you fight through defensive stance. That statement is dangerously stupid.

    Where do you get that 1 rage a second figure from?
    October 2 Patch notes. It's not 1 rage per second, though, it's one rage per second just from being attacked in defensive stance (down from 2 before the hotfix). He's correct, though, that once at least one person is on him, the entire raid may as well attack him and it won't generate much if any additional rage. And in LFR there is always going to be at least one DPS on the wrong target at any given time.

    Can I take the happy medium and have mediocre dps who listen most of the time? Dying to enrage timers with a bunch of nice, attentive people who are trying hard but still can't manage more than 40k dps isn't any more fun than dying to mechanics because all the meter-fiends are tunneling the boss.
    Last edited by Cylthia; 2013-10-08 at 08:55 PM.

  19. #19
    As the first poster said, a bad dps is prefered. They can be improved if they listen. People who don't listen, generally improve more slowly.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  20. #20
    That is the funny part. All the "good" people who yell dmg stop are in reality the bad ones.
    All this ignorance about how stuff works is making me crazy every time.

    And dont come me with everyone stops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranganathan View Post
    EDIT: The boss was finally killed because the dps who refused to listen to the mechanics quit because the retards weren't doing enough dps to warrant their (the high dps'ers) presence, and constituted a waste of time. The other dps that came in listened, and we got Naz in one go.
    Or maybe it was because of 5 stacks of determination which make bad dps appear "good".
    Last edited by Teph; 2013-10-08 at 09:03 PM.

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