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  1. #1161
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Just go to WCL and look up the top 50 mages for every single boss. That old familiar lack of frost in there again. It's not a "not enough people play frost" or "they just got good RNG" issue anymore. Frost scaling is still crap at higher ilevels. The fact that you can stack any of the three secondary stats and get roughly the same results beyond a certain breakpoint should be a clue.

    Great and fun spec to play, viable, but at the end of the day still outshone by the other two at the top end.

    ed: I also don't even consider 10-man anymore, as most of the better 10-man guilds have gone 25-man so the 25 man format is where more of the better players are now.
    Again, is it 2013? You're trolling, and you know it. There's no practical purpose to your post other than to agitate me.

    Your argument has no place here. First, you're limiting parses to the top 50. Second, you're discounting how completely irrelevant the top parses are with these added item levels. Third, you cite Norushen which requires the mage himself be the one who logs, which many do but I would not consider that to be a valid frame of reference.

    Most importantly, you're telling people to go 14242->mastery as though you're up to date on the latest theorycraft. At item level 580 we began to see how crit damage amplification on PBoI began to change the scaling of crit when coupled with high mastery or high haste. Min/max for either haste or mastery as item levels increase is very clearly showing a drastic gain.

    14242 is a compromise point and definitely my recommendation until you're over 580, especially with a 4/4 upgraded PBoI. Water Ele damage increases roughly the same with haste or mastery, and is complimented strongly by equalizing the weight of crit (above shatter cap) with haste or mastery. LB/NT damage increases so drastically in haste builds that the value of the crits + amp makes high haste build viable as well. On the mastery max side of things, icicles become so hard hitting that by adding crit to frostbolt it outscales haste.

    I really don't want you coming into my thread telling people 14242->mastery when the VP upgrades have clouded the issue. Further, the reason you don't see more frost mages up there yet is most of the ones I knew have all gone arcane because they assumed the upgrades will benefit arcane the most. Hell, that was my theory until I began to see how it improved my own numbers.

    The best I've seen so far is 19347 haste -> 10k crit -> 8k mastery. I need a couple more weeks of VP cap to switch over to my 28k haste->crit build. I would really like if someone could do the 100% mastery -> crit build and report back, too.

    What I promise the community though, is that if they stick to 14242, they'll never get any crazy parses.

  2. #1162
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    What I promise the community though, is that if they stick to 14242, they'll never get any crazy parses.
    IJ is the "patchwerk" of this tier I suppose. Looking through the top 20 frost, I cannot find a single player reforged to 19347 haste. Most are 14242 with some at the 15k NT breakpoint (but still using LB) and a few around 10k or 12k.

    15 of the top 20 are May 20 or later, post-item upgrades. I'm #9 (and I died with the boss at 15%).

    I don't care what the math says, I don't see anybody with "crazy parses" spam reforging haste. Including you.

    http://www.twitch.tv/mylilgoatse/ mage challenge modes and heroic raiding

  3. #1163
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    IJ is the "patchwerk" of this tier I suppose. Looking through the top 20 frost, I cannot find a single player reforged to 19347 haste. Most are 14242 with some at the 15k NT breakpoint (but still using LB) and a few around 10k or 12k.

    15 of the top 20 are May 20 or later, post-item upgrades. I'm #9 (and I died with the boss at 15%).

    I don't care what the math says, I don't see anybody with "crazy parses" spam reforging haste. Including you.
    They're doing it wrong. As of yet I haven't seen any of those people even try the mastery or haste builds because people love to get married to convention.

    You'll never see top parses out of me, have you seen my guild? Also you're demonstrating your continued ignorance on this matter by focusing on the ranks themselves, not the parses. If I see my uptimes and the damage I'm doing on a fight that's taking 2 minutes longer than a fight you are doing (which how are you #9? Aren't you Charmander?), then I know that I would be much higher. I'm also not as skilled as the top 10 or 20 mages, and would love to see them break free from the 14242 mindset and give the other two builds a proper try.

    Try it, why not? There's so much time left in this patch. Go full mastery and see how it works, mastery>haste=crit; I'd love Drjay, Frenikk, or Feylaa to try haste>crit=mastery, too.

    Oh, and I don't know why you'd care about optimizing for IJ, too, when almost every fight has some sort of add damage you can do.


    Update: this is relevant: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-human-..._ibsrc=fanpage Open your damn minds.

  4. #1164
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    They're doing it wrong. As of yet I haven't seen any of those people even try the mastery or haste builds because people love to get married to convention.
    I've played mastery and some of the other top 20 played mastery as well from the looks of it. I've actually gotten more consistent results at 14242, though that's in part because I can't even go below about 13k or so in my gear so I may as well reforge for the lowest "breakpoint" available.

    Also you're demonstrating your continued ignorance on this matter by focusing on the ranks themselves, not the parses. If I see my uptimes and the damage I'm doing on a fight that's taking 2 minutes longer than a fight you are doing (which how are you #9? Aren't you Charmander?), then I know that I would be much higher.
    I'm actually #10 now. I show as #12 but two parses above mine are duplicates. Anyway.

    Uptimes aren't an issue because you should have good uptimes regardless of your spec or build. But if you kill the boss in 5:20 and have great invokers/LB uptime and minimal lost BF procs, that doesn't translate to having a top parse should the boss have died in 3:20. If anything, spam stacking haste on a fight like IJ is -worse- because the fight is typically short so more and more of a proportion of it it becomes spent below GCD cap due to bloodlust. When 20% of the fight is spent below GCD cap versus 10% that's a huge difference.

    Oh, and I don't know why you'd care about optimizing for IJ, too, when almost every fight has some sort of add damage you can do.
    Sim math is typically done based on a single target as multiple targets add additional variables, causing an increased margin of error. But the top players on IJ are also some of the top players on Malkorok, Norushen, Protectors, Garrosh and other fights with multiple targets or adds, and I very much doubt they reforged and regemmed themselves to haste between bosses.

    It just continues to make no logical sense to me to attempt to increase bomb damage as frost when bomb is damage completely unaffected by one of the three primary stats. As arcane, sure. That's why you stack mastery, because it increases bomb damage (and everything else). That's why mastery is strong for arcane, because it affects all of the spec's damage. For frost, none of the three stats affect all of the spec's damage, so it is logical to stack the stat which affects more of the spec's damage than any other, which is mastery after the lowest feasable breakpoint. If anything, I'd be amused seeing someone stack int and go in there, since int is the only stat you can stack as frost which affects all damage you do.

    (yes I know bomb damage increased by haste increases FFB damage via more procs, but more procs get lost.)

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  5. #1165
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'm tired of having to explain the basics of the spec to you. Your last paragraph still shows that you don't understand how it works.

    Maybe you play well, but theorycraft isn't for you. I don't even care if the world chooses to believe you at this point, I know better. Not spending any more time on you.

  6. #1166
    Ok, but unless someone (such as yourself) goes in there and says, "here's my superb parses made by spam stacking haste", none of this theorycraft is worth anything compared to all the existing top parses that are 14242 -> mastery or similar.

    http://www.twitch.tv/mylilgoatse/ mage challenge modes and heroic raiding

  7. #1167
    Right now I am on 14242 Haste build.
    Not going to try 18960 yet since I miss 1 strong Haste item to be comfortable for that break point and also I beleive my PC and connection may on be on level for such high haste build.
    However, tonight I will try Haste -> Mastery = Crit build to see how it will work.

    On AMR valuse now I am -> Haste 14258 (50,04%) -> Mastery 16192 (80,94%) -> Crit 6264 (25,91%)

    After Mastery = Crit reforge it will be Haste 14258 (50,04%) -> Mastery 10978 (63,56%) = Crit 11017 (33,83%)

    All values full raid buffed of course.

    Quite significant loss of Mastery should have negative impact on Icicle generated and WE damage.
    On other hand quite solid increase in Crit should have positive effect on Frostbolt (more crits) so indirectly reduce negative Icicle generation effect from Mastery loss.
    Same for WE damage - reduced WE damage should to some extend be compensated from more crits that WE will do.

    Pure benefit from more Crit will be higher Frostbolt damage and increased Mage Bomb damage due to more criticals. And that will be with ilv588 HC WF PBoI which give 9,7% amplification.

    Really excited actually to see how it will work out.

    And actually not so expensive experiment - just 4 gems and rest through reforging

  8. #1168
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Ok, but unless someone (such as yourself) goes in there and says, "here's my superb parses made by spam stacking haste", none of this theorycraft is worth anything compared to all the existing top parses that are 14242 -> mastery or similar.
    I'm not a theorycrafter, nor a top player, so I'm not going to say who is right or wrong in this particular argument - but saying "everyone is doing it so it must be right" isn't exactly a strong argument, particularly when the changes that made some of the new builds possible haven't been out for that long so people may not have had the inclination or the time to try out a variety of builds or get enough data to prove which is better.
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  9. #1169
    I think it is at least safe to assume crit's weight is higher than previously thought, especially on shorter fights. More time spent with frostbolt at GCD cap increases crit's value, so it probably does come out to around the same value as mastery on fights like IJ or Malkorok which can be blown through in under four minutes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    I'm not a theorycrafter, nor a top player, so I'm not going to say who is right or wrong in this particular argument - but saying "everyone is doing it so it must be right" isn't exactly a strong argument, particularly when the changes that made some of the new builds possible haven't been out for that long so people may not have had the inclination or the time to try out a variety of builds or get enough data to prove which is better.
    The 19k > haste theorycraft has been around for quite a while now, I think Akraen was babbling about it months ago. I didn't agree with it then and don't agree with it now. I don't think you will get "bad" results with it, I just don't think you will get "top" results.

    http://www.twitch.tv/mylilgoatse/ mage challenge modes and heroic raiding

  10. #1170
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    I don't care what the math says, I don't see anybody with "crazy parses" spam reforging haste. Including you.
    There is no math that says to go that high.

    I'm also really curious to know why you (akraen) think additional item levels makes crit = mastery, and why you think the increased item level now all the sudden improves Frost scaling.

    How has the increase in stats fundamentally changed how our spells interact with mastery/int/crit/haste?

    So far I haven't seen anything but random logs and conjecture.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2014-05-28 at 02:58 PM.

  11. #1171
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    The best I've seen so far is 19347 haste -> 10k crit -> 8k mastery.
    For the sake of practical use of AMR, what % does 10k crit rating and 8k mastery correlate to?

  12. #1172
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    I think it is at least safe to assume crit's weight is higher than previously thought, especially on shorter fights. More time spent with frostbolt at GCD cap increases crit's value, so it probably does come out to around the same value as mastery on fights like IJ or Malkorok which can be blown through in under four minutes.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The 19k > haste theorycraft has been around for quite a while now, I think Akraen was babbling about it months ago. I didn't agree with it then and don't agree with it now. I don't think you will get "bad" results with it, I just don't think you will get "top" results.
    If you don't like it then don't play it. I play it and it nets me good results, that's all I need.

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  13. #1173
    Brewmaster durrtygoodz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alken View Post
    For the sake of practical use of AMR, what % does 10k crit rating and 8k mastery correlate to?
    10k crit rating doesn't relate to a % since it changes with your int as well

    8k mastery is like 40%, idk for sure though.
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  14. #1174
    I miss the days when theorycrafting meant using mathematics to find the truth, rather than drawing the conclusion you like most and then trying to make everything fit.

    You didn't get community schisms back when peer reviewed math was king.

  15. #1175
    I can't remember if icicles is 2 or 2.5 per mastery point. I think 2? So 8k mastery should be 42.6%. If its 2.5, then 53.3%.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2014-05-28 at 05:33 PM.

  16. #1176
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    I miss the days when theorycrafting meant using mathematics to find the truth, rather than drawing the conclusion you like most and then trying to make everything fit.

    You didn't get community schisms back when peer reviewed math was king.
    By all means, post away... complaining does nothing, if you don't like the work I do then actually do something yourself or with me. So far in 5.4 I'm the only one who has posted any math, but not on MMO Champion... I'm not that stupid. Muphrid and Frosted poked all the right holes in the math which then adjusted the conclusion to one with less certainty.

    The problem here isn't me suggesting some alternative ideas to try since we have 8 more ilvls. The problem is the instant and constant dismissal of everything I say "because that's not how the top 20 parsing mages do it"

    Started watching Fargo the other night, this jumped out at me before it even became relevant to the show:


    I've always been the red fish. I don't make threads and theorycraft because I think I'm anything special, I just default to an open mind and wanting to try this stuff out. Mostly what I find from people though is that nobody really wants to help. The main math people I've encountered don't ever do anything, they love being "peer review" - but it really sucks when the guy who isn't particularly good at math at all (me) is the one being reviewed. I'm an idea generator, the creative spitballer, and I never really wanted to be anything more than that.

    This just isn't a friendly community and Critique proves that time and time again.


    PS: I didn't mail you that excel sheet Frosted b/c it's all outdated now and it can't possibly help you. I'll be updating it and making docs available for download on altered-time.com

  17. #1177
    Grunt Nissinn's Avatar
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    I agree with Charmander mastery build having the best consistent results. I also am concerned with frost performance vs fire and arcane with the 4/4 gear upgrades there is no way to compete just look at the 90th percentile rankings on Iron Jugg they have 100k over frost I have a top 20 parse on Iron Jugg as frost and it wouldn't even break top 100 as other specs.

  18. #1178
    Quote Originally Posted by Nissinn View Post
    I agree with Charmander mastery build having the best consistent results. I also am concerned with frost performance vs fire and arcane with the 4/4 gear upgrades there is no way to compete just look at the 90th percentile rankings on Iron Jugg they have 100k over frost I have a top 20 parse on Iron Jugg as frost and it wouldn't even break top 100 as other specs.
    This was the case before the 4/4 upgrades as well. Frost only came close on Malkorok. (If you are looking at the top parses)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    PS: I didn't mail you that excel sheet Frosted b/c it's all outdated now and it can't possibly help you. I'll be updating it and making docs available for download on altered-time.com
    Alrighty. I'll just work on getting enough replicates for the different haste levels to have some decent error on the %ETs.

    This also means you need to update your IV thread, since you've updated the working behind it's presentation, yeah?

    Or I guess you just will wait until AT.com is up. /grumpyface
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2014-05-28 at 05:40 PM.

  19. #1179
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Alrighty. I'll just work on getting enough replicates for the different haste levels to have some decent error on the %ETs.

    This also means you need to update your IV thread, since you've updated the working behind it's presentation, yeah?

    Or I guess you just will wait until AT.com is up. /grumpyface
    I'm going to delete everything that I have on Icy Veins-- they are not interested in the level of theorycraft and advanced play many of us wanted to contribute. I'll leave this thread here but once it's outdated it's gone-- I'm not maintaining it. I don't think MMOC is really designed for theorycraft either. Altered Time isn't a competitor to either, it's a mage-specific source so it'll be where I post and maintain everything.

  20. #1180
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I'm going to delete everything that I have on Icy Veins-- they are not interested in the level of theorycraft and advanced play many of us wanted to contribute. I'll leave this thread here but once it's outdated it's gone-- I'm not maintaining it. I don't think MMOC is really designed for theorycraft either. Altered Time isn't a competitor to either, it's a mage-specific source so it'll be where I post and maintain everything.
    I see. Ok then.

    In response to some of the hostility here - you don't really present things as general ideas for thought or as questions with vague thoughts about conclusions (the 19k haste stuff, improved frost scaling, crit/mastery relationship changing). It's presented as if it's been figured out, then you edit the OP, and you and other people go on to respond to people asking for advice with conclusions that nobody has figured out. This is why you have Citrique, and myself to a lesser degree, jumping down your throat about these things.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2014-05-28 at 06:17 PM.

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