1. #1181
    I'm of the opinion that reacting to criticism by "deleting everything then retreating to a forum you have complete control over" is unbelievably childish and pretty much proves critics right, but whatever. Evidently people on IV don't agree with haste stacking either.

    I'm not a math whiz. So I don't do math and leave it to people who are good at it. I just play the game, pretty decently, and go with what obviously works and is proven to work, and what makes sense when considering how the stats interact with one another and various skills. 14242 -> mastery is proven to work and more or less all of the top parses for just about every boss used it or some variant of "mastery -> haste" below 15k. I'm sure stacking 19k+ haste and multidotting with NT will produce decent results on protectors and galakras, but if you're playing frost and multidotting 3+ targets with NT, you should be asking yourself why you're not playing arcane where multidotting NT will produce numbers far higher than anything frost can even played perfectly.

    http://www.twitch.tv/mylilgoatse/ mage challenge modes and heroic raiding

  2. #1182
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I see. Ok then.

    In response to some of the hostility here - you don't really present things as general ideas for thought or as questions with vague thoughts about conclusions (the 19k haste stuff, improved frost scaling, crit/mastery relationship changing). It's presented as if it's been figured out, then you edit the OP, and you and other people go on to respond to people asking for advice with conclusions that nobody has figured out. This is why you have Citrique, and myself to a lesser degree, jumping down your throat about these things.
    Except you have the goal of finding answers. His goal is just to be obnoxious. He doesn't present counterpoints, countermath, any math really. I at least give it effort and try to be honest the entire time. When I don't know something I don't rule anything out. When he doesn't know something he pretends he does.

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Except you have the goal of finding answers. His goal is just to be obnoxious. He doesn't present counterpoints, countermath, any math really. I at least give it effort and try to be honest the entire time. When I don't know something I don't rule anything out. When he doesn't know something he pretends he does.
    He doesn't need math. Just results, which are all over WoL.

    His counterpoint is that nobody goes full haste and ranks highly.

    Your point is an assumption: you think that nobody has tried it.

    Critique is spot on the ilvl hasn't done anything to help frost so far. Maybe at full HC WF 4/4 is tips the scale but its benefiting our others specs and alot of other classes much better.

    Not saying you can't do really well as frost, it's still strong; you just can't hide behind numbers and theories forever. You need human trials, find someone with the gear and the skill and show it in a real world scenario.

    I only have 1 wf heroic item, 10-man can be harsh :<

  4. #1184
    I'm 586 ilevel. Max possible is 589 I believe. I'm not the ZOMG BEST MAGE IN THE WORLD METHOD TRIAL RECRUIT or anything but I'm up there in the top 20 on WCL and at 586 ilevel I feel that I am hitting a wall with what amount of damage I can put out with the frost spec compared to arcane. I played mediocre on Norushen and had crap invokers uptime, so I could maybe squeeze out 10-15k more there, but that still doesn't break 500k.
    Last edited by citrique; 2014-05-28 at 08:09 PM.

    http://www.twitch.tv/mylilgoatse/ mage challenge modes and heroic raiding

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    I'm 586 ilevel. Max possible is 589 I believe. I'm not the ZOMG BEST MAGE IN THE WORLD METHOD TRIAL RECRUIT or anything but I'm up there in the top 20 on WCL and at 586 ilevel I feel that I am hitting a wall with what amount of damage I can put out with the frost spec compared to arcane. I played mediocre on Norushen and had crap invokers uptime, so I could maybe squeeze out 10-15k more there, but that still doesn't break 500k.
    Frost does lower dps than arcane, who would've guessed

  6. #1186
    Well duh yeah, but the ilevel upgrades seem to have boosted arcane a fair bit more than frost. I'm not seeing numbers hugely higher than pre-patch.

    http://www.twitch.tv/mylilgoatse/ mage challenge modes and heroic raiding

  7. #1187
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Well duh yeah, but the ilevel upgrades seem to have boosted arcane a fair bit more than frost. I'm not seeing numbers hugely higher than pre-patch.
    But why does that matter? Isn't the point of this guide to play frost? What does arcane damage have to do with it? Shouldn't frost mages be comparing themselves to other frost mages? I feel like if your argument is to swap because "rankings or nothing" then you might as well swap to a lock. Or if sim Dps is all that matters a fury war

  8. #1188
    Quote Originally Posted by Txiv View Post
    But why does that matter? Isn't the point of this guide to play frost? What does arcane damage have to do with it? Shouldn't frost mages be comparing themselves to other frost mages? I feel like if your argument is to swap because "rankings or nothing" then you might as well swap to a lock. Or if sim Dps is all that matters a fury war
    Well, a lot of the last posts were me comparing mastery stacking frost mages to haste stacking ones. I feel if you spam stack haste to 19k or higher, you are not playing the frost spec optimally and are not getting as much benefit from ilevel scaling as you would stacking mastery. However, the question has come up as to whether frost remains competitive post-patch and the answer from post-patch logs seems to be that no, the other two specs continue to outscale it as ilevel rises.

    http://www.twitch.tv/mylilgoatse/ mage challenge modes and heroic raiding

  9. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Well, a lot of the last posts were me comparing mastery stacking frost mages to haste stacking ones. I feel if you spam stack haste to 19k or higher, you are not playing the frost spec optimally and are not getting as much benefit from ilevel scaling as you would stacking mastery. However, the question has come up as to whether frost remains competitive post-patch and the answer from post-patch logs seems to be that no, the other two specs continue to outscale it as ilevel rises.
    i get that totaly, im just saying these types of discussions often drift in the way of comparing one specs build to "how does it compare to other builds" very quickly. I just think if you play frost then you should compare your parses to other frost mages.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So I gave 14242 haste with high mastery a try again and it worked well. I even got the # 1 us rank on heroic 10 malk. But for all other fights I did about the same with 18690. Am interested to see how heroic Garry goes tonight
    Last edited by Txiv; 2014-05-29 at 05:53 PM.

  10. #1190
    Is it only me or it's really that KTT proc chance and PPM decreases with ilvl ? Or maybe there's some sort of bug that substantially decreases chance of KTT proccing after you go above 580 ilvl. For example, full length malkorok fight with only 6 procs in total / abysmal 15% uptime.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Well, a lot of the last posts were me comparing mastery stacking frost mages to haste stacking ones. I feel if you spam stack haste to 19k or higher, you are not playing the frost spec optimally and are not getting as much benefit from ilevel scaling as you would stacking mastery. However, the question has come up as to whether frost remains competitive post-patch and the answer from post-patch logs seems to be that no, the other two specs continue to outscale it as ilevel rises.
    Well, even if you disregard 10m existence, it's still here for a few months. My guild cant expand into 25m because of dead server, and I simply cant go arcane (in addition to the fact that i dont really like it) because it will mean -1 person for doing mechanics.

    I admit, i was enticed by Akraen's math and so i tried 19k haste for spoils progression (me and frost dk had to carry shadow priest with sub 200k dps) for maximizing my dps and make the kill possible. I had 60 ms ping back then, with occasional spikes to 150-200ms, and my dps was lower than usual for 20-30k. Next day i switched back to 14501 (lust + meta breakpoint for 24-ticks NT or something like that) and it was much better for me (personally).

  11. #1191
    Tried this Wednesday switch from 14242 Haste > Mastery > Crit to 14242 Haste > Mastery = Crit

    Before change full raid buffed stats were:
    Haste 14258 (50,04%)
    Mastery 16192 (80,94%)
    Crit 6264 (25,91%)

    After change they are:
    Haste 14258 (50,04%)
    Mastery 10978 (63,56%)
    Crit 11017 (33,83%)

    Crit is after 3% crit suppression.

    So far it seem like build work really nice and give better DPS but I am actually looking forward to next reset as we will also than do full SoO reset (going from start) as than I will be actually able to compare how it work compared to "before" as there will be lot of fights to compare. Will see, but so far it look that build have nice potential specially as I have ilv 588 (4/4) HC WF PBoI.
    Last edited by Mauro; 2014-05-30 at 12:55 PM.

  12. #1192
    R.I.P Akraen may your arcane/frosty spitballs of knowledge never dry out.

  13. #1193
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    R.I.P Akraen may your arcane/frosty spitballs of knowledge never dry out.
    Got an empire to run now!

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Got an empire to run now!

  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    R.I.P Akraen may your arcane/frosty spitballs of knowledge never dry out.
    No need to be a snotty pre-adolescent about it just because u dont agree with Akraen!!

    as for whats being said, i found the 14242 haste then Mastery to be a lot better in DPS than full Haste. Having said that, i still appreciate the math and efffort Akraen puts in.

  16. #1196
    Quote Originally Posted by happyraven View Post
    No need to be a snotty pre-adolescent about it just because u dont agree with Akraen!!
    Wasn't being sarcastic.

    And nice spitball of useless anecdotal "evidence" right there, fantastic contribution.

  17. #1197
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Wasn't being sarcastic.

    And nice spitball of useless anecdotal "evidence" right there, fantastic contribution.
    No problem, only adding to your pointless "sarcastic" comments... so anytime champ :P

  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by happyraven View Post
    No problem, only adding to your pointless "sarcastic" comments... so anytime champ :P
    Ooh, okay, so that part where you said that you find 14242 haste > mastery "a lot better DPS" is sarcastic now that I called it out for being inconclusive/not evidence of anything.

    Unless you were deliberately spreading misinformation with your sarcastic comment, without having made a point at all.

    Good job making an embarassment of yourself, "champ"...

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Ooh, okay, so that part where you said that you find 14242 haste > mastery "a lot better DPS" is sarcastic now that I called it out for being inconclusive/not evidence of anything.

    Unless you were deliberately spreading misinformation with your sarcastic comment, without having made a point at all.

    Good job making an embarassment of yourself, "champ"...
    ahh sorry man, i forgot we have an Eistein on the forum.. sorry i didnt have time to draw a graph and cute little pictures for u... embarrassed cause i said 14242 haste > mastery yielded better DPS for me.. oh the utter Embarrassment... God i feel so small and insignificant... lemme go delete my character now that i feel so embarrased. good job... champ

  20. #1200

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