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  1. #1

    WoD Fire Mage Game-Play (or lack there-of)

    Hello fellow Mages --

    Let me preface this by saying that I love WoW, and by extension the Mage class. I have been here for all the highs and lows. I've raided and pvp'd in every expansion (to varying degrees) and am as enthusiastic about our class as one can possibly be. I finally got a WoD beta key and was so ecstatic to see what's changed and what input I could bring to the table to help make it ready for launch. If not for needing other professions, I'd have solely played the Mage class these past 10 years. Despite that I still have well over a year of total time on my Mage to show how much I enjoy playing one.

    Upon playing Beta I have to say that Fire seems absolutely gutted. I play virtually exclusively as Fire, have since 04' (aside from the sporadic raid encounter, Cata's OP frost PvP and Challenge Modes in MoP), and I literally cannot believe what's happened to it.


    * Let me get down into the nitty-gritty of where I think this problem arises for me and I would also like to hear your thoughts about it as well. *


    Shatter Removal and Ice Lance/Deep Freeze Removal - As a Fire Mage, one of the most critical parts of getting the most out the spec has been Shatter Combos. By this I mean landing consecutive or multiple spells within a small window frame to have them all benefit from the increased critical strike damage and increased critical strike chance.

    With the removal of these 2 spells and shatter's passive, they have effectively removed a LARGE part of the skill / nuance of being a Fire Mage while also benefiting from using other spell types in cohesion.

    -no more Chained Pyroblasts into a Deep Frozen target

    -no more Pyroblast/Fireball with a subsequent Ice Lance afterward into a frozen target

    This leads to a much more simplified damage rotation within Fire Mage's confines and game-play while also damaging their kite-ability which brings me to my next point ---


    Kiting - As a Fire Mage, you must use every spell in your arsenal to kite effectively. This means utilizing spells of different types such as, Frost Nova, Ice Lance, Cone of Cold, Blizzard, and Arcane Explosion. With all of these removed from a Fire Mage's arsenal with the exception of Frost Nova (and thereby removing the possibility of ever having Blastwave if you so choose to keep Frost Nova), a Fire Mage's utility to kite has been severely limited.

    -no more Cone of Cold'ing large groups while strafing away Arcane Explosion'ing

    -no more Blizzard-slowing packs of mobs

    -no more Deep Freezing a Ring of Frost'd or Frost Nova'd target to help with Crowd Control and or DPS

    This leads to a Fire Mage having a much more difficult time kiting individuals in PvP and groups of mobs while also reducing their overall Crowd Control capabilities.


    Mage Nuance utilizing Frost Spells -

    With Ice Lance's removal, Fire Mages have taken a serious hit in PvP:

    - no more Ice Lancing spell reflect / mass spell reflect

    - no more Ice Lancing as a low cost finisher (which leads me to my next point)

    - no more Ice Lancing when we're locked out of using Fire spells due to being Silenced

    - no more Ice Lancing placed Shaman Totems


    Mage Finishers While leveling, I've realized how vital other spell types were to my overall effectiveness of killing mobs whether they be a single target or multiple. When I'd get a mob to low hp I kept trying to Arcane Explosion it down or Cone of Cold it and came to the abrupt realization that we can't anymore and now we'll have to charge up another spell (i.e scorch or fireball) instead of quickly AoE'ing them down (if our Fire instants are down):

    - no more Arcane Explosion'ing large packs of mobs down

    - no more Arcane Explosion'ing as a finisher

    - no more Cone of Cold'ing as a finisher

    - no more Blizzard'ing large groups from afar for safety and or to bide time for another finisher to come off cool down.

    This leads me to feeling like Fire has become much more clunky (waiting for cds) and not as fluid as (Vanilla->MoP's) version has been with every spell type at our disposal at any time.


    Healing as a Fire Mage As a Fire Mage, we've been able to utilize Evocation as a life-saving heal in many occurrences. I'm an avid solo'er, be it old raids, current elite mob spawns (wabringers), or just farming mobs. Evocation has also enabled me to beat encounters that may not have been possible otherwise (due to gear restraints or mechanics).

    - no more Evocate'ing through different types of damage

    - no more Evocate'ing to quickly gain Invocation for things like Challenge Modes, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild or Raid Encounters requiring high sustained mobility

    I was there for when you had to Talent 20 points into Arcane for Evocation and it has become a part of me as a Fire Mage especially throughout MoP with the Invocation talent. Losing it seems fruitless as well as a severe detriment due to not having ANY heal other than the Iceblock glyph (l o l).


    Blastwave - The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King's versions of Blast Wave were amazing. The daze/slow, the knock-back, the kite-ability. It was such an awesome spell to behold and use with a very high skill level at its best in both PvP and PvE.

    - this WoD version of Blastwave seems incredibly lackluster in comparison

    - yes you get 2 charges but the problem I have is that it's not up to ME to cast it where I want (i.e Frost's Pet Freeze, Blizzard, Flamestrike, or Ring of Frost)

    - you have to select a target and use it and that severely limits the ability to clip around pillars or edges in PvP as well PvE

    Why can't we just get the old Blastwave back (as so many have asked for, for years)? Why can't we cast it where we want (like it's earlier versions were)?


    Mirror Image - Mirror Image was a godsend when it was first implemented in Wrath of the Lich King. Dropping threat, getting extra DPS (for a short period of time), and having 3 mirror images of yourself casting Frostbolt (as a Fire Mage) was an ultimate ability. Yes there were bad times where those f'ers would break our sheeps or attack the wrong target but to just take it away from us while making us choose that or:

    - a passive damage increase that fluctuates up and down in combat (run out of ideas much?)

    - or a super clunky ability that ties us to the ground?

    This Talent Tier is utterly ridiculous and I can't be the only one that feels this way. I bet us as a forum group could collectively come up with better things than this.



    To me, these changes are a make-or-break scenario of me continuing to play or not. I love the complexity, the nuance, and most importantly -- the ability to use Arcane Magic to it's FULLEST. What that means is being able to use Frost and Arcane spells as a Fire Mage.

    To take away that ability, is to clip a Fire Mage's metaphorical wings. Let us keep flying..

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  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk
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    Yeah, I don't do any of the shit you just mentioned. I don't heal on my mage. I don't finish mobs off with shitty nonfire aoe. Blastwave isn't a serious ability for me, so it having two charges and being targeted is fine. I also don't need to chain shit on deep frozen targets. In PvE I dont need to kite. I'm a fire mage. I'll just blow them the fuck up.

    Also, it wasn't fluid. Maybe to you. But I never had AE on my bar. I had blizzard. Because I couldn't be bothered with it. Why does a fire mage have these spells again? Who the fuck knows.

    Why do I have cone of cold? Why do I have frost nova? Where's my fire CCs, slows, etc. NONE OF THESE SPELLS MADE SENSE ON A FIRE MAGE.
    Last edited by Dragoncurry; 2014-07-31 at 07:18 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoncurry View Post
    Also, it wasn't fluid. Maybe to you. But I never had AE on my bar. I had blizzard. Because I couldn't be bothered with it. Why does a fire mage have these spells again? Who the fuck knows.

    Why do I have cone of cold? Why do I have frost nova? Where's my fire CCs, slows, etc. NONE OF THESE SPELLS MADE SENSE ON A FIRE MAGE.
    A Mage is a master of Arcane Magic (meaning all 3). Frost and Fire are sects of that magic and a Mage is able to utilize all 3 at the same time. A specialization means that you can do a little extra of a part of that sect of Arcane Magic. A Fire Mage isn't only supposed to be able to use Fire spells. That's not a Mage..that's something entirely different.

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  4. #4
    FYI, We were only able to heal using Evocation since Cataclysm. Before that, we didn't have a heal either.

    I've lived without it, and I'm sure I can live without it again. Heck, I don't even glyph it these days. *shrug*

  5. #5
    make-or-break scenario of me continuing to play or not
    everytime someone tries to make a constructive feedback thread and adds that, it becomes a joke

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire Deithy's Avatar
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    I dont really see a problem here, except the removal of DF and Shatter, but i think thats irrelevant for leveling.

    Arcane explosin will be replaced by Flame Strike with the WoD perk - instant cast and no cooldown?
    Missing Blizzard for large packs AoE. Did i mentioned Flamestrike? Oh.. wait... Actualy combinig Flame strike and Blast wave will be a much more fun for fire AoE than spaming nonspec spells. My opinion of course. Feel free to bash me about it.
    You will not have Cone of Cold? Are you for real? CoC will be replaced by Dragon breath (or w/e was the name i dont think i recall right) with the almost the same mechanic - frontal cone of damage that incapacitate all targets affected. From my PoV thats pretty much the same benefit.
    Ring of frost is still there in the tallent tree.
    You will have hard time kiting as fire? Did u read about the scorch WoD perk? For PvP you will still have scorch for the totems and the spell reflects. Actualy if you have seen fire pvp 2p you will know that you will want to spam scorch in WoD PvP for both the perk and the 2p proc.
    I dont see problem with Mirror image either. Here is why - if a mage want to solo something he will use MI no matter what. No sane soloer will use the other 2 tallents for the things he will do. No one.
    About the healing - as people said you are not a healer. Thats why there was a nerf to the amount Evocation is healing and how its done (at the end of the cast), so if u want to heal with it you have to say and channel full duration. Don't explain me that you stay for 2 seconds when kiting huge pack of adds that what to rapekill you. Actualy in WoD you will have better mechanics to heal yourself, or more accurate said - to avoid damage, than it is now. And thats what blizzard said - "we want mages to be a class that can avoid damage, not heal throw it" i think the quote was.

    I am not playing fire at all and i know this much so far in the beta. You are playing fire and you play in the beta and you say stuff like that. I dont know what to say.

    BUT

    On one thing i agree. It will be DIFFERENT no doubt. If u are true mage you will do what mage do best - adapt, dont whine, because some stole your old toy and gave you new one that you dont like.
    Advice - Try the new one. I am most certain you will like it.
    Someone once told me not to bite off more than i can chew. I said i would rather choke on Greatness than nibble on Mediocrity.

  7. #7
    Actually ...
    The whole shattre combo stuff is what I hated on a Fire mage ... it just doesn't suite. It has allways been the frost gameplay and style not fires.
    I am glad it is gone, since if you want to play that type of gameplay, you can still play frost.

    Fire has always been for me the more direkt type of mage. You cast stuff and blow it up then. Your spells do more direkt damage but with less spikes like Frost.

    However one thing I am missing is the Evocation heal and icelance as a cheap totem stomper.

    Edit:
    Kiting as fire will be even more easy, scorch has a perk that increases movement speed by 30% for some seconds after casting scorch.
    Flamestrike is, in beta, not instant sadly. It has a casttime but due to a perk no cooldown anymore.

    However, you have access to blastwave (which does more damage than a fireball!) and Meteor.
    The combo Meteor -> Flamestrike -> blastwave does some crazy AoE damage
    Last edited by Talime; 2014-07-31 at 03:55 PM.

  8. #8
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    Actually ...
    The whole shattre combo stuff is what I hated on a Fire mage ... it just doesn't suite. It has allways been the frost gameplay and style not fires.
    I am glad it is gone, since if you want to play that type of gameplay, you can still play frost
    Just popped in here to say you can't really. You only get one direct spell off before any freeze effect (including DF)... shatters. *Ba-dum-tiss*

    In all seriousness though, Shatter is basically a thing of the past and just baked into FoF/BF.

  9. #9
    Tbh I understand where the original poster is comming from.

    I too would love the old blastwave back that radiates out of us and knocks people back.
    I love the fact that I am finally given back my "number 2 hotkey" blastwave but can't believe that I have to lose living bomb if I take it...

    Back on topic:

    Yes I too use all spells that are at my exposal in pvp. From Icelance to arcane explosion, blizzard and cone of cold.
    And Yes Fire is losing all of it and the shatter mechanic.

    But that's a good thing!

    I am tired of having to freeze people in order to kill them as a firemage -.-

    I am just worried that Fire isn't getting enough in return to make up for the loses!
    I saddly don't have a beta key so all I can so is hope that Blizzard adjusts our damage accordingly, taking into account that we lose shatter etc. (oh and maybe make hot streak/ heating up procs undisspellable)


    But no matter what happens, it will never be as much fun as wrath was...

    In wrath I was (what felt like) the only firemage player to spec into shatter and both "improve wards" talents in the frost and fire trees.
    They gave me a 35% (with the 5% minor glyphs) chance to reflect OR absorb (turn into mana) any fire or frost spell thrown at me when the wards were active.

    The number of times I reflected or absorbed deepfreezes, lava bursts or even chaos bolts (CB couldn't be absorbed only reflected) was amazing!!
    After every duel people were all like "what the hell?!? How did you do that?"

    Enough dreaming about the past...


    TLDR: yes fire is losing a lot of fun/utility...I just hope blizzard adds 1 or 2 more fire spells to compensate



    Edit: then again I haven't tested it so maybe fire doesn't need any more spells...
    The scorch speed buff perk is amazing (brings back good memories) and I think with the PoM change, blazing speed could be a new viable option for fire pvp so there is that...

    I actually would like the old firey payback mechanism to be brought back (maybe not one to one but something similar).
    I liked having really short cast time pyros when low on health...

    Also a quick question: is the 30% heal stating on coldsnap? I would love to spec into cauterize but with coldsnap giving you not only 2x iceblock + the heal, I just can't help but not wanting to nerfs myself by taking cauterize...
    Last edited by EcsKAZ; 2014-07-31 at 08:42 PM.

  10. #10
    Keyboard Turner Jstnclubb's Avatar
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    Hopefully fire is viable again and I can quit having to switch to Frost for raiding.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Just popped in here to say you can't really. You only get one direct spell off before any freeze effect (including DF)... shatters. *Ba-dum-tiss*

    In all seriousness though, Shatter is basically a thing of the past and just baked into FoF/BF.
    Bomb snapshotting begs to differ

  12. #12
    Dreadlord glowzone's Avatar
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    I agree, I can't play fire mage in wod beta at all at the moment, it just feels, empty, you went from having a tool for all occasions to close to nothing.

    Granted fire mage isn't the only one who has this problem at the moment, there's a lot of specs whene I play em I get the "That's really it?!'" feeling.

    I know I know, pruning needed to be done, but certain specs/classes feel perfectly fine after the pruning, while others feel like a lvl 12 character.
    But beta's beta.
    Last edited by glowzone; 2014-07-31 at 10:55 PM.

  13. #13
    they should just make 3 versions for all the spells. i like that idea with meteor/arcane orb/comet

  14. #14
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Bomb snapshotting begs to differ
    This is a WoD discussion where Bomb snapshotting will be gone. Even if it wasn't, Frost does not have access to any DoTs, and Shatter is Frost-only now.

    So either I'm missing some very VERY basic here, or you seem to think I was referring to live/MoP, which I'm not (as the title says "WoD").

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Just popped in here to say you can't really. You only get one direct spell off before any freeze effect (including DF)... shatters. *Ba-dum-tiss*

    In all seriousness though, Shatter is basically a thing of the past and just baked into FoF/BF.
    As far as I remember it has been that way since the begining.
    In BC a shattre combo was literaly 1 frostbolt + 1 Icelance after a Nova.

    The whole concept of icelance spam was not realy a thing.
    Back in those days you didn't proc fingers of frost but each slow effect had a chance to proc a freeze which than you used for one single attack.



    Edit:
    Concernin blastwave:

    I don't understand where the issue is with Blastwave being a skill that works on the enemy, but as far as I remember (have to check that) if you use blastwave on yourself, it will work like a nova.

    However, Blastwave is a massive damage skill. It does more damage than a fully casted fireball, instant.
    Im checking right now and report back.


    edit2:

    Ok I have checked it:

    If you use blastwave with yourself as a target (maybe crate a macro /cast [target=self] Blast wave; the wave will act with you as the center.

    However, if you use it on a target, the target enemy gets 100% more damage from blastwave.
    This damage is HUGE.
    As a vomparison:
    My Pyroblast crits for like 16k currently , Blastwave crits for 25k.
    Blastwave even outdamages Pyroblast, that spell is an absolute killer.
    Last edited by Talime; 2014-08-01 at 08:33 AM.

  16. #16
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    As far as I remember it has been that way since the begining.
    In BC a shattre combo was literaly 1 frostbolt + 1 Icelance after a Nova.
    I know that, and even using a non-DF freeze effect nowadays gets instantly broken by DoTs or your allies hitting the target, too. I was more referring to Deep Freeze, which has become a crippled "stun", hence why I said "Shatter is a thing of the past", especially with it being Frost only and having 0 spells that last more than one direct spell. I meant to say "even though Frost has Shatter, it does little outside of FoF/BF".

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I know that, and even using a non-DF freeze effect nowadays gets instantly broken by DoTs or your allies hitting the target, too. I was more referring to Deep Freeze, which has become a crippled "stun", hence why I said "Shatter is a thing of the past", especially with it being Frost only and having 0 spells that last more than one direct spell. I meant to say "even though Frost has Shatter, it does little outside of FoF/BF".
    That is basically true but it is not different from current live gameplay, so what is the point anyway?

    If anything than its beneficial to fire mages that shatter is gone because of that problem. Fire Mages are no longer dependend on them.
    Also crits are way higher in WoD. With the current season 1 PvP gear my char wears I have around 30% crit with firespells. Not counting buffs like the fireball perk into it which increases the chance even further.
    You realy don't need shatter.

    In PvP you have a Setbonus which grants your fireball 15% crit and haste for each scorch you cast (stacs 3 times) so after 3 scorches your fireball will pretty much always crit.


    Fire looks extremly well made and solid on beta right now.
    It combines the strengths and the gameplay of MoP firemages but with the lack of hassle and unsuiting gameplay shatter brings into it.

    Fire is once again a spec with alot of front loaded damage, it has burst capabilities but the overall damage is way higher than frosts. I'd say fire mages are aligning abit more into the destruction lock direction where you won't want a fire mage to be able to cast freely or you will literally experienceing hell.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EcsKAZ View Post

    Also a quick question: is the 30% heal stating on coldsnap? I would love to spec into cauterize but with coldsnap giving you not only 2x iceblock + the heal, I just can't help but not wanting to nerfs myself by taking cauterize...
    Coldnsap "only" heals for 22% HP anymore, but this combined with 2 iceblocks (There is a glpyh where you will be healed for 4% each second your in iceblock)
    I think it is still the only smart option to spec in.
    Especially if you consider that the evocation healing glyph is gone.
    Last edited by Talime; 2014-08-01 at 08:58 AM.

  18. #18
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    <snip>
    The original guy I quoted said "if you want that gameplay, you can still do it as Frost", to which I had a very stupid and confusingly worded reply, which I just meant to say "No, you can't, because DF is turning to shit".

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    The original guy I quoted said "if you want that gameplay, you can still do it as Frost", to which I had a very stupid and confusingly worded reply, which I just meant to say "No, you can't, because DF is turning to shit".
    Just because of DF changing, it doesn't take away the shatter gameplay.
    You still have finger of frost and if speced 2 ice novas, you could spec into RoF or Iceward (which now has 3 charges) you will have enough shatter opportunities left.

    DF was just one tool out of the toolbox and it is still there.

  20. #20
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    Just because of DF changing, it doesn't take away the shatter gameplay.
    You still have finger of frost and if speced 2 ice novas, you could spec into RoF or Iceward (which now has 3 charges) you will have enough shatter opportunities left.

    DF was just one tool out of the toolbox and it is still there.
    Fingers of Frost is not Shatter gameplay, just to be clear.

    Secondly, the damage threshold for all of the freezes you listed is so low that it really makes Shatter not worthwhile. DF is the linchpin in that style of play and now the 'break on damage' means that Shatter is fairly superfluous as a passive, considering its benefits can be rolled into Brain Freeze and Fingers of Frost.

    Then again, I'm not entirely sure this is a bad thing considering the loss of Shatter reduces the advantage that Frost has as regards the Level 45 talents.
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