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  1. #1

    Some DK is giving me flak for not hitting my sim dps

    A DK post his sim dps (in unholy spec) and claims to be achieving a higher dps (on malkorok) vs. his sim. Claims that because he out do his sim, he is outperforming.

    I'm okay with that till he starts posting my sim dps and claiming that I'm not hitting my sim.

    I did some check with a few top warriors on patchwork fights like iron, malkorok and siegecrafter and it appears to me that realistically it is very difficult for us to hit our sim.

    My theory is that it really depends on how the module is created for each class. Think collision can best explain the concept of actual dps vs simcraft and whether we should realistically be achieving our sim dps on fights like malkorok for eg.

    Edit: I confess I feel bad that my rant brought quite alot of attention , more so than I had anticipated. In my moment of anger, I didn't consider that I was airing some guild matters public which on hindsight I wouldn't have. Should have crafted my thread with greater care. Main purpose of this is to discuss Sims as a benchmark of performance and whether realistically we should be hitting our sims based on the base assumptions. Would prefer posts not to degrade down towards sliming that DK. He did talk to me yesterday claiming that he was just joking around. I myself have vented and no longer harbor any unhappiness towards him.
    Last edited by senturion; 2013-10-08 at 02:39 AM.

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Tell him to shut up? If his to stupid to understand how sims work he isn't worth trying to argue with.
    Last edited by eddytheone; 2013-10-08 at 06:08 PM. Reason: I get your point but try keep it a *little* more friendly
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  3. #3
    Mechagnome
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    unless your in the top .01% of players youll never hit your sim

    even then....idk lmao
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  4. #4
    Sims are nice for a guideline of where your DPS should be, but not many/or any can actually hit what the sims tell them their best performance can be. I would also be wondering if he is using the old version of simulationcraft, I think a new one came out today. A lock in my guild was pulling higher than the sims could evaluate for him and figured that it wasn't right, until the latest one came out and proved that statement.

  5. #5
    Top .01%...rofl...sim's don't do dot refreshes based on procs or alter priorities based on prediction of movement/positioning alterations unless you edit them to. Sim's are ALWAYS on the low end of what you should be doing. Not hitting them on something like malkorok is just poor play.
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  6. #6
    He took heroic weapon 2H and is the highest Ilv. Posts his sim dps at 278k and claims to be outperforming his sim.

    Bloody hell I'm fine till he started posting my sim dps and making claims how he is outperforming

    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Tell him to shut the fuck up? If his to stupid to understand how sims work he isn't worth trying to argue with.
    Last edited by senturion; 2013-10-08 at 02:26 AM.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wycked View Post
    Top .01%...rofl...sim's don't do dot refreshes based on procs or alter priorities based on prediction of movement/positioning alterations unless you edit them to. Sim's are ALWAYS on the low end of what you should be doing. Not hitting them on something like malkorok is just poor play.
    Oh beware. You remind me of a bad female warlock I once met. She couldn´t be kicked out of the rooster because she was the girlfriend of the guildleader. Poor little Lisa. Always nagging about EVERYTHING hindered her from doing good dps (exept herself of course) just to be dropped faster then greased lightning after she broke up with the leader. *sigh*
    And just to clarify. You are right. Sims do not alter priorities based on movement or positioning. That´s why sims always calculate the optimal case. How do you conclude out of that, that it is the LOW end of what you should be doing?

    Edit: Speak to your officers. Obviously he is leeching and tocix for the raidenviroment. There is nothing worse for any community then someone with a bloated ego. just look at Wycked.

    Keep it civil, please. - Senen
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-10-07 at 03:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  8. #8
    On malkorok I sometimes get out of hit box when soaking up the pool. Also, running out when u have the debuff etc.

    And by your logic, I think alot of warriors are underperforming.

    Also, do you even play warrior? Or a melee class? To make such a condescending statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wycked View Post
    Top .01%...rofl...sim's don't do dot refreshes based on procs or alter priorities based on prediction of movement/positioning alterations unless you edit them to. Sim's are ALWAYS on the low end of what you should be doing. Not hitting them on something like malkorok is just poor play.

  9. #9
    Don't look at sims so much as logs. Sims are good for Patchwerk, and that's really about it.

    Oh yeah, and tell him to STFU. Link this page to him and we'll let him know how stupid he is.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goondicker View Post
    Link this page to him and we'll let him know how stupid he is.

    love whent his happens some ones like YEAH ME GEWD U BAD....look at their armory and theyre utter dog shit lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferg View Post
    sometimes when im alone i like to cover myself in vaseline and pretend im a slug
    Quote Originally Posted by Root View Post
    I like to glue my thumbs to my nipples and pretend I'm a T-Rex.

  11. #11
    And your guild leaders should beware about prioritizing a jackass like this for loot. In my experience, guys like him are the first to leave when things don't go their way.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire
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    Simulated dps is usually the average of several iterations. There's a high and low of what you can do, even if you play perfectly. That said, for a lot of specs its not even a useful measure if the sims for your spec isn't given proper development. I have no clue how accurate sims are for warriors.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    Oh beware. You remind me of a bad female warlock I once met. She couldn´t be kicked out of the rooster because she was the girlfriend of the guildleader. Poor little Lisa. Always nagging about EVERYTHING hindered her from doing good dps (exept herself of course) just to be dropped faster then greased lightning after she broke up with the leader. *sigh*
    And just to clarify. You are right. Sims do not alter priorities based on movement or positioning. That´s why sims always calculate the optimal case. How do you conclude out of that, that it is the LOW end of what you should be doing?
    Your absolutely right, my lowly 11/14H ass knows nothing about simcraft.

    If you're going to argue with me, try being right.

    Post constructively, please. - Senen
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-10-07 at 03:56 PM.
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  14. #14
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
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    You got 13/13H and you made a thread like this? You should both know enough about sims and your characters in that position to realise the whole thing is just silly. :|

    If you wanted to be "funny" about it, you could post the relative uptimes and ability use from logs so we can see how good the better-than-sim DK is. Though the actual logs might be classed as naming and shaming, so... Be careful. And also your own, no reason not to improve since you can't hit your sim dps.
    Last edited by Soisoisoi; 2013-10-07 at 04:36 AM.

  15. #15
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wycked View Post
    Your absolutely right, my lowly 11/14H ass knows nothing about simcraft.

    If you're going to argue with me, try being right.
    You can be 14/14H, still doesn't change that simcraft outputs a range, with the high and low end. If that class has been given the proper development time, it probably does the optimal rotation.

  16. #16
    H nazgrim progression kill. All melee except rogues and feral told to switch on adds. This DK decided to go tunnel boss. 72% damage on boss whilst the rest are like 50+%. This fella probably sneaked hits thru defensive stance too when RL told everyone to stop. Irritating bugger. Then again he claims he is top performing strength melee. 2m dps on warshaman (I did like 14m) and his top add dps is on the sniper add? He is definitely tunneling and only hitting adds during defensive phase.

    Probably this kind of mentality never soaks pool on malkorok

  17. #17
    Because it's super hard to hit sim dps on a DK, right?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    You can be 14/14H, still doesn't change that simcraft outputs a range, with the high and low end. If that class has been given the proper development time, it probably does the optimal rotation.
    High end-perfect procs with no alterations to rotation based on mechanics
    Low end-godaweful procs with no alterations to to rotation based on mechanics

    Proper development doesn't account for the varying ways dps can be manipulated in your favor on any encounter by deviating from the assigned simcraft rotation.
    The only way to be below your simc number on something like malkorok is to be making inappropriate alterations to your rotation based on incorrectly perceived mechanics. (IE SCREWING UP)

    If you're going to argue with me, try being right.
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  19. #19
    Simcraft modules are created differently from class to class. I understand it to be more of a tool for checking gear upgrades within a class rather than across classes.

    I'm not sure if you are making comments based off your shadow priest or your DK. Since you talk about refreshing dots based on procs, probably your shadow priest. For certain classes, eg warlock, shadow, sim is probably on the lower end since most good players have alot of room to max dps vs sim since there's alot of discretion on when to refresh based on proc. for the sim module, my guess the module simply assumes an average. And there are trinkets like UVLS which again is difficult to model and thus creates a wider divergence between actual vs sim. It depends on the module maker assumptions.


    So before you understand how warrior sim models are created maybe you shouldn't be so condescending? And 11/14H doesn't give you a right to talk down on others.

    Warrior sim as I understand, simulates based on perfect rotation with 100% uptime on boss. As I've pointed out given movement and mechanics, even the most "patchwork" fights have movements and mechanics that makes it hard to achieve the 100% uptime our fury module assumes.

    Stop talking down on others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wycked View Post
    Your absolutely right, my lowly 11/14H ass knows nothing about simcraft.

    If you're going to argue with me, try being right.
    Last edited by senturion; 2013-10-07 at 05:19 AM.

  20. #20
    Simulations-Craft is only as good as the people who are programming it. The Fury and Arms models in Sim-C is made mainly by Collision, but with the help of several other people in the warrior community (Myself included). Most likely there are things that can be improved, and it's constantly being altered to try and fix any problems or malfunctions there may be in the module, but the actual rotational part of the Fury and Arms sims are as close to perfect as we can get it (without making it overly complicated).

    When people say Sim-DPS they are usually referring to the numbers that you see next to your Char on Wow-Progress. The numbers you see there are based on the latest version (5.4) of Sim-C, it's modeling a 450 seconds patchwerk fight, and it's doing 1000 iterations. What this means is that the numbers that you see on their site is the average value your Char got simed at over the 1000 iterations that was made. If you sim yourself you can, by default, do up to 50 000 iterations, meaning you can get 50x more accurate values by siming yourself.

    Another feature that most people don't know of is that Sim-C can model more things then just a simple patchwerk fight. By default there are 6 other modes you can chose from that will alter the way your Char will "perform" in Sim-C. For example, you can sim your Char with the "Ultraxion" Fight Style instead of "Patchwerk", which means that Sim-C will add some damage taken every few seconds, meaning you can get extra rage from Berserker Stance.

    If you're willing to put the time in to learn and really work with Simulations Craft, you will find out that it can do a lot more then simply saying how much DPS you should be doing. Simulations Craft is only as good as the people who are programming it, and there more of us who work and try to improve it, the better, and more accurate it will become.
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