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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by re1gn1te View Post
    I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't out dps/heal/tank a keybinder(a non-retard one at least).
    I think life long key binders, if they tried to click things find it about as clumsy as trying to write with their left hand. I don't see how people play First Person Shooters with a gamepad on a console. My son loves Call of Duty and he plays on the PS3, I can't can't kill anything. Now switch the the medium and play on a PC and I'm rofl stomping him all over the place. I use to mock and laugh at Console FPS people, but watching some of the really good players, I do have a fair amount of respect for them. They can pull off some pretty impressive feats using a gamepad, which I find to be a really clumsy device for FPSes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post

    DO NOT let anyone tell you that key board turning is bad. Yes, technically, mouse turning is a bit more flexible because you can 360 on the spot, but all that does is add a tiny bit of pewpew in Arena. Completely unnecessary for PvE. Of course, I can't do that dance just standing there and mouse spinning.
    Sadly, I don't think a keyboard turning would do very well in the brawlers guild on the Rank 8 fight (Hexos) in which you must constantly be turning. If they ever made a raidboss that had such an requirement, it could be a real problem for them
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-10-08 at 02:47 PM.

  2. #202
    I'm an LFR hero.

    But I mean that in the fullest sense. I watch raid videos, learn strats. I'm the guy that clears a wing once its released because I prepped for it and lead an LFR through all the encounters. I am an LFR tank and leader.

    My only addons are DBM and Atlas-loot. I thought about getting Omen for threat, but then I was too derp to keep updating it after I was getting LUA errors.

    Anyways, if you activate the left action bar, you'll see that some of the keys are pre-bound for you, like F, E, and Q. I also have R and C bound. Other than that, I click.
    I simply have too many abilities to try and hotkey, and remember successfully, but I can keep track of my main four. For everything else, I click.

    DO NOT let anyone tell you that key board turning is bad. Yes, technically, mouse turning is a bit more flexible because you can 360 on the spot, but all that does is add a tiny bit of pewpew in Arena. Completely unnecessary for PvE.

    Key binds may be useful for Melee classes that don't have huge cast timers and thus need to fill their ability queue, but for casters, this is easily done while casting something for two seconds.

    You're perfectly capable of getting pretty far into regular and some Heroic Raiding as a Blizz UI/Clicker and anyone telling you otherwise is just trying to make you feel less skilled to boost their epeen.

  3. #203
    Field Marshal apeiiron's Avatar
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    Razer N52TE. Along with a Naga, i only use my G15 keyboard to chat.

  4. #204
    Some advice for clickers wanting to try key binding:

    1. Recognize you don't have to key everything. Many will tell you to but if you use an ability once or less on a standard 7 min then dont worry. Also buffs don't need to key bound for same reason.

    2. Keybind one spell a week, starting with the "filler" spell you use the most. Ele sham key lightbolt, fire Mage key fireball, holy play do holy light. Work your way up the priority list every week until all your basic rotation is key bound. Don't feel pressure to do to many at once.

    3. Keep binding until you find a balance that feels good. This will probably be 4-6 abilities and an interrupt.

    BONUS: get a mouse with 2 side buttons. These end up being very very easy to use because chances are your thumb on mouse was not doing anything. My advice; one should be an interrupt and one should be a dispel/ spell you use conditionally ( pyroblasts when it is instant or earth shock at 7 stacks )
    Last edited by Txiv; 2013-10-08 at 03:57 PM.

  5. #205
    Mechagnome Supakaiser's Avatar
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    So many of these arguments in favor of clicking are littered with relativity.

    "My friend is a clicker and he is top DPS" -- Of what? a 3/14 normal guild on a backwater server? Provide perspective (logs, location, etc...)

    "I clicked all throughout <expansion> and I cleared heroic bosses too on the top guild on our server" -- What server? What population? Were the heroics cleared during the end of the xpac where a raid might have had a 30% nerf?

    etc....

    Those sorts of statements just kind of bother me if not put into any sort of perspective.

  6. #206
    Stood in the Fire
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    I started out as a clicker when I played EQ back in the day but the second I got the memory muscle down for keybinds, gaming was so much more fun, not to mention it was more enjoyable to play watching my character as well as the raid as opposed to looking at my bars.

    As a prot paladin, I use the G510 keyboard and the newest Razer Naga. Every G key on the keyboard has it's own spell binding as well as on the naga. I couldn't imagine ever going back to clicking my abilities.

    Sure a clicker can be a good player but you're I would argue against anyone being as efficient and effective as someone that doesn't need to constantly look at their bars.

  7. #207
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supakaiser View Post
    So many of these arguments in favor of clicking are littered with relativity.

    "My friend is a clicker and he is top DPS" -- Of what? a 3/14 normal guild on a backwater server? Provide perspective (logs, location, etc...)

    "I clicked all throughout <expansion> and I cleared heroic bosses too on the top guild on our server" -- What server? What population? Were the heroics cleared during the end of the xpac where a raid might have had a 30% nerf?

    etc....

    Those sorts of statements just kind of bother me if not put into any sort of perspective.
    Using epeenbots as a reference, I've had more than a handful of 95% logs (unfortunately the guild I believe I played my best in through wrath had private logs), during current pre-nerf content on normal and heroic.

    But instead of being skeptical about achievements, ask yourself why a clicker couldn't get these? What is so hard? I admit my performance has dropped significantly since wrath/4.0 and I tend to not always complete heroic tiers pre-nerf these more recent tiers due to having made my own more social guild, but it's not like clicking was the reason I dropped, I clicked back then too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #208
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    On a typical pull.

    Running in. Nothing targeted run in, get sacred shield ticking,pop initial pot, judge initial target via mouseover macro, frisbee second target via mouseover macro keybind, taunt a fifth target in via mouse over macro keybind, drop a hop on the over zealous melee via mouse over macro keybind, concecrate, shield of the righteous initial target as it moves into melee range, pan camera around to ensure everybody else is where they need to be.

    As opposed to

    Run in. Click on a mob. Move mouse back down to bar. Click sacred shield. Move mouse over to pot button. Click pot. Move mouse to inistal target. Click target. Move mouse to judgment button. Click judgment button. Move mouse to secondary target. Click secondary target. Move mouse to frisbee button. Click Frisbee button. Move mouse to fifth target. Click fifth target. Move mouse to reckoning button. Click reconling button. Move mouse to over zealous melee. Click over zelous melee. Move mouse to hop button. Click hop button. Move mouse to concecrate button. Click concecrate. Find inital target. Move mouse to initial target. Click inital target. Move mouse to shield of the righteous button. Click shield of the righteous. Pan camera aroudn to ensure everbody else is where they need to be, while struggling to maintain my rotation because my cursor is nowhere near the buttons I need to click.
    Run in. Right click mob. Move mouse to bar. Click abilities which are all next to each other in the usual order. When you want to move the camera, move your mouse very fractionally up, hold down right click and move camera (this will take less time than the GCD.) Move mouse fractioanlly back down to bar, carry on playing with no pauses. Check where everyone is using mini map.

    Looks to me like a lot of people see a big increase in performance when they go keybinder more because they are shit at clicking than because keybind is inherently super awesome.

    Keybinding is best for healers, it's great when i am resto druiding, but for dps? Makes feck all difference if you don't plan your fight like badly. Tanks? lol you've got ages as long as you keep threat.

    All these "keybinds let you react faster" posters? In pve why are you reacting to anything? The fight should be known to you already. DBM timers, weakauras yadda yadda.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Supakaiser View Post
    So many of these arguments in favor of clicking are littered with relativity.

    "My friend is a clicker and he is top DPS" -- Of what? a 3/14 normal guild on a backwater server? Provide perspective (logs, location, etc...)

    "I clicked all throughout <expansion> and I cleared heroic bosses too on the top guild on our server" -- What server? What population? Were the heroics cleared during the end of the xpac where a raid might have had a 30% nerf?

    etc....

    Those sorts of statements just kind of bother me if not put into any sort of perspective.
    The question wasn't "can you be the best in the world clicking?" it was "anyone else doing heroic raiding while being a clicker and being fine and dandy?"

    And the answer is loads of people do just fine while clicking. No, it's not absolutely optimal. But that's ok, theres no need to be absolutely optimal just to clear stuff, even on heroic modes. World first racers, sure. Everyone else it doesn't matter for much.
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  9. #209
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    The main thing is you can be successful as a clicker but most of the evidence will be anecdotal "I top dps in my raids" so for that specific player they are doing fine for there environment. There is a reason you don't see the top world raiders clicking as it has a coupel of negatives that keybinding don't.

    1) Off GCD spells are much faster activated and used in conjunction with on GCD abilities while keybinding. The best example is Heroic leap as you also have to target it and clicking it then placing the target activating it and then returning mouse to click gcd ability is slower than doing your reg rotation while moving mouse to where you want to go hitting keybind for HL and continuing rotation for example.

    2) Mouse over macros... well untill some one can explain how you pull that off with clicking there not possible and as such a oretty big negative for things like intervene, using vig on a target, taunting etc.

    3) Movement heavy fights ..sure you could keyboard move but that will reduce the rate at wich you can turn fast and react again... can be done but it's far from optimal and normally where clicking's down fall really stands out.


    Again you can most deff be successful in your personal gaming exp clicking. However I view it like this --> I could play footie in my sneakers no problem however if the field was wet running in them would suck and I could do a lot better with spikes! Why would I purposefuly not wear spikes if I knew they could help even just a little bit? Might not be playing in the premier legue but still in the beer legue you still want to perform as well as you can....then again there will be others in there sneakers going "meh I still do fine when it's wet for my team".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    R Tanks? lol you've got ages as long as you keep threat..
    Tanks just focus on threat these days? News to me!

  10. #210
    Epic! twistedsista's Avatar
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    i click.
    i have tried keybindings, but i just cant get on with them. i play a healer, so maybe thats why i still do pretty good HPS.

  11. #211
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post

    Tanks just focus on threat these days? News to me!
    I'm glad you agree with the rest of my post.

    yes, tanks do more than just threat, but as long as they have threat it's not super crucial for 99% of the playerbase if they miss a few attacks here and there. Tanks are the class that can "get away" with clicking the most.

    Again, lets all ignore the "method don't click" rubbish because it's not what the OP is about.
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  12. #212
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    The main thing is you can be successful as a clicker but most of the evidence will be anecdotal "I top dps in my raids" so for that specific player they are doing fine for there environment. There is a reason you don't see the top world raiders clicking as it has a coupel of negatives that keybinding don't.
    Probably because clicking is much more affected by high quality streaming than keybinds are.

    1) Off GCD spells are much faster activated and used in conjunction with on GCD abilities while keybinding. The best example is Heroic leap as you also have to target it and clicking it then placing the target activating it and then returning mouse to click gcd ability is slower than doing your reg rotation while moving mouse to where you want to go hitting keybind for HL and continuing rotation for example.
    Granted, but the difference is 0.1~seconds. You will get a larger dps increase from not being so egotistical about being a keybinder (j/k), well from preparing so you are focused before the raid and don't slip up or react late.

    2) Mouse over macros... well untill some one can explain how you pull that off with clicking there not possible and as such a oretty big negative for things like intervene, using vig on a target, taunting etc.
    If you've played a lot of indie games you'd know how, it's by being able to control a mouse well. If you really struggle there are ways you can make your mouse "port" to a spot (a la graphics tablet used as mouse or mouse that works similar), the spot being defined by your pad. I would recommend having a mouse pad or similar for this so you don't have to concentrate on it, although it probably comes with practice anyway. Regardless the hardware isn't needed if you have good mouse control.

    3) Movement heavy fights ..sure you could keyboard move but that will reduce the rate at wich you can turn fast and react again... can be done but it's far from optimal and normally where clicking's down fall really stands out.
    Only fight that covers this is hexos, as I believe you need good RNG to make it solely with keybinds and are better off mouse turning the whole thing (never tested just killed it mouse turning). Stuff like Al'akir hc, mimiron firefighter, alysrazor hc, all easy to handle. Did you know you can bind strafe? (and it's bound by default)


    Again you can most deff be successful in your personal gaming exp clicking. However I view it like this --> I could play footie in my sneakers no problem however if the field was wet running in them would suck and I could do a lot better with spikes! Why would I purposefuly not wear spikes if I knew they could help even just a little bit? Might not be playing in the premier legue but still in the beer legue you still want to perform as well as you can....then again there will be others in there sneakers going "meh I still do fine when it's wet for my team".
    Well if you're just playing with friends and you find the spikes awkward you could just wear sneakers for comfort.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #213
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I'm glad you agree with the rest of my post.

    yes, tanks do more than just threat, but as long as they have threat it's not super crucial for 99% of the playerbase if they miss a few attacks here and there. Tanks are the class that can "get away" with clicking the most.

    Again, lets all ignore the "method don't click" rubbish because it's not what the OP is about.
    We will agree to dissagree as I find tanks have the least amount of space to "get away" with clicking as there is so much you SHOULD be doing. You got threat? good , Are you ensuring you have damage mitigation up and or pooling resources to keep mitigation? Good now are you min maxing your rotation to increase your dps as much as possible?good. I believe the last part is where many will just go "meh dps is doing fine I just got to stay alive" and for myself...thats just not good enough! Tanks can contribute to a good chunk of dps in a raid now and if you arent min maxing your dps like the rest of the DPS then you are failing as a tank and are just doing part of what you should! As a prot was procs and min maxing make keybinding a godsend as well as abilities off the gcd!

    I would love to see a vid from a prot war clicking if you can find one on normal modes by all means please share the link. I'm no heroic raider myself and even I can't immagine clicking being "fine" for a prot war in normals.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Well if you're just playing with friends and you find the spikes awkward you could just wear sneakers for comfort.
    Not in me to choose comfort > potential improovement. If I know I could be doing better with the change then I will make the change and get use to it... it would drive me nuts knowing I have an option to do better and yet not choose it.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Larger factors than clicking vs keybinding for 2 players performance:
    GEAR
    Knowledge of class/abilities/enemies
    Proc RNG
    Spatial Awareness
    How team members are performing
    IRL distractions
    Hogger
    Yeah so as I said a non-retard keybinder will outplay the clicker. Also gear? I mean the game is based around gear we have to assume both players are equally geared or else you also have to take into account level, because my auto attacking afk level 90 will out dps the best keybinder level 20 in the world 100% of the time.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by twistedsista View Post
    i click.
    i have tried keybindings, but i just cant get on with them. i play a healer, so maybe thats why i still do pretty good HPS.
    Just keeping your HPS/DPS rotation if you are standing in one spot the whole fight is no problem but if you have to do the fight mechanics while you do what you are suppose to do, you will have a problem if you are clicking buttons.

  16. #216
    It pains me having to deal with the 2 clickers in my raid , we raid heroics and their dps definently suffers because of it. It's a miracle how well our shadow priest does (especially being a multi dot class) while clicking. his dps would go up 30k if he didnt click. Our warlock does terrible numbers for his 551 item level and he is also a clicker and boy does it show, especially on fights like heroic primordius. Very very painful.

    I remember raiding with clickers/keyboard turners on hard mode yogg-saron and having them run into clouds continually because of keyboard turning. ugh the pain, it hurts to think about it .

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Succath View Post
    I`m doing so in my current guild without them knowing i`m actually clicking most of my abilities.
    I do agree though that for example in pvp i would be dead in seconds opposed to people who key bind.
    However in PVE its a different story.

    now it is something i`m experienced in since i have been doing this from late 2005.
    DPS/ Tank/ Healing, I have done it all and in the guilds i was in i was always in the top5 when it came to DPS, top3 for healing and never wiped a raid due to being a clicker as tank.

    Now i dont have any aspiration to run Heroics normal is just fine for me and perhaps i would have issues in heroic. but if that would be the case i might give it a go. for now its not needed to perform well.
    And there we have it, you're playing your class subpar and doing easy content, I guess to you that might be successful. To me that wouldn't cut it, as people that don't know their class very well, don't know the rotation etc etc also do and clear normals. Now I'm not saying there are no heroic raiders that click, because there are, it's just better to keybind 100% of the time. We had a clicker tank in my run, he was replaced quite quickly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Supakaiser View Post
    So many of these arguments in favor of clicking are littered with relativity.

    "My friend is a clicker and he is top DPS" -- Of what? a 3/14 normal guild on a backwater server? Provide perspective (logs, location, etc...)

    "I clicked all throughout <expansion> and I cleared heroic bosses too on the top guild on our server" -- What server? What population? Were the heroics cleared during the end of the xpac where a raid might have had a 30% nerf?

    etc....

    Those sorts of statements just kind of bother me if not put into any sort of perspective.
    Can't agree more with this post. I don't think anyone is saying you can't raid at all with clicking, it's just better to keybind.

  18. #218
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    We will agree to dissagree as I find tanks have the least amount of space to "get away" with clicking as there is so much you SHOULD be doing.
    Sorry, not going to agree to disagree here. Tanks have the most room of all the classes to miss hitting buttons. This is just how it is.
    You got threat? good , Are you ensuring you have damage mitigation up and or pooling resources to keep mitigation? Good now are you min maxing your rotation to increase your dps as much as possible?good. I believe the last part is where many will just go "meh dps is doing fine I just got to stay alive" and for myself...thats just not good enough! Tanks can contribute to a good chunk of dps in a raid now and if you arent min maxing your dps like the rest of the DPS then you are failing as a tank and are just doing part of what you should! As a prot was procs and min maxing make keybinding a godsend as well as abilities off the gcd!
    Yeah but it's not essential, and it doesn't matter (except for if you are in method etc) so tanks can get away with missing stuff the most.

    Tank has threat? All is well, even if they miss a few attacks here and there. Dps miss dps? Well that's the point of dps gone then, isn't it? Healers miss heals? oh look, dead folks. Tanks have the most leeway, end of story.
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  19. #219
    i used to be a clicker and a tank back in TBC and wrath - but towards the end of wrath (or maybe even in cata) i got myself a razer naga and it changed my life.

    back in tbc there really weren't that many abilities i needed to use and i could lay them all out in sequential order, in wotlk, you could actually macro the tanking rotation to 1 key if you wanted to. so i was at no great loss.

    nowadays with active mitigation and a crapload more abilities to bind, i wouldn't do it. i still click a lot of my cooldowns, but practically all my rotational abilities are keybound to my naga.

    but, tbh, i'm not a hardcore raider and when i was, i was fast enough and accurate enough with the mouse that it didn't really matter much - i'd always be clicking away on the next ability before it came off GCD, but then as a prot paladin, it really wasn't that complicated.

    if i were playing a warrior tank, i would've likely had no other choice than to keybind.
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  20. #220
    Field Marshal Bareback's Avatar
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    Heh, back in Vanilla I clicked AND used the arrow keys to move(played a Hunter so normally I could just right click a boss and afk), WoW was my first PC game ever besides Myst, before WoW I had been a strict Playstation gamer and had a hard time with the keyboard. There were just SO many keys and having been restricted to just a stick and four buttons for years I found it impossible to even think about keybinding(I also didn't even know you could or that WASD keys were available for movement). But then one of my friends decided it would be a good idea to bring my Hunter in for UBRS to kite General. God save us all... I was so not ready for that. All I could do was hit distracting shot and run like a bitch, which I did, but I could NOT get to my FD button with my mouse whent he RL called for me to, I ended up doing laps in Beasts room swearing in no specific language before the ENTIRE raid showed up, laughing over TS. After that I sat down with the friend that had invited me and asked him for help, since then I've never clicked again.

    I have no problem with people who click, until their clicking causes a problem, which hasn't happened often, but it HAS happened. People being stupid has caused more problems though. q:

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