1. #1

    What i actually miss , a few ideas .

    I have some spare time and wanted to share an opinion .
    Its about old wow or vanilla . As every thread of this starts ill say its not about , "give 60 realms" wow was better .

    I wanted to share what i think was good back then :
    Hard things , not cos they were hard or annoying but cos they were a time sink , and as such it didnt felt mandatory to do them . For example reputation , someone remember's Timbermaw hold ? It was a insane grind with little rep per kill , and actually 0 after which transformed into turning in some drops , and could last weeks .

    Item colours , green was green (pretty bad) Blue items were great they were blue "rare" nothing fancy but the difference was tha having a nice blue drop made people happy , and finding a purple (even a useless world drop , or a 40 50 level one) wasnt gamebreaking but it was Fun as a "mount drop" sort of feeling now . It wasnt broken by any means but it made you feel acomplished or lucky . Getting full purple in vanilla or Tbc took a bit of effort .
    Now those colors for gear lost its meaning , only acceptable item to wear is purple and there are so many of them we sell em every day to vendor .

    Attunement chain's or quests , its true only small % of people saw vanilla raid's in vanilla but it kept them going knowing there is MORE , there is something still to see or to discover . Even checking those raids in tbc when you were 10 levels above was actually rewarding ... Ragnaros and onyxia were leggends , cos little people actually saw them . Now raids are fun , complex mechanic and good loot but everyone see them asap , there is little left to explore or to work for , yes we have gear to get , but its a "farm thing" run it x times to get it , there is no mystery anymore or things to aim for apart "better gear" which we trasmog anyway .

    Dungeons they kinda got easy , i know people still wipe sometimes , and we have chalenge modes (btw one of the best ideas ever) but theyre actually easy :|
    Someone remembers tbc ones ? (vanilla baron run's maybe were way to much ) but tbc ones , shattered halls for example or the one other ones . They were kinda hard , even after need some attention for tanks and some cc . And they droped nice items . For example mats necesarry to craft epic loot from raid recipes . Maybe scale heroic dungeons with gear and scale rewards aswell ? I loved also ICC 3 last dungeons ...

    Tryed to keep it simple and short to make it easier to read (btw sorry i know i suck at english and grammar in general)
    So about rep ... Maybe make it a bit longer sort of timeless isle ? I mean start at hostile or neutral somewhere ... make it hard like getting to honored to be like exalted atm . And put all "must have" rewards at honored , so people dont need to waste time more then they do now . But add certain stuff to revered and exalted ABSOLUTELY mandatory (need good thinking here) but i mean to have actual rep levels mean something , honored , youre honored among that faction and get rewards ... But let exalted mean youre actually something more or special !

    Attunement stuff , maybe keep it ingame somehow ? I mean it makes old content not so obsolete , and keeps some stuff take longer to reach . With all the tool's lfr and stuff , getting into content isnt hard , people still do mogushan , but cos they must pass trough it . But making it mandatory a bit and usefull somehow , would make people want to return ? (still needs thinking but my 2 coins )

    Lfr , now lfr is good and bad , good everyone sees stuff kills bosses , bad it lacks personality imho , people go there only to get stuff done :| And the rewards are kinda always lacking , i mean one will never ever get "normal drop" , maybe make LFR dont award sub par items , but better items tho getting them be harder ? Like add 5% of possibility that a item wont have LFR quality but Normal one ? and 1% possibility that it would be HC quality ?
    (% from item drops not from boss , i mean if a item has 30% to dro for you divide it by 20 to get a chance for a normal item) So runing lfr would have a meaning always ?
    Or make a boss drop a piece with a certain chance , and by gathering 10 pieces from same boss you can get the item of normal quality , takes 10 times more but you have something good at the end of it ...
    Instead of vendoring same necklace again and again i would rather gather 10 necklaces and upgrade them to a normal one .

    Making stuff more easier to get into (queues for anything ) you agree you ruined a bit comunication between players ... (i liked summoning stones tbh ) Offer people a reason to socialise , now people get toghether only to get stuff done , everything almost as a final reason has gear upgrade . People dont do stuff cos its fun , but cos tis must , as everything else not to fall behind ... Like legendary cloak , quests are fun and everything ... but if you wana be taken seriusly you MUST have it .

    Maybe sort of strange weekly random pve pvp events ?
    Killing King of Stormwind (for horde ) for a week awards bonus honor , or a chance to drop x item (like the one from ordos ... or maybe a bit worse , tho its not that difficult)
    so it wont be that easy maybe put something nice for defenders that week , duno each kill in Stormwind of a horde awards 100 honor . or 10 gold . Only during certain time .
    Or make it not weekly , make it a pop up quest everyone recieves at a certain random time , so everyone who isnt doing anything gets theyre main , gathers and tryes to do it , and same for the opposing faction .

    Or sort of PVE version a quest pop's up for a certain boss (any raid or instance maybe even Molten Core , just scale the boss to a decent level and make it drop something usefull , valor (which can be over the cap) or a token like those we trade 3 a week , or a normal raid item etc . So people get toghether to do something ?

    Should be server only or atleast have a certain% of server only , so people get to meet same people in this stuff and maybe socialise ? Like theyre doing on island .

    I am aware that most of this stuff is harming alt's , but alt's are alt's there should be a main i think .
    People would still have alt's , but hey theyre would be stuff to do with main which many prefer ... play a main , i play an alt cos i run out of stuff to do with main or actually bored . So maybe this would reduce alt's but not by force , but cos people enjoy more doing stuff with theyre main ? Btw those events above can have alt's Friendly drops ! like 300% xp potion ? or heirlooms ? improved version of heirlooms ! or items to improve heirlooms .
    (one maybe can check what he prefers to get from such thing's)

    I have plenty of stuff like this in mind , Ill leave it here ... Wana see what people think , if anyone agrees with me , or its complete non sense and BS . If there is anything good in that i may add more ... Maybe some ideas arent that stupid and worth keeping .

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk Lemposs's Avatar
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    Well, there is probably another MMO with those features, go look for it and try it out

  3. #3
    Stopped reading where "Tryed to keep it simple", basically coz I already agreed on all the pre-mentioned.. I couldnt agree more with it !

    The "there is more to explore" feeling is truly gone and is one of the biggest mistakes blizz has made.

  4. #4
    I do miss attunement. I remember back in the day, we could barely get down Loot Reaver and The Loot Below, but when they dropped attunement for BT, our jabroni guild went right in there. "be sure to equip your PVP gear, you need the hp when Warlord's bubble bursts!". Come on.

  5. #5
    TLDr would be i guess :
    Much stuff is casual and accesible , and thats nice , but also there is nothing left to aim for , nothing left for imagination , or no "goals" .
    (bte if you google , search of hapiness or something like that , like the will smith movie , youl see that the jurney is important , reaching the goal is great , but never reaching it is maybe even better )
    Now only thing we want to achieve is better gear/ilvl/number . Soo may be fun and great ,actually intresting raid with Garrosh a legendary figure weve been following since tbc as last boss ... But how many wana know the story the event's , and how many want his heirlooms ?

    There is no "unkown" , BTW Algalon , and the new titan guy ... Those 2 things are great , i remember killing algalon for the first time , i was like WoW ! And his dialog's were awesome .... I even went back to uldum to recheck some history and stuff ...

  6. #6
    re reputations have you done the newest one for emperor shaoshao?

    Lfr , now lfr is good and bad , good everyone sees stuff kills bosses , bad it lacks personality imho , people go there only to get stuff done
    then skip it and join a raiding guild.

  7. #7
    Quick rundown:

    - Item colors (read: purple) meaning something:
    Can't get this back unless they start implementing more colors. With adding tiers, making them accessible once the next is implemented, you can't have people not run around in "easy" epics. This was already an issue at the end of TBC, and blizzard even then thought it was a problem (getting new raiders up to snuff without running 2 years worth of raiding content to catch up). I'm afraid we're gonna have to deal with things as they are.

    - Attunements
    For anything that you can queue for (so raids, dungeons and scenarios) you can't do anything more but "complete the ones earlier in the list". Otherwise the crowd that just wants to queue and do stuff will not understand. For special content: I agree, which leads me to my next point:

    - Hard dungeons
    Cata showed they can't make normals and heroics "hard" anymore. People queue for them, get random people, fail and no one wants to do them anymore.
    However something special, something that requires you to do X (read: attunement) to get there, have to form your own group: they could make that a lot harder. The problem is development time here: it would be content for a very specific group of people, plus you can't make the rewards mandatory. So spending time on developing that takes away from content that the majority gets to do.
    While I agree that I would love doing that (I actually enjoyed the cata heroics before the nerfs because they posed a challenge, though hated doing them through LFD), I think there needs to be some sort of way of making this without it taking a lot of time to develop. Maybe re-releasing old dungeons and making them HARD would be the answer.

    - LFR loot
    Having bosses drop same items on normal or heroic level at a very small %: SUPER BAD IDEA! Hardcore guilds would feel forced to keep running them every week for this minuscule chance, especially for bosses they have not downed yet on heroic mode.
    Upgrading 10 LFR drops of the same item into a normal one: Great idea IMO! This would mean you'd have to put in a severe time investment into this goal (minimum of 10 weeks with extreme luck, not counting rolls), and gearing up this way is infinitely worse than actually doing the content on normal. Upgrades to heroic should not be allowed IMO, keep it to stuff you can obtain through LFR.
    It would give people something to do though and make those double drops give you some incentive to go for it. Maybe limit it to the first 75% of the raid though (until the next tier is implemented) to still give people a reason to go progress through normal mode.

    - Socializing
    This one is hard, but the best way of reaching this goal: Be the one that socializes. I don't think you can force people into doing this with game mechanics or tools.
    I personally do stuff for fun all the time, but I do this with friends and friends of friends. When we get new/random people, we invite them to our TS server, see what kind of a guy (or girl) they are. If they're like us, like to have fun while we play, then they're more than welcome to come again for similar events.
    We are motivated to play the game for having fun with people though and not so much for the epic lewtz (we do some things for loot, but our raids are more for progression than for the loot that results from progression) and we generally find that the people who play the game for the sole purpose of upgrading they characters are the ones that don't enjoy socializing. Forcing them to socialize won't make them any more fun to play with, they'll just get pissed eventually and leave. I've seen it time and time again back in vanilla.

    So in short: Be the socializer, find people that enjoy such an environment and do fun stuff with them. Sometimes you come across people with certain goals in mind, sometimes you come across people with the same mindset as yourself. The only way to find out who is who, is by trying

  8. #8
    Mechagnome Jaojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    I wanted to share what i think was good back then :
    Hard things , not cos they were hard or annoying but cos they were a time sink , and as such it didnt felt mandatory to do them . For example reputation , someone remember's Timbermaw hold ? It was a insane grind with little rep per kill , and actually 0 after which transformed into turning in some drops , and could last weeks .
    I hated the Timbermaw. In fact, I have one character who IS hated with Timbermaw, simply because that rep grind was such a waste of time that I would rather kill them for fun than grind for them (I used to escort people through the tunnel to winterspring also, killing as many as I could on the way.) Gating and grinding are fun for some people, and hell for everyone else... Look at how people complain about the Shaohao rep grind (which is something like Timbermaw, a mindless mob grind with a couple of quests to somewhat ease the mindlessness) I'm pretty sure that your the minority in liking that model.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    Item colours , green was green (pretty bad) Blue items were great they were blue "rare" nothing fancy but the difference was tha having a nice blue drop made people happy , and finding a purple (even a useless world drop , or a 40 50 level one) wasnt gamebreaking but it was Fun as a "mount drop" sort of feeling now . It wasnt broken by any means but it made you feel acomplished or lucky . Getting full purple in vanilla or Tbc took a bit of effort .
    Now those colors for gear lost its meaning , only acceptable item to wear is purple and there are so many of them we sell em every day to vendor .

    Lfr , now lfr is good and bad , good everyone sees stuff kills bosses , bad it lacks personality imho , people go there only to get stuff done :| And the rewards are kinda always lacking , i mean one will never ever get "normal drop" , maybe make LFR dont award sub par items , but better items tho getting them be harder ? Like add 5% of possibility that a item wont have LFR quality but Normal one ? and 1% possibility that it would be HC quality ?
    You realize these two ideas contradict each other right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    Dungeons they kinda got easy
    Unless you do Challenge Mode then you can't compare dungeons to the past. Heroic became Normal, CM became Heroic. Wrath's model seems to be the most popular from what I read; Mists manages to maintain Wrath's model and add a bit of Crusade's challenge in a "non-essential" area. Best of both worlds. Making it harder "just because" wouldn't make it more popular. Nor would people become more skilled; I played those dungeons, people aren't much more skilled now, except that random noobs caused more wipes back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    Making stuff more easier to get into (queues for anything ) you agree you ruined a bit comunication between players ... (i liked summoning stones tbh ) Offer people a reason to socialise , now people get toghether only to get stuff done , everything almost as a final reason has gear upgrade . People dont do stuff cos its fun , but cos tis must , as everything else not to fall behind ... Like legendary cloak , quests are fun and everything ... but if you wana be taken seriusly you MUST have it .
    You don't have to have the legendary to be taken seriously. 1 item will not make or break your ability to play, especially in a non-heroic environment. I'm not a fan of LFR myself, but I see the purpose of it. I don't like to do it, but I did it for gear padding and legendary drops... I also realize that because I did it, some people had smoother experiences in LFR. So "encouraging" someone like me to join LFR made the experience better for others who it is designed for, and that's a good design (otherwise it would almost always be a terrible experience) and it made the legendary grind somewhat less aggravating for me.

    TL;DR: I hate repetitive actions which require your attention. I can fish, (once you mouse on the bobber you can just close your eyes and listen) but killing mobs over and over gets old Fast. I've been killing mobs in wow for years, I kill hundreds to thousands of them in raids, I'm not gonna want to go out in my free time and do it some more. Especially ones that aren't particularly tactical (stay out of stupid or die is not strategically interesting, merely forcing your attention.) Want to increase the difficulty level? Then go out and find your own methods. There are plenty of challenging things in wow, you are the only thing preventing you from doing them. (See also: Ironman competition in wow.)
    My girls: Karin, Haku, and Meimei

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    TLDr would be i guess :
    Much stuff is casual and accesible , and thats nice , but also there is nothing left to aim for , nothing left for imagination , or no "goals" .
    (bte if you google , search of hapiness or something like that , like the will smith movie , youl see that the jurney is important , reaching the goal is great , but never reaching it is maybe even better )
    Now only thing we want to achieve is better gear/ilvl/number . Soo may be fun and great ,actually intresting raid with Garrosh a legendary figure weve been following since tbc as last boss ... But how many wana know the story the event's , and how many want his heirlooms ?

    There is no "unkown" , BTW Algalon , and the new titan guy ... Those 2 things are great , i remember killing algalon for the first time , i was like WoW ! And his dialog's were awesome .... I even went back to uldum to recheck some history and stuff ...
    The game was shiny and new back then, so of course it felt unknown. I felt the same way when I first started playing back when ICC opened. I couldn't wait to get to Ashenvale and explore. Or see Stormwind for the first time. I was in a race to hit 55 so I could explore the awesomeness of a Death Knight (I always played Undead in WC3 maps) and damn if I was going to explode if I didn't get to kill the Lich King.

    There is still plenty of that magic but that feeling of the unknown can never come back. Ever. No matter what storyline Blizzard comes up with, no matter what new zones or new raids, I've already experienced the feeling for the first time. It's in the past.

    Now, nothing I said is saying that there aren't features of the game then that could still be considered superior. I'm just pointing out that this is not a bad thing but a natural progression in life. A new job? It'll never be the same as your first job. A new love? Never the same as your first love.

    I disagree with "nothing left to aim for". I don't know about you, but there is: killing the final boss of every tier before the next, achievements/mounts/pets to hunt for, personal goals (like 11 90's), PvP stuff (if you're into PvP) such as arena titles and ratings...I also disagree that "never reaching the goal is maybe better". No. Not in a video game. The goal of a video game is to reach the goal. Never reaching it makes it pointless.

    Your point about "how many wanna know the story of the events and how many want his heirlooms?" is similarly wrong. You're assuming everyone in the past played the way you did and that only players interested in the story must have played in Classic. Not true at all. Absolutely a large portion didn't read the quests then any more than they did now; their goal was to get to end-game the same as they did in other MMO's before WoW. Absolutely a ton raided in MC, BWL, ZG, and AQ without a clue of why they were...just as they do now. That isn't Blizzard's fault and that isn't a reason to go back in any fashion to the game as it was back then.



  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Catdancing View Post
    re reputations have you done the newest one for emperor shaoshao?
    then skip it and join a raiding guild.
    I dont dislike it , and i am raiding ocassionaly , i just said it could be improved .
    P.s ye i enjoy timeless isle and ocassional , music + grind . atleast that mount if i ever get there , would give me some sense of acomplishment

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh there is some feedback .
    Jaojin -
    those ideas contradict eachother cos i took the separatly 1 by 1 , not in the same contest . If easy epics would become blue , let the 2 idea have blue drops which can be upgraded etc , i wanted to share the idea not the mechanic .

    Game was fresh back then , and fresh in tbc and so on , i agree but having something like "raids" which werent available so easily so fast still left something behind the curtains ? I am not saying game lacks stuff to do ... There is PLENTY , its just for example : you may say finish Soo in HC here is youre goal , it is a goal indeed , but i can kill garrosh in lfr flex normal hc , its the same "enemy" im killing it will be harder and so on also more rewarding , but still same dude . Having something Else which i wont be seeing in first weeks ... Like a different wing , or something else , i aint saying this is good idea , i just say it could be .


    "I also disagree that "never reaching the goal is maybe better". No. Not in a video game. The goal of a video game is to reach the goal. Never reaching it makes it pointless."

    Well whats the goal in wow ? Arena master ? or Heroic cleared ? or realm first ?

    those goals will be NEVER achieved by 90% of wow players . So it makes game pointless for almost everyone apart method and some amazing pvp'ers . Cos they reached the goal ? I mean you can follow my thinking . There are goals which many wont reach , and its ok for everyone , i just liked more if this goals werent just
    usual stuff made harder (Garrosh ---> harder)
    but different goals completly , instead of garrosh something else .

    For example , if we get as prize a used but a good BMW or Mercedes , theyre getting as prize the same BMW just new , maybe with a better interior and color . ( we get it pink they get it BLACK)
    I ask that there could be a ferrari or a lamborghini , we wont get it , not now atleast , but knowing there is more , not just same old bmw just nicer or more expensive (harder to get) But actually a ferrari

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rupenbritz View Post
    The "there is more to explore" feeling is truly gone and is one of the biggest mistakes blizz has made.
    There are 3 more continents ( all expansions ) and TONS of new stuff to explore. ( since vanilla )

    Blizz did not make any mistake.

    You just played the game for years and years and explored everything. How is that blizzards mistake ?
    Ecce homo ergo elk

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Twoflower View Post
    There are 3 more continents ( all expansions ) and TONS of new stuff to explore. ( since vanilla )

    Blizz did not make any mistake.

    You just played the game for years and years and explored everything. How is that blizzards mistake ?
    New content not to be available so fast for everyone , raids or part of them , not at vanilla levels , but to make it longer to discover everything .
    when last wing of Soo will open in lfr , the vast majority of wow players will see everything there is in 5.4 , there wont be anything left , well yes same thing but only harder , but nothing different .

    anyway this was just 1 point of the entire post ... There were other inputs also .

  13. #13
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    Well whats the goal in wow ? Arena master ? or Heroic cleared ? or realm first ?

    those goals will be NEVER achieved by 90% of wow players . So it makes game pointless for almost everyone apart method and some amazing pvp'ers . Cos they reached the goal ? I mean you can follow my thinking . There are goals which many wont reach , and its ok for everyone , i just liked more if this goals werent just
    usual stuff made harder (Garrosh ---> harder)
    but different goals completly , instead of garrosh something else .

    For example , if we get as prize a used but a good BMW or Mercedes , theyre getting as prize the same BMW just new , maybe with a better interior and color . ( we get it pink they get it BLACK)
    I ask that there could be a ferrari or a lamborghini , we wont get it , not now atleast , but knowing there is more , not just same old bmw just nicer or more expensive (harder to get) But actually a ferrari
    Your goal is personal. Obviously only a few people can be world first or the very top of the ladder. But most of us have a set of goals specifically for us, whether that's to clear the current content on normal or heroic or to achieve a rating of XXXX in arena, collect every pet there is, conquer as many gold challenge modes as they can, as far as they can get in endless mode proving grounds...whatever that goal is, we can attain it. The very concept of everyone being the best would make the best no longer the best but normal and average.

    Your analogy isn't anything different than exists today. Someone who only runs LFR attains their goal of killing the end-boss of the tier. They're rewarded appropriately with item level 528 gear. Someone else kills the end-boss of the tier on heroic. They're rewarded as well, with heroic gear that is considerably more powerful (566 vs 528) than the person in LFR gear. The person in LFR gear is sub par, gear-wise to the person in heroic, who has also earned other shiny things the person in LFR didn't get: mounts/pets/achievements/titles, which could be the Ferrari you're speaking of. This person will do more dps, or heal better, or tank easier because they're more powerful than the person who settled for the lesser goal, but they've both achieved their goals. The game wasn't pointless for either

    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    New content not to be available so fast for everyone , raids or part of them , not at vanilla levels , but to make it longer to discover everything .
    when last wing of Soo will open in lfr , the vast majority of wow players will see everything there is in 5.4 , there wont be anything left , well yes same thing but only harder , but nothing different .

    anyway this was just 1 point of the entire post ... There were other inputs also .
    Well you can't please everyone. People consume content as quickly as they can...they always have. Previously Blizzard would draw out that consumption by filling it with pointless busywork (like running on foot across the entirety of the globe) but people didn't like that very much. Sure, it was an epic feat the first time you got your level 40 and eventually level 60 mounts but on the second character? The third? No...you're forgetting that the person behind the screen has already done it all. Blizzard needs to keep people engaged in the game and the only way is to make rewards tangible and achievable in the limited time available to the largest set of players. Those on the fringe (those with a lot more time) either have to learn to deal with running out of things to do or pace themselves.



  14. #14
    Mechagnome Jaojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    those ideas contradict eachother cos i took the separatly 1 by 1 , not in the same contest . If easy epics would become blue , let the 2 idea have blue drops which can be upgraded etc , i wanted to share the idea not the mechanic .
    Rare 502, Epic 502... whats the difference? Perhaps the epic has slightly better stats, otherwise nothing but the color of the name. So that begs the question: Does it matter what color it is? You recall the epic trend didn't start recently. It started in the much beloved Burning Crusade expansion. Once you got into Kara (and everyone did kara) you were sportin epics... hell, even heroic dungeons dropped epics. But then, once you got into Molten Core you were already fully epiced in classic anyway... and it didn't take much effort to get into MC, cause 25 people carried the other 15 (or was it the other way around.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    Well whats the goal in wow ? Arena master ? or Heroic cleared ? or realm first ?
    Some games have defined goals, Endings; some games are perpetual playgrounds. Guess which one WoW is? Take FPS for instance. While each "Map" may have a defined objective, there is no overall objective other than to just play the game, kill other people and have fun. MMOs are also like that; while there are sometimes objectives, there is no overall objective other than to play the game. If you have to have a clearly defined ending, then you should stick to single player games.

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