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  1. #1

    Combat AOE rotation

    It seems like more and more are picking up on combat as a viable PvE spec, and one of the main drivers for this are the spec's AOE capabilities. However, it occurs to me that few have actually looked further into the AOE rotation. Surely, it's just about popping Blade Flurry and go to town while Eviscerating everything? Instead, I asked a simple question: at what # of adds does Crimson Tempest become a DPS increase?

    Since I've not found any current research on the matter, I took Excel for a spin to see if I could come up with some estimates. Here's what I discovered:

    Eviscerate: I calculated the damage based on the actual Eviscerate plus 40% of its damage on any number of secondary adds. Presuming Deadly Poison is up on the current target, I also added the 30% chance of Eviscerate proccing Deadly Poison Instant.

    Crimson Tempest: Crimson Tempest Physical is the damage it does on hit, while Crimson Tempest Bleed is the second part of the spell. Unlike Blade Flurry, this spell has the default 30% chance of proccing Deadly Poison on any target it hits, so I added the average amount from that. Finally I added the chance of Deadly Poison Instant on current target.



    (You can download the spreadsheet here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ontempest.xlsx)

    Bottom line? Crimson Tempest should be maintained in situations with 2 or more adds.
    Last edited by Lachtobi; 2013-10-07 at 11:31 PM.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor
    Recruiting a lock/ele to wrap up our Garrosh progression and going into Warlords. PM me or visit our website for more information.

  2. #2
    i think the only condition for this would be that the adds stay up for the entire duration of crimson tempest.

    but awesome sheet and i think it's awesome that you took the time to calculate this

  3. #3
    ANY NUMBER?

    Wow, nice work. That is not at all expected.

    So I'm going to ask some dumb questions because I can't click that link from here. Feel free to ignore them if you feel you addressed them adequately:

    1)- Did you take Revealing Strike into account? I'm unsure as to whether the flurried eviscerate gets the benefit. RS should also effect the CT on one target.
    2)- You say "weaved in", which I assume means "use when the bleed is gone". But there's some number of adds where you should use CT when the bleed is half expired, and some other number where you should only ever finish with CT. Or do you mean that third case right away?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    1)- Did you take Revealing Strike into account? I'm unsure as to whether the flurried eviscerate gets the benefit. RS should also effect the CT on one target.
    Damn, that didn't take long to dismantle. Didn't think of this interaction, but as it turns out Blade Flurry copies everything including the RvS bonus, whereas CT only gets the 35% on the main target. I've updated the sheet to reflect this - thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    2)- You say "weaved in", which I assume means "use when the bleed is gone". But there's some number of adds where you should use CT when the bleed is half expired, and some other number where you should only ever finish with CT. Or do you mean that third case right away?
    The minute we talk about varying lifetimes on adds my simple calculations simply won't suffice. For that we need sims. Just off the bat I got several questions that would require more analysis:

    - Where does Crimson Tempest fall in the priority list? In front of Revealing Strike but after Slice and Dice?
    - At what duration is it a DPS increase to clip Crimson Tempest to align with Shallow/Moderate/Deep Insight?
    - If Crimson Tempest is a superior finisher with 2 or more adds, at what point is Fan of Knives a superior builder?
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor
    Recruiting a lock/ele to wrap up our Garrosh progression and going into Warlords. PM me or visit our website for more information.

  5. #5
    FoK replacing SS requires conditionals. It's fewer CP per use (although less energy per use), and doesn't move BG state OR proc MG (99% sure), but that doesn't necessarily mean we should still discount it entirely, but switching to it would raise questions about using flurry at all during it - giant cluster of stuff to consider when you reach that potential # cap. If you're getting to the point where you want to switch to FoK though, I think you're in the wrong spec.

  6. #6
    Using FoK occasionally, even <5 targets is useful if nothing else for spreading deadly poison. I'd imagine at some point it would probably be worthwhile to ignore the CT bleed entirely and use CT at every 5 point finisher.

  7. #7
    Why is the deadly poison instant 2578 for every single entry? I get why it doesn't change for BF, but you should have an expected 2578 per target your CT hits and the chart is showing it held constant.

    That won't change the number of targets CT becomes optimal on, but it will change the break even time.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Why is the deadly poison instant 2578 for every single entry? I get why it doesn't change for BF, but you should have an expected 2578 per target your CT hits and the chart is showing it held constant.

    That won't change the number of targets CT becomes optimal on, but it will change the break even time.
    The DP instant is based purely on the main target, as it's safe to assume that DP is usually up on that target. I didn't account for the chance that a Crimson Tempest would hit a target already affected by DP, thus causing this instant proc, as that kind of simulation is beyond this spreadsheet (and hardly game changing).
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor
    Recruiting a lock/ele to wrap up our Garrosh progression and going into Warlords. PM me or visit our website for more information.

  9. #9
    my newb 2 coins : was using CT , readed somewhere and icy veins that i should not , tested , idd , its bad dps wise . Assasinaton spec :| useless spell

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    my newb 2 coins : was using CT , readed somewhere and icy veins that i should not , tested , idd , its bad dps wise . Assasinaton spec :| useless spell
    yes for assasination CT is useless, you'd be a lot better off using envenom and then fok a bit again because of the increased poison applications
    but this isn't a spreadsheet for assasination but for combat and aperantly it's quite good for it (wich i personally found a bit suprising )

  11. #11
    allofmywat.jpg

    Well, i didn't expect that. Definitely updating the guide - great work.

  12. #12
    Does Crimson Tempest count as a finisher for Restless Blades?

  13. #13
    Your damaging finishing moves reduce the remaining cooldown of your Adrenaline Rush, Killing Spree, Redirect, Shadow Blades, and Sprint abilities by 2 sec per combo point.
    it's a damaging finisher so i would assume so (haven't tested it just going from the tooltip)

  14. #14
    It counts towards Restless Blades and cost the same energy as Eviscerate. For all intents and purposes, it's a straight up comparison.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor
    Recruiting a lock/ele to wrap up our Garrosh progression and going into Warlords. PM me or visit our website for more information.

  15. #15
    I decided to expand upon this with a fairly extensive simulationcraft study.

    I ran 17 1000-iteration sims (no scaling values means 1k iterations is enough to get a crude estimate of dps).
    First I had to fix a bug where CT wasn't applying lethal poisons (credit to phup on EJ for catching that, it is triggering restless blades though).

    I ran a baseline 1-target patchwerk sim, then 4 sets of 4 patchwerk sims (2, 3, 4, 5 targets).
    I used the default combat T16H simc profile.

    Baseline was 412,100 dps

    First round of 4: Blade flurry with active_targets>= 2, at 2-5 targets:
    2: 477,155
    3: 557,839
    4: 639,361
    5: 731,413

    Second round: Crimson tempest at 2-5 targets, no blade flurry
    2: 492,532
    3: 542,837
    4: 599,101
    5: 645,098

    Third round: Blade Flurry + Crimson Tempest, 2-5 targets
    2: 542,462
    3: 667,311
    4: 801,228
    5: 930,542

    Fourth Round: Blade Flurry + Crimson Tempest, FoK at 4+ combo points or spammed during deep insight:
    2: 448,181
    3: 570,558
    4: 694,598
    5: 818,100

    Conclusions: Crimson tempest should be used every 12 seconds even at 2 targets, with blade flurry. Crimson Tempest with Blade Flurry is a clear winner. FoK should not be used.

    What I find interesting is comparing BF only to CT only. I did not expect CT to come out ahead of blade flurry at 2-3 targets but BF doesn't come out ahead until 4-5 targets when compared to a non-BF CT rotation.

    Things to look into: FoK strictly in deep insight only (for BF, CT, and BF+CT), also how many targets before you replace every finisher with CT, instead of doing CT every 12sec (both alone and with BF).

    Edit: Just realized the FoK priority list is handling combo points poorly. I'll revise that tomorrow and edit this post with updated results.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-10-10 at 05:34 AM.

  16. #16
    Dreadlord Vanthem's Avatar
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    Guess I will bring back CT on my bars!

    Thanks for the work!

  17. #17
    Crimson Tempest actually was not triggering restless blades either. I have fixed both issues (poisons on initial DD, restless blades) in the svn, they will be in the next release.

  18. #18
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    What sources of AoE weakened armor exist in this game outside of the FoK glyph? Is it acceptable to assume that the adds here will always be subjected the 12% physical damage increase?
    I am the lucid dream
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  19. #19
    the landstrider (i think) pet of a hunter also applies 3 stacks of aoe weaken armor

  20. #20
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datenshi View Post
    the landstrider (i think) pet of a hunter also applies 3 stacks of aoe weaken armor
    Ah, the Tallstrider has Dust Cloud which will apply an instant 3 stack. However, outside of this, none exists. This is a pretty uncommon pet to have out during 10 man progression from my experience. It may be worth simulating the impact of having to use FoK to put up the initial weakened armor and then maintaining it throughout.

    I would do it myself, but I need to wait for the new release.
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