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  1. #1
    Keyboard Turner
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    Calculation for eviscerate and rupture damage

    Hello,

    I want find out how many damage eviscerate and rupture do while find weakness is up and I'd like to have the calculation for it.

    Well firstly I need to know how much damage the spells in general do. The formula for evixcerate from wowhead is:

    5 points: [333 + ((881 * 5) + Attack power * 0.9) * 1]-[998 + ((881 * 5) + Attack power * 0.9) * 1] damage.

    My rogue has 64885 AP and 54.17% mastery. 333 + ((881 * 5) + 64885 * 0.9) * 1.5417 = 97154. The ingame tooltip says 97330.

    For rupture

    5 points: [(231 + 32 * (1) * 5 + 0.062 * Attack power * (1)) * 0.5 * 24] over 24 sec

    (231 + 32 * (1.5417) * 5 + 0.062 * 64885 * (1.5417)) * 0.5 * 24 = 80156. The ingame tooltip is 83789.

    Did I make a mistake and where?

  2. #2
    I'm not prefectly sure (too tired and might be just blind) but I don't see the increased rupture damage from SV in that formula...

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    I'm not prefectly sure (too tired and might be just blind) but I don't see the increased rupture damage from SV in that formula...
    It's not really neccesary as SV increases the damage of both by the same percentage.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    It's not really neccesary as SV increases the damage of both by the same percentage.
    It also passively increases rupture damage by 50%. And I don't know if these numbers already represent this or not.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    It also passively increases rupture damage by 50%. And I don't know if these numbers already represent this or not.
    Doh! I forgot about that. Excellent point.

  6. #6
    Would that make rupture max damage: [(231 + 32 * (1.5) * 5 + 0.062 * Attack power * (1.5)) * 0.5 * 24] then? If so the op was either not in sub spec or the tooltip is wrong? Or dunno...


    Just adding stuff up:
    Rupture: (entire damage)
    [(231 + 32 * (1) * 5 + 0.062 * Attack power * (1)) * 12] = (231*12 + 32 * 5 * 12 * (1) + 0.062 * 12 * Attack power * (1)) =
    = 2772 + 1920 * (1) + 0,774 * Attack Power * (1)

    Evis: [333 + ((881 * 5) + Attack power * 0.9) * 1]-[998 + ((881 * 5) + Attack power * 0.9) * 1] =
    = [333 + 4405 * (1) + Attack Power * 0.9 * (1)] - [998 + (4405 * (1) + Attack Power * 0.9 * (1)]
    Last edited by Avengerx; 2013-10-08 at 03:42 PM.

  7. #7
    You shouldn't trust game tooltips, they are most likely wrong. Just test how much you hit without any proc items and check if it matches your formula.

  8. #8
    The only values we really need to look at are the AP scales.

    Evis: AP*.9
    Rupture: AP*.062*12(IFSub,1.5) = AP*1.116

    For subtlety, rupture should be ahead, even under FW. Double check against tooltips in game - they should be accurate; if you think they're not, you're probably seeing the effect of armor for abilities that are affected by armor.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-10-09 at 12:24 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    The only values we really need to look at are the AP scales.

    Evis: AP*.9
    Rupture: AP*.062*12(IFSub,1.5) = AP*1.16

    For subtlety, rupture should be ahead, even under FW. Double check against tooltips in game - they should be accurate; if you think they're not, you're probably seeing the effect of armor for abilities that are affected by armor.
    This depends if the roughly 30% (I remember this value somehow) evis damage increase during fw is more or not. I think it should be slightly ahead.

  10. #10
    The increased evis damage is the lack of armor reducing it. Outside FW, Evis=AP*.9*(1-%armor).
    Rupture remains the same inside and outside FW, at Rupture=AP*1.116

    If rupture scales higher, it just scales higher.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-10-09 at 12:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    This depends if the roughly 30% (I remember this value somehow) evis damage increase during fw is more or not. I think it should be slightly ahead.
    No that is the raw ap multiplier of each ability (counting sub's 50% rupture bonus) and is therefore already ignoring armor. Now he is ignoring the fact that at 0 AP, evis will do ~4.5k more damage, but when we have 60k+ ap raid buffed...

  12. #12
    Doh, yesterday's weed was a bit strong, you are perfectly right about the armor pen thing. Small modification though, it's AP*1.116

    @Sesshou
    Where did you get that 4.5k more evis damage from at 0 ap? Following the above mentioned formulas evis does (with 0 ap/no mastery) 4738 damage while rupture 4692. Or am I missing something again?

  13. #13
    So to get this straight
    Sanguinary Veins makes rupture deal 50% more damage. This is already in the calculation (and what i remember from tooltips at around 70k ap unbuffed rupture was like 10-20k ahead ov evis.

    But there is the second part to Sanguinary Veins: "causes you to deal 25% additional damage to targets afflicted by your Rupture, Garrote, or Crimson Tempest. and glyphed hemo ofc" Evis would be affected by that right? but is rupture also affected?

    so lets say i get hemo up on the target, so i deal 25% more damage to the target, so evis deals now 25% more dmg but i guess each rupture tick also? and is this already calculated on the tooltip of the debuff on my target or is it for example 11k each 2s and then multiplied by 1.25 when it really ticks?

    edit. forgot its 35% dmg increase
    Last edited by Hntr; 2013-10-10 at 05:29 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hntr View Post
    So to get this straight
    Sanguinary Veins makes rupture deal 50% more damage. This is already in the calculation (and what i remember from tooltips at around 70k ap unbuffed rupture was like 10-20k ahead ov evis.

    But there is the second part to Sanguinary Veins: "causes you to deal 25% additional damage to targets afflicted by your Rupture, Garrote, or Crimson Tempest. and glyphed hemo ofc" Evis would be affected by that right? but is rupture also affected?

    so lets say i get hemo up on the target, so i deal 25% more damage to the target, so evis deals now 25% more dmg but i guess each rupture tick also? and is this already calculated on the tooltip of the debuff on my target or is it for example 11k each 2s and then multiplied by 1.25 when it really ticks?
    Yes with SV everything deals 25% more damage. That includes melee attacks, specials, etc. I really don't know how dynamic the tooltip is, but right now I would say it probably does not include it. Very easy to test tho, use an evis with and without SW up and check the tooltip.

  15. #15
    SV is a target-specific, dynamic effect. Outside of the passive 50% increase to rupture damage, the 35% all-damage component of SV should not be reflected in tooltips.

    Also, it was tested in MoP beta: Rupture benefits from its own SV application.

  16. #16
    I very much appreciate the math here. I'm still not 100 percent convinced however that rupture is a dps increase during find weakness. I did some dummy testing (50 evis's under FW vs. 30 ruptures) and the average evis was ahead by 25K. I did this with no trinkets and poor quality daggers. Maybe my test sample was just too small.

  17. #17
    Keyboard Turner
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    Thx for the math, I'll try to understand it

    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    I very much appreciate the math here. I'm still not 100 percent convinced however that rupture is a dps increase during find weakness. I did some dummy testing (50 evis's under FW vs. 30 ruptures) and the average evis was ahead by 25K. I did this with no trinkets and poor quality daggers. Maybe my test sample was just too small.
    Did you consider the energy costs? It's normal that evis do more damage rupture, but rupture is cheaper and more efficient.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    I very much appreciate the math here. I'm still not 100 percent convinced however that rupture is a dps increase during find weakness. I did some dummy testing (50 evis's under FW vs. 30 ruptures) and the average evis was ahead by 25K. I did this with no trinkets and poor quality daggers. Maybe my test sample was just too small.
    Try posting the log?

    No, it's NOT normal for eviscerate to be above for sub under FW, unless something is wrong. Rupture has higher AP Scaling coefficient. For more AP, it does more damage.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    Try posting the log?

    No, it's NOT normal for eviscerate to be above for sub under FW, unless something is wrong. Rupture has higher AP Scaling coefficient. For more AP, it does more damage.
    Can you run a log for a target dummy? I'll try it out (I also have trouble viewing logs at work, which is probably a good thing . If anything, I'll run a more extensive set on the target dummy and post skada data here.
    Last edited by mongoose6; 2013-10-10 at 10:59 AM.

  20. #20
    Are you controlling for crits? They can mess up small samples like stuff in the hundreds. It's easy to control for, either don't count them or just divide them by two. We know in advance that crit boosts rupture and eviscerate by the same measure for any crit rating.

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