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  1. #1

    Questioning Raid Performance

    Hi there fellow MMO-ers,

    So since about 3-4 Weeks ago I started rebuilding a whole new raid team since the old team fell apart (lots of em transfered away to a PvE server). I must say I am quite positive suprised about the attendance of the new raid members and in the past few days/weeks we made some nice progression. We're not a real hardcore raiding guild but more into the atmosphere and killing some bosses with each other, however we would like to step up clearing some more normal bosses.

    Now we started with 3 flex raids a week since lots of people still had to gear up. Recently we're up to 1 flex raid a week and 2 normal raids a week since the raiders acquired some more higher gear. During the last two weeks we killed Immersius, Fallen Protectors, Norushen, Sha of Pride, Galakras and yesterday Iron Juggernaut & Kor' Kron Dark Shaman (with a friend of me helping out, Ilvl 557 Rogue). After we killed the Shamans in 5 Pulls (Was quite suprised by that) unfortantly the rogue had to go and we couldn't replace him with a 5th other dps. Mean while when we were discussing this, the tank and main healer said/suggested that we probably wouldn't have the raid dps to kill General Nazgrim on normal and this got me thinking - although the raiding is going quite well, is the dps lacking behind in some way or another? I know that I am the only DPS person with the legendary Cloak/Gem atm but all of the raiders are on a decent Ilvl as far as I can see.

    Setup;
    • Brewmaster Monk Tank --> Ilvl 543 (Legendary Cloak)
    • Blood Death Knight Tank --> Ilvl 542 (Legendary Cloak)
    • Holy Paladin Healer --> Ilvl 543 (Legendary Cloak)
    • Resto Druid Healer --> Ilvl 534
    • Discipline Priest Healer --> Ilvl 534
    • Frost Mage DPS --> Ilvl 546 (Legendary Cloak)
    • Destruction Warlock DPS --> Ilvl 541
    • Survival Hunter DPS --> Ilvl 536
    • Survival Hunter DPS --> Ilvl 540
    • Shadow Priest DPS --> Ilvl 536
    • Windwalker Monk DPS --> Ilvl 530

    World of Logs from this week (Rogue is not in our usual team unfortantly)
    Normal Run 1: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/k2ox4te89jqhml1k/
    Normal Run 2: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/5jon9whafj0y7b65/

    Now my questions are;
    1. Do some DPS needs to step it up or are they doing fine for there current Ilvl and without the legendaries yet?
    2. If some of them need to step it up, any tips & tops on what I can advice them (Including myself, I always want to improve & go for the maximum preformance)
    3. Is this group ready yet to take on General Nazgrim & preferable up to Thok/Siegecrafter?

    Edit: I'm encouraging all the raiders to get there legendary quests done as soon as possible, most are busy on the Valor Quest at the moment.

  2. #2
    I realise I am not specifically answering your questions, but some general comments:

    1) Regarding Nazgrim, he is very easy. If you find your raid is pretty good at execution, you may want to consider two healing fights to bring extra DPS and ensure that people are avoiding damage which is avoidable and also using offhealing cooldowns when needed.

    Spoils is more of a DPS check. Best way I think to handle this is to ensure you are picking up the right buffs to help out on DPS, and opening things in a good order. Try the heroic way of killing it which is double panda > get buffs > big add 1 nuke > small/medium adds till 36 energy > big add 2.

    We found siegecrafter to be very easy but we manage to get away with only 1 DPS on the conveyer at a time which is thanks to our gear. If you have to send two, then the fight will take a lot longer. It is probably 2 healable as well though if you are having issues with enrage or DPS.


    2) On specific classes that could improve, I am not a DPSer but I notice your monk tank is at the bottom of your logs. They have the potential to be substantially higher depending on vengeance levels and how you do the fight. You should have him maybe look at abusing vengeance some more to put out some sick damage.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk Akraen's Avatar
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    Your mage only had an 80% uptime on invocation so for 20% of the fight he was doing 15% less damage.

    He also only used alter time once.

    Other than that he is gearing perfectly and just needs to snapshot and watch uptimes.

  4. #4
    1) Your mage needs to step it up. First place to start is buff uptimes. On protectors he only managed 56% on nether tempest and 61% on invokers energy. He needs weakauras / tell me when prompts if this stuff falls off. If invokers energy falls off he does 15% less damage. He lost than buff for 40% of the fight, that's huge. Letting the nether tempest drop off for half the fight is also really bad, exp when its a multitarget fight. If he gets these buff uptimes to closer to 90% then his dps can easily improve by 15%.
    This principle can easily be used to check a lot of classes. Make sure maintenance buffs and important DoT's never fall off.

    2) As was said, if you can kill dark shaman then you can kill nazgrim and malkorok. You will need to drop to 2 healers for spoils since having one 5 man team with 2 healers in it will be a massive liability. Siegecrafter is an execution fight but the damage is pretty high. Thok is pretty hard and will be tough with your current gear. Give it a shot but I think he may be a little tough atm considering your gear.

    All in all considering your gear you are doing really well. Prodding people to improve in a constructive manner never hurts though!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Your mage only had an 80% uptime on invocation so for 20% of the fight he was doing 15% less damage.

    He also only used alter time once.

    Other than that he is gearing perfectly and just needs to snapshot and watch uptimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    1) Your mage needs to step it up. First place to start is buff uptimes. On protectors he only managed 56% on nether tempest and 61% on invokers energy. He needs weakauras / tell me when prompts if this stuff falls off. If invokers energy falls off he does 15% less damage. He lost than buff for 40% of the fight, that's huge. Letting the nether tempest drop off for half the fight is also really bad, exp when its a multitarget fight. If he gets these buff uptimes to closer to 90% then his dps can easily improve by 15%.
    This principle can easily be used to check a lot of classes. Make sure maintenance buffs and important DoT's never fall off.
    Hehe, I'm the mage in the raids and yea true, I can find myself in the things you are pointing out. I'm using Weakaura mostly for my Invocation, Mage bomb & Legendary Proc uptime (Is it worth to get the proc trinkets in there as well)? Sometimes it is hard to keep track of the uptimes cause I got myself focused on leading the raid with calling out most abilities for the other 9 people so yea I could improve a bit more on that.

    @Deja, I died on Protectors , slacked on the Mark of Anquish phase after Iceblocking, Stacks were a bit to high so I basicly got 1 shot. Mostly I always have my Nether Tempest up there (except for the add phases where I focus myself a bit more on single target dps to decrease the special ability phases)

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk Akraen's Avatar
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    I could tell you are a good mage, just was distracted or something.

    Trinket procs should be in WA or TMW, they are more important to extend with AT than anything else

  7. #7
    Brewmaster Forgettable's Avatar
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    Your DPS need to pick it up if the Blood DK is beating them in DPS. The hunter specifically needs to improve, while for the Dark Shamans fight, the Warlock and Shadow Priest should both be a lot higher due to multi dotting. Why the warlock is not affliction for this fight is beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delti View Post
    If Forgettable knew what he was doing with his keyboard, I would totally kick his ass in dps!
    ^ My guild leader while drunk.

  8. #8
    Hello Forgettable,

    I am the warlock (fysix) in that fight. I am multi dotting as much as I can during the fight (Immolate + Havoc). The reason why I ain't affliction during that fight is because i can't reach the haste cap and i don't really like the affliction rotation. Spartex (our raidleader) says that we're free to play the spec we want so I prefer sticking with Destro since I like the spec a lot more. Just wondering if there any tips on increasing dps on certain fights as destro - that would come in quite handfull for me.
    Last edited by Darkswordnl; 2013-10-09 at 04:46 PM.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Nazgrim is not a hard dps check. In fact, the safest way to kill him is with lower dps. He stops spawning adds after wave 10, so if you get him to around 15% or so by the time wave 10 comes out you'll be fine. At this time he's in defensive stance so once your dps kills all the adds from wave 10, the tanks can push him under 10%, after that your dps can focus on the adds from the final wave. Then he goes into battle stance and you have 1 minute to do about 30 million total damage. Its really easy. A lot of raids complicate the fight by pushing it early and having a ton of adds to deal with.

    Obviously this slows down the fight a lot, and once you have really good dps you can push it down a lot faster by killing it before wave 7 and not even mess with it. But when you're dealing with a raid with lower dps, 3 heal the fight, do the mechanics properly, and its not a big dps check.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkswordnl View Post
    Hello Forgettable,

    I am the warlock (fysix) in that fight. I am multi dotting as much as I can during the fight (Immolate + Havoc). The reason why I ain't affliction during that fight is because i can't reach the haste cap and i don't really like the affliction rotation. Spartex (our raidleader) says that we're free to play the spec we want so I prefer sticking with Destro since I like the spec a lot more. Just wondering if there any tips on increasing dps on certain fights as destro - that would come in quite handfull for me.
    It seems a couple of you guys made it this far. Next stop is the class forums if you're interested in learning more.

  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk Akraen's Avatar
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    It is a huge step in the right direction that you are seeking answers in the first place

  12. #12
    Yea I agree on that, I try to read myself up as much as I can with changes in stat priorities and all the new stuff that comes in (Reading a lot in the Mage class forum over the past few months, as well checking up on wow-official (EU/US) forums).

    As far as I can analyze my own dps I find it kind of hard to check into other classes there dps in the logs since I have less knowlegde about that. Besides that I wanna direct my raiders a bit more to the class forums - could anyone help me out with checking the points they could improve on the most in dps? (For example the hunter, anything that the log shows where he could improve in?)

  13. #13
    Brewmaster Forgettable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkswordnl View Post
    Hello Forgettable,

    I am the warlock (fysix) in that fight. I am multi dotting as much as I can during the fight (Immolate + Havoc). The reason why I ain't affliction during that fight is because i can't reach the haste cap and i don't really like the affliction rotation. Spartex (our raidleader) says that we're free to play the spec we want so I prefer sticking with Destro since I like the spec a lot more. Just wondering if there any tips on increasing dps on certain fights as destro - that would come in quite handfull for me.
    I don't actually main my warlock anymore, but I recommend you take a look at this page: http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topi...normal-heroic/

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartex View Post
    Yea I agree on that, I try to read myself up as much as I can with changes in stat priorities and all the new stuff that comes in (Reading a lot in the Mage class forum over the past few months, as well checking up on wow-official (EU/US) forums).

    As far as I can analyze my own dps I find it kind of hard to check into other classes there dps in the logs since I have less knowlegde about that. Besides that I wanna direct my raiders a bit more to the class forums - could anyone help me out with checking the points they could improve on the most in dps? (For example the hunter, anything that the log shows where he could improve in?)
    Also here's a good page for your hunter to look at: http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topi...le/#entry35705
    Quote Originally Posted by Delti View Post
    If Forgettable knew what he was doing with his keyboard, I would totally kick his ass in dps!
    ^ My guild leader while drunk.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkswordnl View Post
    Spartex (our raidleader) says that we're free to play the spec we want so I prefer sticking with Destro since I like the spec a lot more.
    I've been raiding as a warlock for quite a while now. Having a main spec that you use for most of the bosses is fine, because there are only small differences in single target dps. However, pure dps classes have the advantage of being able to switch to a spec that has some niche for certain bosses and can greatly help their raid with it. You should play the class, instead of playing just a spec. It will also broaden your perspectives and let you know the class more.

    You should either get an affliction or a demonology offspec and learn how to play it. Forget about stats like haste cap, as long as you're not heavily reforging to crit, then a haste/mastery spec is perfectly fine for both. You can still play destro on most fights, but it's not much to ask to switch to your offspec on maybe one or two of the bosses where it performs so much better. You still have it better than shadow or balance players who are asked to heal

    On Fallen protectors, affliction can pull 250k+ dps with your gear. On Iron Juggernaut the bombs do physical damage, which means that a demonology warlock with its massive armor buff in demon form can soak one or two of them each wave with ease, trivializing one of the annoying mechanics in the fight. On Thok, demonology can pool some demonic fury and completely ignore the aoe interrupt phase, being probably the only really viable spell dps on that boss. So, choose an offspec, either aff or demo, and use it just for some of the niche bosses where they really shine.

    ps: An extra tip - Get the life tap glyph for Malkorok.

  15. #15
    I think your spriest has some things he can work on.

    Looking at protectors for example, which is pretty much one of shadow's strongest fight this tier, some things pop up from the logs.

    1) His mind blast usage is really low. Mind blast being on a 8 second cooldown, if you had no haste and casted it on cooldown which is a 1.5 second cast, you would basically do a mind blast every 9.5 seconds. All shadow priests run a ton of haste though, so expecting a mind blast every 9.5 seconds is not too much to ask (even every 10 seconds is decent). On protectors, he could have gotten 50 MB (or 48 if he did it every 10 seconds). However, he only got off 24 mind blasts - half of that. That's pretty bad, considering shadow orbs are the most vital thing to our DPS, especially when you have solace and insanity. The same thing applies with SW: D. You want to try to snipe orbs as often as possible, and on a fight like protectors there's plenty of opportunities to do that.

    Multi-dotting is very important on that fight but not at the cost of your shadow orbs.

    2) Speaking of multi-dotting, his uptimes for both SW:P and VT are not too bad, but not very good either. With so many targets constantly, he should maintain at the very least 90% on both dots (99%+ on SW:P and 95%+ on VT if he was on the ball with it).

    3) From what I can tell, he generated about 30 shadow orbs (could be slightly more but I didn't dig too deep on his SW: D usage), which should come out to 10 DPx3 at least, but he only did 8. He might have SW: D/MB at full orbs already and wasted them, so that's something he could fix too.

    4) This kind of relates to point 2 but I don't feel solace & insanity is a good talent for this fight. FDCL is better for a fight like that (and does more damage overall as well) if you are great at keeping VT up on everything. Having to sit there and channel insanity kind of kills dot uptimes among other things. Not to mention because his shadow orb generation was so low, having solace and insanity didn't help his dps much anyway.

  16. #16
    WoL is funky to work with on my phone, plus battery is almost dead

    I just looked at Ranking info on both links to see what kind of DPS the hunters were putting out on each boss.(Can't tell if they died at any point). But for their iLvl they should be doing lot more.

    I'm at 535 on my Hunter and doing 30-80k more.

    When I get home I can do a better analysis, and post on here or PMs.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome Naer's Avatar
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    On protectors, your disc priest only had 7 dispels. That means they weren't using Mass Dispel (or used it like... once....). Very poor in my eyes, priests' biggest asset on that fight is Mass Dispel.

    They also didn't use Archangel nearly enough, and they didn't use Inner Focus at ALL.

    They aren't using PW: Solace on CD, which means they're not actually netting Mana back. It's a dps and mana regen loss. They need to pick a different talent (preferably mindbender) or always his PW: Sol on cd or at least, 4/per minute (10 s CD).

    The'yre not using PW: S effectively enough to always get rapture. They get a free PW: S every 12 seconds, and they're casting ~15-20 seconds on some fights.

    They're not using SS to the best of their ability (Inner Focus would help with this)

    And they have weird glyphs in... Glyph of purify is STILL a waste of a spot even on Sha since you're not dispelling enough to forgo a better choice like a defensive.

    On Galakras, they cast PW: S 23 times out of a possible and reasonable ~45 times FOR FREE ie every 12 seconds for rapture.

    Which makes me think they aren't tracking their meta proc with a WA, since the best use of lucidity is to spam 2-3 PW Shields out.

    tl;dr

    1) Needs to re-evaulate t2 talents -- pw: sol usage is pitiful, and they'll need to switch to a better regen tool if they cannot maximize it's use
    2) Needs to track rapture and make good use of it
    3) Needs to track meta proc
    4) Needs to be smarter about AA
    5) Needs to learn where inner Focus is and bind it.

    I generally raid 25m, but here are some logs where I helped out on our 10m alt run. I was 539 at the time of these parses, with no cloak:

    Galakras:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2459&e=3041

    Iron Juggernaugt
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7068&e=7480
    Last edited by Naer; 2013-10-09 at 07:52 PM.
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    Let's go ahead and assume that these alpha patch notes are 100% final and there will be absolutely no changes for the 6-8 months the expansion is in development.

  18. #18
    Hi,

    I know i still got some problems with my dps, and i'm still working on it. I see every week that my dps is increasing.
    I also want to reach the next haste cap of 14800 ( the maximum i can get atm is 12100) . I think it will increase my Dps also allot. And you're true about the mindblast i'm still working on that problem.

    The shadow priest:P

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by zhaliax View Post
    Hi,

    I know i still got some problems with my dps, and i'm still working on it. I see every week that my dps is increasing.
    I also want to reach the next haste cap of 14800 ( the maximum i can get atm is 12100) . I think it will increase my Dps also allot. And you're true about the mindblast i'm still working on that problem.

    The shadow priest:P
    Yeah the next breakpoint will help a ton but don't ignore good socket bonuses and stuff to get it (180/120 int etc), I see a lot of spriests do that and it's not more dps at all. Legendary cloak will help a ton too if you ever get that!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Naer View Post
    On protectors, your disc priest only had 7 dispels. That means they weren't using Mass Dispel (or used it like... once....). Very poor in my eyes, priests' biggest asset on that fight is Mass Dispel.
    They also didn't use Archangel nearly enough, and they didn't use Inner Focus at ALL.
    ........................................
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelicat View Post
    I think your spriest has some things he can work on. Looking at protectors for example, which is pretty much one of shadow's strongest fight this tier, some things pop up from the logs.

    1) His mind blast usage is really low......
    Quote Originally Posted by devla View Post
    I've been raiding as a warlock for quite a while now. Having a main spec........
    Thanks a lot for this information guys! This stuff is exacly where I am looking for and Im gonna appoint all the raiders (in a positive way ofc) to it so they can improve performance! As you can see 3 raiders in here already. In the end they will benefit the most ofcourse because there is not a happier moment when youself increase in preformance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Drairon View Post
    WoL is funky to work with on my phone, plus battery is almost dead

    I just looked at Ranking info on both links to see what kind of DPS the hunters were putting out on each boss.(Can't tell if they died at any point). But for their iLvl they should be doing lot more.

    I'm at 535 on my Hunter and doing 30-80k more.

    When I get home I can do a better analysis, and post on here or PMs.
    That would be awsome since we're raiding with 1-2 hunters!
    Last edited by Spartex; 2013-10-09 at 08:15 PM.

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