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  1. #1

    Why does it seem like most top rogues don't follow Shadowcraft's recommendations?

    Based on several top parsing assassination rogues on WoL, it seems like most rogues do not follow the reforge/gem recommendations that shadowcraft recommends. I have plugged in a lot of the players with number 1 parses into shadowcraft just for curiosity's sake and most of them(according to shadowcraft) are reforging completely wrong. For example, some players are still going straight mastery and ignoring haste/crit altogether when shadowcraft is telling them that they should be focusing on haste/crit and dropping a lot of mastery. I am aware that all 3 our stats synergize well with one another and that the more you have of one stat, the more appealing the latter two stats will be. However, I am wondering if shadowcraft is placing too much value into crit due to our set bonus. It seems like no matter which rogue I plug in, shadowcraft is recommending a haste/crit build for most assassination rogues, but I see people like Fayz of Blood Legion with fucking 114% mastery unbuffed which seems like something shadowcraft would not recommend.

    So who is correct? The people who are not following shadowcraft's recommendations and getting top parses, or shadowcraft?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Based on several top parsing assassination rogues on WoL, it seems like most rogues do not follow the reforge/gem recommendations that shadowcraft recommends. I have plugged in a lot of the players with number 1 parses into shadowcraft just for curiosity's sake and most of them(according to shadowcraft) are reforging completely wrong. For example, some players are still going straight mastery and ignoring haste/crit altogether when shadowcraft is telling them that they should be focusing on haste/crit and dropping a lot of mastery. I am aware that all 3 our stats synergize well with one another and that the more you have of one stat, the more appealing the latter two stats will be. However, I am wondering if shadowcraft is placing too much value into crit due to our set bonus. It seems like no matter which rogue I plug in, shadowcraft is recommending a haste/crit build for most assassination rogues, but I see people like Fayz of Blood Legion with fucking 114% mastery unbuffed which seems like something shadowcraft would not recommend.

    So who is correct? The people who are not following shadowcraft's recommendations and getting top parses, or shadowcraft?
    Depends on the fight? Isn't shadowcraft geared around single target? So potentially if aoe was important stacking mastery for potent poison ticks of spam of knives would be good? As assassination for me shadowcraft shows less that 100 dps different between mastery - haste - crit and haste - crit - mastery, so if a mastery build was going to put out greater aoe I could see why prioritizing mastery in that way would be a good idea. I'm only speculating though. I'm sure someone has done some maths or something.

  3. #3
    ^ Shomari is spot on

    If you're doubting one particular mechanic (like the set bonus), try simming a char with and without the set bonus, and see if it approximately matches the value for ShC. Stat priorities also don't precisely match the ideal single-target setup, and you're not likely actually looking at assassination rogues in assassination gear if you're tracking #1 ranked parses, since after the change a lot are running sub/combat and dropping mut entirely (why anyone else would stack mastery I'm not sure, though).

    Also worth noting: you can't see how those characters were geared, gemmed or reforged when they got the ranking. If they have since changed, you won't know it.

  4. #4
    To clarify; a rogue master of five year experience.

    Rogues ARE hated. if you love this class you must get a feel for it on your own. the class is a puzzle that everyone prefer that they figure out on their own. now if shadow craft say's go jump into an oven, is your common sense going to make you decide to do so? [just using as an example; do not take this personal shadow craft for me to explain] the class is an introspective class; you're always getting torn to shreds you have to figure it out on your own.

    now onto my other tangent;

    look this is pointless; honestly this makes the readers think that the class has to be nerfed when in fact it is nerfed. so.. [I hate using the word nerf] overall Assassination, combat, and subtlety; work as this 1 CP gen 2 Eviscerate for damage. rupture is just the stuff in the middle not as important as using eviscerate 7 times a minute. in a given rotation.

    do you think this helps? if so cry me a river. Tears of Joy
    Last edited by Thieves cant; 2013-10-10 at 10:12 AM.
    Tell them, only that the lich king is dead and that the world of warcraft died with him.

    Truth a double edge sword: always both sides to truth, when combined separates good from evil.
    always good and evil there are.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    -snip-
    I am at a total loss about anything you are making points about. Did you accidentally post in the wrong rogue thread/topic? I am serious, and I do apologize if it is just me that is failing to link anything here to the OP.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-10-09 at 05:28 AM. Reason: snipped

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by kaneem View Post
    I am at a total loss about anything you are making points about. Did you accidentally post in the wrong rogue thread/topic? I am serious, and I do apologize if it is just me that is failing to link anything here to the OP.
    I also have no idea what he is talking about

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    I also have no idea what he is talking about
    Ironically, he wanted to clarify.

    I don't understand what he's trying to point out either.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    I'm going to say it as it is to clarify.
    Thanks for clarifying... I think?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    -snip-
    Dude are you on shrooms? That did not make a bit of sense.

    On topic, I have no clue, maybe they are gemmed/reforged for a different spec or a specific fight. You can change reforges and gemming at any time. Looking at them now doesn't necessarily mean it was that when they ranked.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-10-09 at 05:27 AM. Reason: Snipped

  10. #10
    Get back to the original topic, please. Pruning a bit.

    No, I don't have any more idea where that's supposed to be than anyone else, but staring at it endlessly won't tell us anything about top rogues and current modeling/theory either.

  11. #11
    On a separate note, I remember reading that for fights with a lot of downtime Haste was actually proven to be superior to mastery. Granted this was during 5.3 when people were making the argument that mastery over haste offered a more consistent and less rng based build. However, on a purely patchwerk style fight in 5.4, does crit begin to pull way ahead of mastery and haste at high gear levels due to the set bonus(for assassination)? Also, what is the reasoning for haste being valued much at all for assassination now that is does not affect trink proc rates. I am aware that it still benefits the cloak and meta gem, but those already have fairly high proc chances to begin with. I have noticed that with high levels of haste(35ish % or so) I am forced to clip envenom a lot because of how easy it is to generate 5 anticipation charges during the envenom buff.
    Last edited by Gandalf; 2013-10-09 at 06:05 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    On a separate note, I remember reading that for fights with a lot of downtime Haste was actually proven to be superior to mastery. Granted this was during 5.3 when people were making the argument that mastery over haste offered a more consistent and less rng based build.
    Other way around. Haste is worse when you have to spend time off target. Mastery was more affected by RNG (not RNG based, just more effected).

    However, on a purely patchwerk style fight in 5.4, does crit begin to pull way ahead of mastery and haste at high gear levels due to the set bonus(for assassination)?
    No. For optimal single target dps, assuming full time on the target, you want your stats fairly balanced at high gear levels. I recall something like 10/8/8 haste/crit/mastery ratio, but its been a while so don't take my word for it.

    Also, what is the reasoning for haste being valued much at all for assassination now that is does not affect trink proc rates. I am aware that it still benefits the cloak and meta gem, but those already have fairly high proc chances to begin with.
    Meta gem and cloak proc. Already high proc rates mean exactly nothing.

    I have noticed that with high levels of haste(35ish % or so) I am forced to clip envenom a lot because of how easy it is to generate 5 anticipation charges during the envenom buff.
    That's fairly normal at high haste levels.

  13. #13
    Because crit/haste is a 1% increase at best and assumes single target and 100% uptime. Mastery pulls ahead in basically every real in-game application. It's the same reason you'll rarely find a combat rogue using rupture even though it is a theoretical dps increase (or was, last I checked).

    If you energy cap or stop swinging for even a few seconds, you've probably devalued that haste enough for mastery to equal or surpass it.
    If you AoE even once, you've probably caused enough extra poison damage for mastery to surpass crit which is only highly valued from the 2pc bonus that only affects single target abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Also, what is the reasoning for haste being valued much at all for assassination now that is does not affect trink proc rates. I am aware that it still benefits the cloak and meta gem, but those already have fairly high proc chances to begin with. I have noticed that with high levels of haste(35ish % or so) I am forced to clip envenom a lot because of how easy it is to generate 5 anticipation charges during the envenom buff.
    Pretty much autoattacks for poison procs. Good old fashioned autoattack has kept haste at a good value for assassin for many years.

  14. #14
    so what are we supposed to do on fights like garrosh where the first part of the fight is preyy much AOE the shit out of the adds and the other parts are mostly single target ? guess i would have to spec combat to get optimum results ^^
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    so what are we supposed to do on fights like garrosh where the first part of the fight is preyy much AOE the shit out of the adds and the other parts are mostly single target ? guess i would have to spec combat to get optimum results ^^
    Most likely you would let your Rogues tunnel Single Target non-stop and make other specs more suited for AoEing do the killing of the adds (25-man PoV).

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    so what are we supposed to do on fights like garrosh where the first part of the fight is preyy much AOE the shit out of the adds and the other parts are mostly single target ? guess i would have to spec combat to get optimum results ^^
    Garrosh isnt about AOE at all. The only adds are in the first phase--and they arent really that difficult to kill if your raid comp has any AOE in it. What is the most important on that boss (IMO) is single target damage, so I would reforge for that. (10 man POV)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rayanne View Post
    Garrosh isnt about AOE at all. The only adds are in the first phase--and they arent really that difficult to kill if your raid comp has any AOE in it. What is the most important on that boss (IMO) is single target damage, so I would reforge for that. (10 man POV)
    well im playing 25m and there are ALOT of adds in phase one and if you dont kill them in time they just rape your tanks and everyone else thats how it is so you cant just tunnel if your raid is undergeared and is laking AOE we usually get 3 waves of adds that barely die while getting garrosh to transition first wave is quite easy then hell breaks loose and add's just die very slowly also you can't ignore the heal wolf rider guy

    the rest of the fight is quite singletarget oriented depends on strat if you chose to cheese the adds that spawn with his whirlwind and just kite them around for the rest of the fight
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  18. #18
    It sorta depends. The AoE deltas are so damned large between classes that it feels silly to get even 10% more damage out of that when locks and eles can megadeeps.

    However, I would still recommend the aoe reforge- mostly because in current content, it hurts ST so little. It's not like you are losing much damage single target, and you ARE gaining that damage aoe. If it was a large drop- for instance, if mastery was your worst ST but your best AoE by a lot- I wouldn't think that.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    I have noticed that with high levels of haste(35ish % or so) I am forced to clip envenom a lot because of how easy it is to generate 5 anticipation charges during the envenom buff.
    Don't pool as much. At higher haste levels you can combat envenom buff clipping by pooling to a lower energy level. At higher energy levels you have less wait time and you gain more energy during the envenom buff, so you don't need to pool as high to fit x attacks during the buff window. If you pool to, say, 90 energy and find you are clipping envenom a lot, try pooling to only 80, or 70 energy, etc--adjust until you maximize envenom uptime.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-10-10 at 10:13 PM.

  20. #20
    I can't imagine going down to 5k mastery like Shadowcraft wants me to. It just isn't going to happen.

    To more directly answer OP's question, last night I logged a #8 on Protectors, a #10 Norushen that wasn't logged, #17 Dark Shaman, #24 Juggernaut. At one point had several other high ranks that seem to have dropped off. All this ignoring while Shadowcraft "recommends" in regards to flooding myself with Crit, and ignoring Mastery.

    I just now got back up to 12,195 Mastery with a few gear swaps from last night. Currently sitting at 11,139 Haste, and I've found that sitting at around 30% Crit unbuffed, I proc the 2pc more than enough. If I forged straight into Crit like it wanted me to, I'd probably not even notice of a difference in Silent Blades procs.

    At 30% unbuffed, I'm getting 2 stacks of Silent Blades pretty often. If I were to completely go crit, get around 60% crit, I'd get them more often, yeah, but at the expense of my poisons hitting like noodles? No thanks. I'd much rather take a consistent flow of damage than variable % based crit. I'd rather complete a fight consistently at, for example, 300k damage, then have a chance to do 320k, or even 280k or less if the ball doesn't bounce my way.

    As far as Garrosh goes, that fight is Subtlety's dream with 2 or 4pc, and Assurance of Consequence. Aside from the 2-3 AOE packs at the pull, the fight is completely single target (you might be asked to kill an add, maybe not), Garrosh doesn't do any funky turns or have any periods of time where you can't attack from behind him. AoC makes FW's uptime a little absurd. I can't wait to get my hands on an AoC and get rid of this Renataki.

    Edit: I'll probably go Subtlety full time at some point anyway, making the above relatively moot. Combat just isn't fun for me anymore. I really like Dispatch, though. Assassination keeps up with everything, and come execute phase, no one is going to touch you.
    Last edited by Daltin; 2013-10-10 at 10:40 PM.

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