1. #1

    Opening of Dk Frost Dw

    Hi guys

    I need some help whit this.
    How do you do to maximize your dps in the opening match?
    Given that opened with the army, the potion, pilar of frost and ghoul... how you would still to stay on the top of dps with the Frost DW?

    Thx family

  2. #2
    Follow your rotation?

  3. #3
    I open by
    1:Army
    2:Horn of winter
    3:Pre-pot
    4:Start with 1 OB to remove 1 UH rune
    Then pop cooldowns and continue my rotation.
    I Wait until i have my procs/trinkets/buffs until i use Raid dead, cuz he scales with all those things.
    I hope this is of any use for you. Also note that Frost DW burst isn't that strong so don't expect to be number 1 on the meters

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Timborjesson View Post
    I Wait until i have my procs/trinkets/buffs until i use Raid dead, cuz he scales with all those things.
    he scales dynamically. It's actually better to have him up before all those things because he takes like 3 seconds before he even starts doing anything.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    he scales dynamically. It's actually better to have him up before all those things because he takes like 3 seconds before he even starts doing anything.
    Oh, really well you learn something new everyday

  6. #6
    Something new? It was In MOP beta.
    Also, Obliterate is more often DPS loss than gain, too random.
    My opening:
    Army on 6-7pull timer
    Pot on 1s before pull
    HB DND while running to boss
    PL when reach boss
    Then Racial+PoF+SSprings->HB/Km FS
    Then pretty much usual rotation. If no bloodlust for start, and next DND is not on 15 sec CD,just PL dots to waste the unholy rube that just popped. After that pretty usual priority list.
    Obliterate is pretty Russian roulette on DPS, therefore I'm trying to ignore it mostly. About what to do with unholy runes, read Mendenbarr blog about Advanced Unholy tactics on EJ
    Last edited by Minoan; 2013-10-10 at 03:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    It forces you to double tap. that's it. It's a great change.
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    It's just so you can say you tapped something twice that day.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Minoan View Post
    About what to do with unholy runes, read Mendenbarr blog about Advanced Unholy tactics on EJ
    It doesn't just work like that for Frost. DnD scales with Unholy's Mastery, but not Frosts. IIRC, you dont even use DnD single target as frost.

  8. #8
    ...And Obliterate scales? Since when? And with what chance? Are you sure it worth it? Think twice, read the Elitist Jerks or here you are some numbers.
    I am 559 ilvl, and from what I remember last time, non-KM Obli hits ~100k for me. Howling Blast(guaranteed 140-165k)+DnD(11ticks*~8k)+DoT(Frost Fever)refresh. And you know, Speaking of crit ticks, HB+DnD has more ticks to overvalue even 200k obliterate that had crit from both hands without wasting km(big luck), but not procced rime.
    I know that you will say that KM Obli will hit for 200k, and can proc 150k HB for free, but with what chance? Spending KM on Obli=losing double damage(KM FS hits 350-450k for me depending on trinket uptime etc). What if Rime will proc and crit too? And what if not?
    These are the questions from my Understanding on DW.
    Once again, read EJ, I may copy paste that if one more LFR theorycrafter will shout out false knowledge, but I gave enough arguments to you to speak about it yourself. Or better, once again, read EJ and get some high level knowledge from #Acherus members
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    It forces you to double tap. that's it. It's a great change.
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    It's just so you can say you tapped something twice that day.

  9. #9
    I never said anything about Obliterate. I commented on DnD for the use of the Unholy rune. If you go to the Howling Blargh section of the Elitist Jerks forums, and go to the single target rotation for DW, you won't see Death and Decay. 9/14H, I'm not some random LFR theorycrafting shouting out false knowledge. I don't know if it was a typo, but look at EXACTLY what i quoted... Advanced UNHOLY tactics. I rarely use Obliterate, only when I have a second UH rune coming up, PL on CD, and there isn't another target to Plague Strike.

    OT: I open with HB till I get to melee, PS, HB till out of runes, FS, PL with 2 seconds left on Procs, PS at the final second, and then into normal rotation
    Last edited by Astro9866; 2013-10-10 at 12:46 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Minoan View Post
    ...And Obliterate scales? Since when? And with what chance? Are you sure it worth it? Think twice, read the Elitist Jerks or here you are some numbers.
    ...
    Once again, read EJ, I may copy paste that if one more LFR theorycrafter will shout out false knowledge, but I gave enough arguments to you to speak about it yourself. Or better, once again, read EJ and get some high level knowledge from #Acherus members
    You keep saying this, but have you actually read it yourself? here, i'll do it for you:

    DW Priority
    Blood Tap if you have 11 or more stacks of blood charge
    Frost Strike if Killing Machine is procced, or if RP is 89 or higher
    Howling Blastwith both frost or both death off cooldown
    Soul Reaper when target below 35%
    Plague Strike if one Unholy Rune is off cooldown and blood plague is down/nearly down
    Howling Blast if Rime procced
    Frost Strikeif RP is 77 or higher
    Obliterate when 1 or more Unholy Runes are off cooldown and killing machine is down
    Howling Blast
    Blood Tap
    Frost Strikeif RP is 40 or higher
    Horn of Winter
    Plague Leech
    Empower Rune Weapon
    Use up rime procs, use frost strike to get below 77 runic, and then use obliterate to make unholy runes go away. Next just spam howling blast and blood tap, and then frost strike (but don't go below 20 runic, save that for a killing machine proc), and if you've got nothing else to do, use horn of winter and plague leech and empower rune weapon to generate runes and runic.
    http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t132171-...#Single_Target

    Menden said you could use a different rotation at near bis with only a slight dps loss
    Last edited by bals; 2013-10-10 at 12:44 AM.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minoan View Post
    ...And Obliterate scales? Since when? And with what chance? Are you sure it worth it? Think twice, read the Elitist Jerks or here you are some numbers.
    I am 559 ilvl, and from what I remember last time, non-KM Obli hits ~100k for me. Howling Blast(guaranteed 140-165k)+DnD(11ticks*~8k)+DoT(Frost Fever)refresh. And you know, Speaking of crit ticks, HB+DnD has more ticks to overvalue even 200k obliterate that had crit from both hands without wasting km(big luck), but not procced rime.
    I know that you will say that KM Obli will hit for 200k, and can proc 150k HB for free, but with what chance? Spending KM on Obli=losing double damage(KM FS hits 350-450k for me depending on trinket uptime etc). What if Rime will proc and crit too? And what if not?
    These are the questions from my Understanding on DW.
    Once again, read EJ, I may copy paste that if one more LFR theorycrafter will shout out false knowledge, but I gave enough arguments to you to speak about it yourself. Or better, once again, read EJ and get some high level knowledge from #Acherus members
    Considering you are terribly wrong I find it quite humerus you are slinging insults.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    You keep saying this, but have you actually read it yourself? here, i'll do it for you:




    http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t132171-...#Single_Target

    Menden said you could use a different rotation at near bis with only a slight dps loss
    Oh you. Here, I will do it for you.
    Mastering unholy runes


    In the case of dual wield, even before stacking mastery, 2 howling blasts hit harder than an obliterate, and as such howling blast takes a far more prominent spot in our priority. Unfortunately, while both frost and death runes can be used for said howling blast, unholy runes cannot, often leaving us with 2 ugly green runes to get rid of before we can go back to spamming HB and FS. (single target)
    There are three ways to get rid of unholy runes, let's see which is the best.
    Death and decay: 88.6k dmg
    Plague strike:48.6k dmg + FP*2, 54k + disease, 22k per 3 seconds
    Obliterate: 175k dmg + FP*2, 54k +45% chance for free HB, 117.6 = 292.6k dmg
    HB: 261.4k *FP, 27k dmg

    Obviously your best bet is double HBs whenever possible, but let's say you have 1 unholy and 1 frost/death, what should you do?
    In order from best to worst:
    Using plague leech, plague strike and 3 howling blasts gives 831.6k dmg
    Using plague strike and HB gives 530k dmg IF diseases are about to fall off
    Using DnD and HB gives 350k dmg
    Using plague strike and HB gives 310k dmg
    Using obliterate gives 292.6k dmg
    Ignoring the unholy rune and just spending the frost/death on HB gives 261.4k dmg

    While it's true you can use plague strike and howling blast at half disease duration and count the 50% refresh as 110k dmg, it prolongs the ability to fully refresh diseases via the top option for 15 seconds, and is therefore not a damage gain. If blood plague is not just about to fall off, count it as if it isn't refreshing at all. This includes times when you use PL to take BP off early.

    So, if diseases are about to fall off, plauge leech is off cd, or dnd is off cd, use the above options to remove unholy runes, otherwise just use obliterate if you have to.

    Note: Due to DW's current state of being close to GCD locked most of the time, we need to reexamine the way to deal with unholy runes. While the above-mentioned list is accurate in terms of numbers, obliterate is more complicated than it seems. Obliterate has two possibilities, it either does 175k in one GCD, or 436k dmg in 2 GCDs. While we can average this out easily, as done above, the GCD cost has to be considered. Using DnD/HB or PS/HB does slightly more than obliterate on average, but costs 2 GCDs. Using obliterate over DnD is a gain if you are GCD capped. Depending on luck, you'll either gain free damage with the rime proc, or gain a GCD which will avoid overflowing resources which will be a damage gain. If you are not GCD capped, DnD/HB and PS/HB wins out.
    http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t131138-...g_unholy_runes

    about DIFFERENT ROTATION-it was also about ignoring SR. I said nothiong about SR, because it still hits harder then my HB, but that's personal. Probably, when it will be possible to keep up 6-9 2t16 mastery bonus on execute without any breaks, I would use that.

    So, to conclude-Mendenbarr states that numbers and I will point my view on things.
    1.HB+PL>obliterate if diseases are just applied on pull. We're still talking about pull, right? So, we wasted 1st UH rune
    2.HB+DnD>obliterate if only you're not wasting KM on Obliterate, hoping to get Rime(which you might not get, therefore it is a DPS loss). Wasting KM on Obli hoping that Rime will appear and crit, on pull with trinket procs and prepot-100% DPS waste, you will do more with one KM FS with all procs in 1 gcd.
    So, we wasted 2nd UH rune.
    I might doing a mistake here, but my 3rd UH rune goes to reapply diseases I soaked before by Plague leech because I still have a prepot and at least one trinket procced and I have enough time to put 2 overpowered HBs in this opening burst window that closes shortly.
    Yes, Mend stated that it may do 436k DPS in 2 GCD, it may do times less with bigger chance(!2h Obli crit from both weps with our level of crit and then rime crit-fairytale, and I'm working in science sphere) but you should be very GCD capped(and the only way for that is bloodlust on start and ignoring single target DND/applying Blood Plague by outbreak), since Blood Tap is not giving you 2 random rune regeneration procs to cap you that hard on start.
    Ask yourself-Risk with using Obli, or get 350k dps guaranteed?
    I hope you are not using Outbreak on cooldown, like this warrior Darkfriend, what I found very humorous in his logs?

    I might reconsider my point of view on that things, I haven't done half of the fights in SoO normal as a frost yet, done all as UH on progression. But so far I was so GCD capped with plague leech+AMS that I am always either on high RP, and after I drop it I usually have 2 frost runes I can spend straight forward. And then it is DnD time, then BP reapply time, then AMS soaking time to survive and spam FS to cover yourself with capped BT charges... Didn't have much windows for obliterate, especially on pull, when having crit banner and DnD ticks will guarantee you more DPS than rolling the dice on Obli, hoping that everything will crit.
    Last edited by Minoan; 2013-10-10 at 03:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    It forces you to double tap. that's it. It's a great change.
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    It's just so you can say you tapped something twice that day.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Minoan View Post
    Ask yourself-Risk with using Obli, or get 350k dps guaranteed?
    "Depending on luck, you'll either gain free damage with the rime proc, or gain a GCD which will avoid overflowing resources which will be a damage gain."

    You're not really risking anything when you're gcd capped. Either way, you either get a rime proc, or a freed up gcd which you can use on FS or HB or w/e.

    That said, if you have the 4p, and PoF is up, you shouldn't use obliterate because of Frozen Power.

  14. #14
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
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    tl;dr of the above bitching is only Oblit when you're Rune-capping/GCD-locked. Otherwise keep using the normal single-target priority. I can understand confusion with the opener seeing as we're "capped" from the start, but we don't want to waste GCDs on Outbreak so...

    Depending on the fight I normally:
    -7s: AotD
    -2s: RD
    -1s: Pre-pot
    0s: PoF+HB
    1s: PS
    2s: HB
    3s: HB

    This should leave you with 1U + 1D and RP, and go from there. Usually PL for another 2 runes.

  15. #15
    are you that GCD capped on pull, assuming you're wasting 2 UH runes on Dnd+pl?
    place DND on CD ASAP=more Dnd-more stable damage-more Uh runes wasted-less scenarios for obli. Good opener makes life easier on fight
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    It forces you to double tap. that's it. It's a great change.
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    It's just so you can say you tapped something twice that day.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Um you are wrong once again. The alternate rotation wasn't ignoring SR. It was ignoring DnD/OB and using PS to dump UH runes. Mend called it "Master-simple" and I believe from a tell he sent me a while ago it was between .5-10% DPS loss.

    As for being the best DW DK ever, I don't claim that. I reserve that claim for my warrior. That being said, I'd say I know the theory and practice behind it about as well as anyone else. Attack my points.

    But basically you've been wrong about at least three things that have been pointed out so far, without giving one whit of good evidence or reasoning to support your vitriol, and thus your credibility is lacking, and thus I bring that into question.

    Oh one last thing, you are conflating RNG with averages. Yes, due to bad RNG using OB might not net a rime proc. But it is flat out stupid and idiotic to say "well it MIGHT not proc therefore it is NOT a dps gain." You must consider the average, not just one case, to come to a conclusion. Basically the math would be OB+(rime proc chance-45%) V HB+PS, modified to account for the average 1.45 GCDs of the first and the guaranteed 2 of the second, as well as the difference in RP gain, (which is PS-12+HB-12=24 v OB+45% rime or 24+(12x.45)=29.4)

    I will agree that yes, if OB doesn't proc rime it would be less DPS than doing HB+PS. However, that isn't relevant in any universe. The averages are what matter.

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