Thread: DR on Crit?

  1. #1
    Grunt Somhairle's Avatar
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    DR on Crit?

    Regarding reforging. I've scanned through some threads already up related to reforging and can't find an answer.
    I'm hear rumors that there is a DR for hunters on Crit and it's around 50% but I can't find any reliable online resource that states it. Do any of you know of anything regarding the sort?

    Taa

  2. #2
    Well, the value of haste and mastery *relative to* a high crit level will shift naturally, but that's not the same thing as diminishing returns. To my knowledge, there's no diminishing returns on crit.

  3. #3
    Crit loses value the more you have, aside from that I don't think so

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somhairle View Post
    Regarding reforging. I've scanned through some threads already up related to reforging and can't find an answer.
    I'm hear rumors that there is a DR for hunters on Crit and it's around 50% but I can't find any reliable online resource that states it. Do any of you know of anything regarding the sort?

    Taa
    Never heard of anything like it (Maybe back in Wrath - ICC times). Sounds odd to have crit decrease in value the more you get. I'll keep an eye out on this thread though, hopefully a knowledgeable hunter will enlighten us. ^_^

  5. #5
    Grunt Somhairle's Avatar
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    Yeah, I would of thought so too. I've been playing a hunter for 5 years and this tier from another hunter I raid with has been the first time I've heard of it. He said he read it on the EJ Forums but I've scanned through and can't find anything mentioning it anywhere.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesiz View Post
    Sounds odd to have crit decrease in value the more you get.
    That's the core of secondary stat assessment. There's a point where your crit gets so high that it becomes more beneficial to unload more of those crits inside a certain window of time (haste) or increase the base power of a certain number of attacks (surv/bm mastery).

    You can just do that with easy numbers to get the idea. Say you shoot 10 shots, 1 shot per second, for 1 damage. With no stats, you'll do 10 damage.

    Add 10% crit, and you'll do 11 damage.
    20% crit, and you'll do 12 damage.
    30% crit, and you'll do 13 damage.

    So on and so forth.

    Now assume you have 90% crit, do you'd do 19 damage in 10 seconds.
    Now try increasing haste by 10% instead of adding that last 10% of crit. So, you'd do 1.1 shots per second, and you'd do 11 shots in 10 seconds. 11 shots with 90% crit would be 11*.9 + 1 = 20.8 damage. Adding that last 10% for 100% crit chance would only give you 20 damage total. So, the 10% haste gives you more damage overall than another 10% of crit would.

    In WoW, things aren't nearly this neat and clean, but you get the idea. That's how values shift.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    That's the core of secondary stat assessment. There's a point where your crit gets so high that it becomes more beneficial to unload more of those crits inside a certain window of time (haste) or increase the base power of a certain number of attacks (surv/bm mastery).

    You can just do that with easy numbers to get the idea. Say you shoot 10 shots, 1 shot per second, for 1 damage. With no stats, you'll do 10 damage.

    Add 10% crit, and you'll do 11 damage.
    20% crit, and you'll do 12 damage.
    30% crit, and you'll do 13 damage.

    So on and so forth.

    Now assume you have 90% crit, do you'd do 19 damage in 10 seconds.
    Now try increasing haste by 10% instead of adding that last 10% of crit. So, you'd do 1.1 shots per second, and you'd do 11 shots in 10 seconds. 11 shots with 90% crit would be 11*.9 + 1 = 20.8 damage. Adding that last 10% for 100% crit chance would only give you 20 damage total. So, the 10% haste gives you more damage overall than another 10% of crit would.

    In WoW, things aren't nearly this neat and clean, but you get the idea. That's how values shift.
    True, but since not all attacks benefit equally from one stat, finding that point where the value of one stat overcomes another is likely impossible, even with Sims.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Somhairle View Post
    Regarding reforging. I've scanned through some threads already up related to reforging and can't find an answer.
    I'm hear rumors that there is a DR for hunters on Crit and it's around 50% but I can't find any reliable online resource that states it. Do any of you know of anything regarding the sort?

    Taa
    you want to balance your master with high crit %, but that dosnt mean crit DR at 50%, mastery get buffed by crit same with haste, having 100% crit while would be amazing is better to lose some in order to gain mastery and haste.

    you need to sim yourself to see how your stats balance around.

    this is only true for BM, for survival isnt the case unless you crit cap wich is imposible i belive. i dont know anything about marks so wont comment on it.

    this prolly around for hunters that were seeing a high mastery value when the patch droped.

  9. #9
    High Overlord McLockhart's Avatar
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    I guess you could say that crit diminishes the more you have. Assuming you have 0 % crit, the first 1 % crit would increase your damage by 1 %. If you have 50 % crit and add 1 additional % crit you'd receive less of a damage increase. (I'm too tired to say if that would be .5 % of a damage increase..)

    So it would make sense that your other secondary stats become better the more crit you have. Where the lines cross is a different question which I can't answer since It would depend on class and spec.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    True, but since not all attacks benefit equally from one stat, finding that point where the value of one stat overcomes another is likely impossible, even with Sims.
    Yep, exactly. Hence my last line: "Things aren't nearly this neat and clean."

  11. #11
    Grunt Somhairle's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts, I'll have a play around with sims and different reforges and see what I can come up with.

  12. #12
    For BM, there's a point where you'll have enough Haste and Crit to have your pet above 50 focus at all time. Actually, you should already be there when you are ´hasted´ (with >30% haste and >38% crit) which is a large % of the time now.

  13. #13
    Blademaster Trictagon's Avatar
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    There is no DR for crit. It is always 600 rating gives you 1% crit chance; however, as others have stated, as you gain more crit the value of other stats increases. Think of it this way: if you crit, your mastery was twice as effective that hit. Example: say you have a non crit kc for 100k and you have 20% mastery, this becomes 120k. If that crit, it would do 200k and become 240k after mastery (40k gain vs 20k). This means every 1% crit you gain, mastery becomes 1% better per point ( ex: say 1 mastery gives you 5 dps at 0% crit, it would give you 7.5dps at 50% crit).

    There is of course the argument of it not giving you as much %dps per point as you get more of it, but this is true for everything. Unless you gain other stats, 1 crit rating will always give you the same dps (random number) say 5 dps per crit rating. If you do 100k dps this 5 dps seems much larger than it would if you did 300k, but this does not mean it "DRs," as this effect is true for every stat in the game.

    For SV mastery only passes crit in value at 75.75% average crit chance due to the high 600 rating required for just 1% magic damage, can post math if needed (this math was done on PTR so I may need to do it again to check accuracy).

    This synergy between crit and mastery goes both ways - as you gain crit, mastery becomes better, as you gain mastery, crit becomes better (I left haste out of this because its not very good for examples and doesn't work as easily as simple plus % dmg stats like crit/mastery).

    Ratings per one percent:
    Crit: 600 rating per 1% (all classes/specs)
    Haste: 425 rating per 1% (all classes/specs)
    SV mastery: 600 rating for 1% (magic dmg)
    BM mastery: 300 rating per 1% (pet dmg)
    Last edited by Trictagon; 2013-10-13 at 11:19 PM.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Asrialol's Avatar
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    The only time Crit really "diminishes" is if you have an ability with an increased crit chance. That and the fact that you have 3% less crit against raid bosses.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Trictagon View Post
    Ratings per one percent:
    Crit: 600 rating per 1% (all classes/specs)
    Haste: 425 rating per 1% (all classes/specs)
    SV mastery: 600 rating for 1% (magic dmg)
    BM mastery: 300 rating per 1% (pet dmg)
    So.... I rarely play BM, so I dont know what % of your total damage should be done by your pet(s), but I do often see some hunters playing BM where their pet does close to or more than 50% of their damage..

    If that is the case, could mastery actually be better than crit for hunters of average or lesser skill?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    So.... I rarely play BM, so I dont know what % of your total damage should be done by your pet(s), but I do often see some hunters playing BM where their pet does close to or more than 50% of their damage..

    If that is the case, could mastery actually be better than crit for hunters of average or lesser skill?
    It depends on the fight and sometimes RNG, sometimes your pet will do even more damage than you. But what Trictagon said remains true here; crit affects not only what you do but what your pet does, so while mastery would have increased the damage your pet did, crit would have increased your own damage and further increased your pet's damage.

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