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  1. #1

    Can't find out why tanks keep dying

    We recently had a few people come back to the game and reroll to raid 10 mans. Most of the people in our raid are undergeared, but we've been making good progress relative to gear. One of the issue that is constantly coming up is both our tanks getting wrecked. No matter how hard they are spam healed, they're dropping like flies on 90% of the fights. We're running a monk and warrior tank and I have no knowledge at all about what they could be doing wrong. Below are logs from just a few fights (don't have the ones from last week when we killed 10 or so bosses, but should have some more up today evening) :
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/evidoeg7zjezwny8/

    Here are their armories:
    Warrior:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...on/Mtay/simple

    Monk:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...istraza/simple

    Any help would be appreciated since I am completely lost here.
    Last edited by mystogunn; 2013-10-10 at 07:13 PM.

  2. #2
    Warriors with survivability issues should stack mastery. Parry/dodge are spikier in terms of damage taken and greater in terms of damage done, so the warrior can switch to that after survivability is not an issue. Stacking stamina should not be necessary at this gear level. Warrior tier two-set is a big deal survivability wise, and at your level of progression, he should be able to get that in a week or two, especially if he runs the flex raids too.

  3. #3
    Man at no time do warriors ever stack dodge that is a must change for your warrior tank.

  4. #4
    Also, he should be using shield block as the default, and only switch to shield barrier with fights where non-physical damage is a significantly greater threat. The log doesn't show him using any cooldowns, but I might be missing them in the logs. Proper cooldown usage comes with practice and is key on progression content. I usually macro the minor ones to shield bash, and use the greater ones: shield wall, last stand, demoralizing banner, rallying cry as appropriate. Icy veins and Mr. robot have good advice.

  5. #5
    People coming back are prone to assuming what they knew is still valid and it seems that this really isn't the case for tanks. A Wrath tank who knew how to gear and play back then will make a lot of assumptions that are just wrong for MoP.

    For anyone coming back who's not played at a raid level in MoP, make sure that the read up on their class and role here and at Icy Veins. That will at least get them the basics on stat weights and playstyle.

    Tanks seem to take much more active mitigation now vs in Wrath, etc where concepts like effective health were important so it could also be that the game assumes that the player is actively helping to prevent damage and the players are assuming damage reduction from passive stats which will lead to the situation you see.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-10-10 at 06:47 PM.

  6. #6
    Trevor, with the changes in 5.4 dodge is not bad for warrior tanks, though it is still bad for tanks with survivability issues.

  7. #7
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaawumba View Post
    Warriors with survivability issues should stack mastery. Parry/dodge are spikier in terms of damage taken and greater in terms of damage done, so the warrior can switch to that after survivability is not an issue. Stacking stamina should not be necessary at this gear level. Warrior tier two-set is a big deal survivability wise, and at your level of progression, he should be able to get that in a week or two, especially if he runs the flex raids too.
    Yet can be offset by the increase rage you gain due to more revenges and thus dumping more excess rage into s.barrier. Tanks dieing with 537 ilevel is less a gearing issue and more of a 1)active mitigation not being used or 2)healing not being able to keep up or 3) 1+2. However I woud sugest that they eithe rpick avoidance or mastery and go all out in those.. at this time there gemming is all over the board from pure stam, to avoidance gems to mast gems and that should be looked at and fixed.

    The armory won't really provide much as there are so many choices for wars that are valid for raiding now the real game changer is going to be in what they are doing and how they are keeping there active mitigation up!

    So looking at your logs I see you went for some Heroic attempts on immers but that didn't go so well. I will focus on protectors instead!

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...tab-auras-cast

    This is your wars buffs cast for attempt # 2 on protectors from last night. Now there are a couple MAJOR things that are missing here and I will list them to give some reasoning why the war is dieing

    Cd's not used at all
    Demoralizing shout, Rallyign cry, Last stand, Demo banner, health stone

    As you can see thre are allot of the big mitigation CD's that are not being used at ALL and looking over each fight it's the same thing over and over.

    In general they are not using half of what they shoudl and can use as a prot warrior. I would highly sugest sending them to the war forums here for a refresher on prot war tanking! As a comparison here is my buffs cast breakdown for the same fight
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...tab-auras-cast

    The other thing is they are also not changing there talents/glyph per fight. Protectors should not have shock wave as a talent and they would be much better served with dragon roar and bloodbath. Toss in glyph of rude interuption to boost dps and they would be doing much better dmg wise! 79k from a tank use to be ok but now it's just not acceptable for a tank to be pulling numbers that low compared to dps.

    Looking at the Immers normal kill you can see again in the buffs cast thre is allot of things missing and the biggest one that stands out is the really low shield block and barrier up times. Even if you are not tanking you want to keep shield block up due to the Heavy repercusions glyph boosting dmg. as well no intervene means they are not keepign up there vengance while off tnaking and not having a shot at keepign riposte up while off tanking either.

    In general the prot war is playing an old style more similar to WOTLK than the current active mitigation style of tanking we have.

    PS: Heroic strike / cleave shoudd ONLY be cast with ultimatum procs!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor7782 View Post
    Man at no time do warriors ever stack dodge that is a must change for your warrior tank.
    I would highly sugest you go read up on 5.4 changes ASAP before handing out this kind of advise!
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-10-10 at 07:04 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaawumba View Post
    Warriors with survivability issues should stack mastery. Parry/dodge are spikier in terms of damage taken and greater in terms of damage done, so the warrior can switch to that after survivability is not an issue. Stacking stamina should not be necessary at this gear level. Warrior tier two-set is a big deal survivability wise, and at your level of progression, he should be able to get that in a week or two, especially if he runs the flex raids too.
    I spoke to him some time ago and it seems like he has been blindly following Scos (prot warrior from Method) gearing strat which obviously is not a good idea in his gear level. Will bring that to his attention. Thanks for pointing it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaawumba View Post
    Also, he should be using shield block as the default, and only switch to shield barrier with fights where non-physical damage is a significantly greater threat. The log doesn't show him using any cooldowns, but I might be missing them in the logs. Proper cooldown usage comes with practice and is key on progression content. I usually macro the minor ones to shield bash, and use the greater ones: shield wall, last stand, demoralizing banner, rallying cry as appropriate. Icy veins and Mr. robot have good advice.
    I do see some cooldowns come up on death logs using http://www.toprealm.fr/Deaths.html but it could be not using them at the right time. It doesn't help that both of them rerolled tanks even though they've never done it before so hopefully that will come with practice to them.

  9. #9
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystogunn View Post
    I spoke to him some time ago and it seems like he has been blindly following Scos (prot warrior from Method) gearing strat which obviously is not a good idea in his gear level. Will bring that to his attention. Thanks for pointing it out.
    .
    25 heroic tanks will have a very different gearing path especially during progress where they tend to gem/gear for a specific boss compared to a 10 man raider.

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Art3x's Avatar
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    The monk is gemming and enchanting completely wrong as well. For 10s on normal, most monks just stack a load of crit after going exp and hit to caps. If he really feels squishy then go mastery. No reason to gem for stam in 10s though, at all.

    He should also be using Dancing Steel, not colossus on weapon. Shuffle uptime is low on protectors also.

    Need to change glyphs as well.

    Over the exp and hit caps.

    I'm sure there is more a better monk could find.
    Last edited by Art3x; 2013-10-10 at 07:20 PM.

  11. #11
    I really doubt that gemming/reforging is the reason your tanks are taking so much damage, especially in normal. Looking at your warrior, his gear is more than adequate. More likely than not, either your healers can't cope with damage all around or your tanks are not using their active mitigation properly.

    Your logs are hard to read since immerseus didn't come out right, but looking at your 3 protector attempts, it honestly just looks like there a lot of healing that needs to go around. You could try 3 healing fights instead, the enrage checks in normal are very lenient for the most part.

  12. #12
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    What, exactly, is your monk tank using his chi on if it's not Blackout Kick? Unless I'm reading it wrong, it's showing a 20% uptime.... 20%!!!!! That is not very good - it needs to be AT LEAST 80% uptime, if not higher. Breath of Fire should be taken off their bars until they know to use the chi on blackout kick. It's a HUGE difference! I'm assuming that's probably why they are gemming stam and mastery, but if they increase shuffle uptime, they can put those stats into crit, which is actually a monk's best stat (at least in 10 man).
    This needs to be fixed, pronto.
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelicat View Post
    I really doubt that gemming/reforging is the reason your tanks are taking so much damage, especially in normal. Looking at your warrior, his gear is more than adequate. More likely than not, either your healers can't cope with damage all around or your tanks are not using their active mitigation properly.

    Your logs are hard to read since immerseus didn't come out right, but looking at your 3 protector attempts, it honestly just looks like there a lot of healing that needs to go around. You could try 3 healing fights instead, the enrage checks in normal are very lenient for the most part.
    I am one of the healers and even when we use 3 healers, tank deaths are still there. I have healed several alt runs prior to this and tank damage has never been this big of an issue. It could be a combination of both so I will spam heal the tanks only in tonights run along with several other changes suggested in this thread to see if it changes anything.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by mystogunn View Post
    I am one of the healers and even when we use 3 healers, tank deaths are still there. I have healed several alt runs prior to this and tank damage has never been this big of an issue. It could be a combination of both so I will spam heal the tanks only in tonights run along with several other changes suggested in this thread to see if it changes anything.
    I don't know much about monk tanks at all, but looking at your warrior's log, he definitely can do a lot better.

    He wasn't using shield slam as much as he can and wasted a lot of S&B procs. That is a lot of rage he could have to put into active mitigation.

    His shield block uptime is really random. There are times where it's not up for a good 30 seconds. If you shield block as often as possible (even though you shouldn't since almost every fight has it's window where you have downtime not tanking), there will be a small window where you need to let it recharge, and you fill in that time with demoralizing shout/shield wall etc depending on the situation. He never used demoralizing shout at all.

    He needs to be able to monitor weakened blows on targets as well where no one else can help him keep it up for him. The boss he was tanking (he softfoot) had good uptime on it but I'm saying for other fights jic.

    Even then, damage on him doesn't seem to be the issue. I imagine the monk tank is the issue but I can't tell for sure since I know nothing about monks.
    Last edited by Angelicat; 2013-10-10 at 08:03 PM.

  15. #15
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystogunn View Post
    I am one of the healers and even when we use 3 healers, tank deaths are still there. I have healed several alt runs prior to this and tank damage has never been this big of an issue. It could be a combination of both so I will spam heal the tanks only in tonights run along with several other changes suggested in this thread to see if it changes anything.
    This will happen because the gear your tanks have is FINE for this content but they are far form outgearing it and there active mitigation is really low so basically they are acting like mana sponges instead of negating most of the damage they should be. As soon as they start to use there active mitigation and there short CD's often and keeping there big ones for "o shit" moments you will see a huge drop in deaths!

    Example if the war was tanking rook (actually should be so he can tank rook on sun with glyph of rude interuptiona and pummeling her casts as much as possible and hitting them both with dragon roar, cleave, revenge, thunder clap etc) the war could be saving and using demo should right before Rook stuns them as well as tossing up a shield barrier. Since you get stunned and then hit it's best to have a nice shield or minor cd for it to help smooth that over.

    Another thing that will help is if your prot war learns how to use the extra action button for Mark of anguish. If you look at the dmg breakdown and it's clear that he is gettign the debuff and just holding on to it and tankign the add. What the raid should be doing is passing that around and not just having the tank ramp up with that many stacks. Toss it to some one with good deff CD's say your locks or rogue and then once the add gets close to them and there cd's are up they can toss it to teh next lock, and then to the rogue, and than mage etc (as you can see here our tank never gets any debuff / dmg from that ability yet its more than 40% of Mtay's dmg taken http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...?s=1888&e=2261 ).

    At the moment it's combination of no active mitigation, not using specific raid mechanics, and not min maxing through glyph + gear and talents so basically making healers lives hell!

  16. #16
    Use World of Logs and check what kills them and if they are keeping their defensive buffs up and/or if they are using cooldowns at the right time.

    Pretty easy to find out what kills them.

  17. #17
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelicat View Post
    His shield block uptime is really random. There are times where it's not up for a good 30 seconds. If you shield block as often as possible (even though you shouldn't since almost every fight has it's window where you have downtime not tanking),.
    Not true even when off tanking you should keep it up due to glyph of heavy repercusions and the only time you would not use it is to pool rage right before a taunt swap or to dump into a S.barier for some aoe style ability. Other than that the rage you generate while off tanking should be dumped into s.block to keep HR glyph active and nailing the boss with SS everytime its up. This would also do wonders for there dps as it's really low and you need tanks to contribute to dps in 10 man.

  18. #18
    If you are undergeared always go for EH first. Thus armor + stamina as far as you can take it. Once you are on par with your tier you can go either mastery or avoidance as a tank. Both work but need decent amount of secondary stats and a good base on your EH to work.

    The warrior is missing the legendary chain. Of course this is bad since you miss out on alot of cool tank buffs. Try go get that chain going as best as you can.
    He is using green quality gems. Boy that is fresh lvl 90 food and you are rocking SoO.

    Two good stamina trinkets would be golden right now.

    For protectors use Bloodbath + Dragon Roar. Keep adds tight and AoE as best as you can.
    The warrior had 38% shield block uptime on the best try on Protectors. Everything above 50% is really good. Make sure to spend your rage on shield block first and leftover rage in barrier if you take blockable damage.

    But all in all the warrior damage taken on protectors is fine. The monk is more of a problem.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by mystogunn View Post
    We recently had a few people come back to the game and reroll to raid 10 mans. Most of the people in our raid are undergeared, but we've been making good progress relative to gear. One of the issue that is constantly coming up is both our tanks getting wrecked. No matter how hard they are spam healed, they're dropping like flies on 90% of the fights. We're running a monk and warrior tank and I have no knowledge at all about what they could be doing wrong. Below are logs from just a few fights (don't have the ones from last week when we killed 10 or so bosses, but should have some more up today evening) :


    Any help would be appreciated since I am completely lost here.
    The monk tank reeeeally needs to go read some brewmaster forums, everything is wrong. for 10 man he should be going full crit after hit and exp caps, with 4500-5000 haste if wanted. the only boss mastery is viable on in 10 man normals is garrosh till he gets more geared. no idea WHY he has stamina gems, wrong wrong wrong. he should scrap the rook's trinket because its terrible, any of the agi "dps" trinkets (except the sha of pride one) is MUCH better. his glyphs are also wrong, no idea why he'd have breath of fire glyphed. I personally NEVER use breath of fire, 5 sec extra of shuffle is so much better. spinning crane kick glyph is fine, but he should have fortifying brew glyph because its benefits are so obvious. the 3rd glyph can depend on the fight, personally for most fights I like the zen meditation glyph, but again this is situational. he should also only use rushing jade wind on pure AOE fights (garrosh, galakras etc). Zuen for the DPS is way better, also allows him to use his energy on jab etc.
    also like others said, he needs as close as 100% uptime on shuffle as he can get. and also if he goes crit, he can have decent uptime on elusive brew.
    if he doesn't take these comments on board, replace him tbh. the fact that he's raiding without reading guides and tips for brewmaster anyway is shameful

  20. #20
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Just want to comment about your raid from last night! Way better night from Mtay (high five). Sure there are allot of things to still fine tune and get them using but overall they did way better on there active mitigation and you can see there dps went up as well!

    Love when you see a "could people please provide feedback" then you look at the logs a night or 2 after said thread and people actually use the information that is provided! You can also see during the night they were slowly getting more use to it and comfortable... protectors buffs cast kind of minimal but all the important ones were there with good uptimes... by nazgrim you start to see reck, shatering throw, good demo shout use, good shield block etc etc. So as the night went on they were using more and more of there abilities!



    Only thing I would sugest now is glyph/talent min maxing for encounters (ex they should be using dragon roar and blood bath combo for most fights and shockwave should only really be used if you need add controll ). Perhaps using askmrrobot to get there forges and gems in order would also help a little. I personally edit the stat weights on askMRrobot so that parry and dodge are 1.4 and enable "at least" for the hit exp cap. This is not "the best" setup (should really use SimC for your stat weights) as there is not one best way but will give an idea of what they could be going for... as for HP they have more than enough as is... heck they have more HP than I do!

    Please pass on a "great job" to Mtay!

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