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  1. #1
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Did Kairoz change the timeline?

    Right then, Maddy says I'm on crazy juice but he's just silly. The following theory works, it works I says! *Ahem* Uh right, the actual topic.

    I do believe there is more going on with Kairoz on the Timeless Isle than we're told. What peaked my curiosity was when he subtly hinted that the newest vision (the one with Garrosh and Anduin) was indeed part of our timeline. What could this mean? Well, the way my Stargate-infused brain processed it... we are witnessing something pretty big. It may just be that a member of the Bronze Dragonflight has directly begun tampering with the timelines.

    I shall specifically point out when a vision deviates from what we perceive as the 'proper' timeline.

    Let's start with the first vision. Nothing special there, we simply see how Thrall and Varok Saurfang manage to infiltrate Orgrimmar. This is almost certainly part of our timeline.

    The second one shows us that the Klaxxi have joined forces with Garrosh, or appear to have done so at least. Again, nothing special, this is likely part of our timeline.

    The third one... ahhh, here it gets interesting. Knowing just what happens in the end cinematics, the positioning of the groups appears odd. Note that Garrosh is lying on the floor, completely motionless. Note how Taran Zhu blocks us from seeing Garrosh's head... could it be that it was crushed by the Doomhammer? As the camera pans out, we see Kairoz overseeing the whole ordeal. Now for the interesting part: I propose that this was what was meant to have happened. I believe this was originally meant to be part of our timeline. Garrosh was supposed to die. Kairoz seems surprised when he learns that he was supposed to be present at this occasion. But was he surprised at being there... or that the hourglass showed him?

    The fourth vision shows a destroyed Stormwind and the leaders of both the Rebellion and the Alliance stuck on pikes. This is what happens if Garrosh wins the war. When you return to Kairoz, he comforts you and claims he will continue his research into the possible timeways. This is at first glance not part of our timeline... or is it? More on this in the conclusion.

    The fifth vision was the turning point when I began to develop this hypothesis. It shows Anduin visiting an imprisoned orc... and from the NPC ID we know it is meant to be Garrosh. What really surprised me was how Kairoz reacted. He said the prince yet had a part to play... and hinted at this being part of our own timeline. At the same time, he urges the player not to speak of this any more, for fear that they may upset the timeline.

    There is a sixth vision as well, for the sake of not spoiling it for people it won't be discussed in this post. However, it would shed some light on the story and I await the quest turn-in text with considerable anticipation.

    Now, for the conclusion. What I believe may have happened there. The reasons why Kairoz seems to keep a fair deal of info from us.

    Originally, our timeline was to witness the death of Garrosh Hellscream. Let us assume for a moment that he yet has some part to play in the future... and that through his actions, in one way or another, Azeroth is better off than it was (not destroyed perhaps?). Kairoz claims the Timeless Isle is powered by some source not even the Bronze Dragonflight can begin to understand... what if he somehow managed to harness this source and reshape the timeline, poke it and send it spiraling down a different path?

    However, he seems a bit shocked at what this meant for Azeroth. It was a worse future, by all accounts. We know from one of the short stories that a victorious Garrosh would mean a shattered Azeroth that cannot stand against the Burning Legion when it returns. So what does Kairoz do? He pokes the timeline again, hoping for a better result...

    ... and achieving it! Garrosh in this timeline is imprisoned, still alive and, while powerless now, might eventually end up helping after all. Kairoz seems quite satisfied with the result, especially how Anduin is the one to come and speak to the imprisoned orc. What I find intriguing is that while he claims to be an onlooker, he seems oddly secretive and very keen on preserving this particular outcome, going as far as to ask the player to keep their silence regarding what they saw.

    This differs from the Bronze Dragonflight's normal agenda in a big way. If he indeed manipulated the timelines, even if his final goal is a greater good, he has stepped over the line.

    As a final thought, keep in mind that 'Kairos' was a minor Greek deity, one whose domain was not time itself, but those moments when fate can be changed.



  2. #2
    This would imply the timeless isle is a very dangerous place to exist.

    That the power of the epoch stones could untether time from fate, and re-chart the course of fate without ultimately destroying everything.

    We know time is unchangable, there is a true timeline, and all others are doomed tangents, ultimately unraveling.
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  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concequence View Post
    This would imply the timeless isle is a very dangerous place to exist.
    We know this to be the case. Even the Bronze Dragonflight is not really sure how it functions or how it came to be, which is a rather disturbing thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Concequence View Post
    We know time is unchangable, there is a true timeline, and all others are doomed tangents, ultimately unraveling.
    Not necessarily. Many of the timelines in Warcraft do indeed unravel sooner or later, but there are a number that can (and technically do) coexist, and at best we can call them the true timelines for those that inhabit them. What I propose is that we were supposed to be one of the versions where it goes wrong and Azeroth is ultimately desolated, but we were pushed down a much less hopeless path.

    If that is so, we may be seeing the first (as for now altruistic) actions of the Infinite Dragonflight.



  4. #4
    This is fascinating.

    I wonder if and hope Blizzard will go somewhere with it.

  5. #5
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  6. #6
    Hmm, while I already expected Garrosh to be involved in the Burning Legion events. I propose this thought.

    Garrosh ends up saving Andruin. That's it, nothing more heroic then that.

    But that will lead to preserving the army of the light.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Eucep View Post
    Hmm, while I already expected Garrosh to be involved in the Burning Legion events. I propose this thought.

    Garrosh ends up saving Andruin. That's it, nothing more heroic then that.

    But that will lead to preserving the army of the light.
    That's a bit of a long shot, especially considering that Garrosh was so keen on beating Anduin to teach Varian a lesson not to mess with him.
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  8. #8
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Lokann brings up an interesting point--we know that Nozdormu goes mad and forms the Infinite Dragonflight, but Kairoz may not necessarily even be from our timeline where that happens. He seems to have a vested interest in how things turn out--maybe he's from a timeline where events folded like they should have in ours and it ended up desolated--maybe he's from the timeline created before we branched off thanks to his actions, which created a self-sustaining paradox (he went back in time to save Azeroth from a chain reaction originating in the siege of Orgrimmar, causing the timelines to diverge, but the divergent timeline doesn't collapse in on itself because the Timeless Isle's properties allowed him to change history without breaking the timestream).

    Which, again, seems an awful lot like a more altruistic version of the Infinite Dragonflight's modus operandi--alter significant moments of fate so they turn out differently, causing the ensuing chain of events to turn out different. Think the Flashpoint event that was the Post-Crisis DCU's grand finale and the introduction of the New 52 reboot, but instead of a reboot, we went back to the Post-Crisis DCU and things kept on truckin'.

    I'm thinking Kairoz was the Nozdormu of his timeline, operating under an assumed name and more subtle humanoid form, given the origins of his name and Nozdormu's fate as the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight.

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  9. #9
    Legendary! seam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post

    Which, again, seems an awful lot like a more altruistic version of the Infinite Dragonflight's modus operandi--alter significant moments of fate so they turn out differently, causing the ensuing chain of events to turn out different. Think the Flashpoint event that was the Post-Crisis DCU's grand finale and the introduction of the New 52 reboot, but instead of a reboot, we went back to the Post-Crisis DCU and things kept on truckin'.
    .
    Actually, now that you mention it, it sounds EXACTLY like the Infinite Flight...

    Which, if anything, I think strengthens the idea, which is very interesting...to say the least.

    I'm excited to see how this unfolds... especially knowing about the final vision.

    Is...this the start of the Infinite Flight? How different would events be if Garrosh lived...and would it be for the better? Is it WORTH it being for the better?(Like how we helped Arthas...)
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by seam View Post
    Actually, now that you mention it, it sounds EXACTLY like the Infinite Flight...

    Which, if anything, I think strengthens the idea, which is very interesting...to say the least.

    I'm excited to see how this unfolds... especially knowing about the final vision.

    Is...this the start of the Infinite Flight? How different would events be if Garrosh lived...and would it be for the better? Is it WORTH it being for the better?(Like how we helped Arthas...)
    Infinte dragons are black and have lightning-like shapes on their skin. Hasn't the BLACK prince recently got a bit of the THUNDER king's power? Didn't he show quite some interest in Kairoz's words about shaping the timelines?
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Turmoill View Post
    That's a bit of a long shot, especially considering that Garrosh was so keen on beating Anduin to teach Varian a lesson not to mess with him.
    We've moved a long way from there, however.

    Now, I warn you that this is just a personal... I'd like to say theory, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm guessing this is how it will turn out, it's just a way I could see it turning out, that would tie in with this interpretation.

    During the Siege of Orgrimmar, we did not just defeat Garrosh, we left him alive, and both factions walked away without coming to blows. That shatters Garrosh's entire world view. He respects strength, but was convinced strength was massacring everyone that was not loyal to you and never making concessions. However, we showed that when enemies put aside their differences and work together, they can defeat that. Now, in real life, most people would probably fail to admit that they were proven wrong, but while Garrosh has crossed the line and is beyond redemption, that doesn't mean he can't realize that he was wrong. I could imagine Garrosh saving Anduin because the Siege showed that Anduin's way is true strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Which, again, seems an awful lot like a more altruistic version of the Infinite Dragonflight's modus operandi--alter significant moments of fate so they turn out differently, causing the ensuing chain of events to turn out different.
    What's weird is that is kinda already how the Infinite Dragonflight is. I'm honestly not really sure why we're supposed to see them as so villainous. They attempted to stop the Dark Portal from being opened. Okay, that sounds nice in the short term but would leave Azeroth unprepared for a Legion invasion later right? Well, they also tried to kill Arthas before he recovered Frostmourne. If they did that, the Scourge never would have been able to pave the way for the Legion. If they foiled Thrall's escape attempt, he never would have been able to revitalize the Horde, and Garrosh would never have been brought out of his stupor to commit the atrocities he did. I mean, obviously every change to the timeline is going to have good and bad repercussions, which is one reason not to touch it, but I don't see what's so innately villainous about their specific actions. Maybe I'm forgetting something.
    Last edited by Jokubas; 2013-10-13 at 07:20 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    Infinte dragons are black and have lightning-like shapes on their skin. Hasn't the BLACK prince recently got a bit of the THUNDER king's power? Didn't he show quite some interest in Kairoz's words about shaping the timelines?
    Except we know it's the Bronze flight, not the Black, considering their numbers on Azeroth are depleted and Outlands their numbers are not that big either.

    However, keep in mind here, this is a new timeline, the timeline of Moruzond and the Infinite Flight has been erased already by the defeat of Deathwing. If this is Infinite Flight showing up again, it is a new alteration.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Eucep View Post
    Except we know it's the Bronze flight, not the Black, considering their numbers on Azeroth are depleted and Outlands their numbers are not that big either.

    However, keep in mind here, this is a new timeline, the timeline of Moruzond and the Infinite Flight has been erased already by the defeat of Deathwing. If this is Infinite Flight showing up again, it is a new alteration.
    They were originally bronze, but something or someone has changed them. And we don't really know if Murozond started the Infinite Dragonflight or was transformed later on. For all we know, what Kairoz is doing could be the begining of the same Infinite Flight that we've been fighting and that was destroyed in Cataclysm. Just because we've already seen the end of it, it doesn't mean we have seen all of it.

    They were born in the future to alter the past and we killed them recently. Now I've got a headache...
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  14. #14
    Pandaren Monk Alundra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eucep View Post
    Except we know it's the Bronze flight, not the Black, considering their numbers on Azeroth are depleted and Outlands their numbers are not that big either.

    However, keep in mind here, this is a new timeline, the timeline of Moruzond and the Infinite Flight has been erased already by the defeat of Deathwing. If this is Infinite Flight showing up again, it is a new alteration.
    Erased but not avoided, Nozdormu already warned us upon defeating Moruzond that he is always destined to become corrupted and become the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight. We may be seeing the roots of the birth of the Infinite within our own present timeline.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazroshka View Post
    Erased but not avoided, Nozdormu already warned us upon defeating Moruzond that he is always destined to become corrupted and become the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight. We may be seeing the roots of the birth of the Infinite within our own present timeline.
    Yeah. My guess is that he'll end up going mad and being empowered by an old god to get some of his time powers back or something and become Murozond.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Yeah. My guess is that he'll end up going mad and being empowered by an old god to get some of his time powers back or something and become Murozond.
    You know, that could be exactly it. Whatever happens by the end of the Timeless Isle arc causes Nozdormu to feel so powerless that he goes to some dark power out of desperation to make himself useful again.

  17. #17
    Pandaren Monk Martyn 470's Avatar
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    I speculated this in guild a while ago, we know old gods are powerful enough to rip holes in time and space, because they managed to send Broxigar, Korialstrasz and Rhonin back in time, so I get the feeling that whichever old god was behind it, will bestow an alternate timeline Nozdormu into becoming Murozond, and our timeline Nozdormu just thinks that he's going to be Murozond, and they'll leave it at that, they won't kill off Nozdormu or turn him into Murozond, they'll just use the Alternate timeline Nozdormu.

    Back in end time, that scenario was if we failed to stop Deathwing and he decimated everything, so the Nozdormu / Murozond in that timeline still has his full potential Strength and didn't expend it in trying to stop Deathwing, which means he has the power to create the Infinite Dragonflight in our timeline by corrupting the Bronze Dragons.

  18. #18
    I don't know, Nozdormu seemed convinced he will still become Murozond. We assumed we averted that when the Aspects lost their power, but think of it this way. Nozdormu was not born with these powers to begin with. Who's to say he cannot have similar powers granted once more? The Bronze Dragons are concerned that if something were to attempt to muck with time, there's nothing they can do about it. If something really nasty were to happen, I could imagine Nozdormu turning a bit Malygos on us and deciding that he must go to any lengths to make sure he has control once more.
    Last edited by Jokubas; 2013-10-13 at 09:36 PM.

  19. #19
    Pandaren Monk Martyn 470's Avatar
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    Problem is, it's pretty impossible for them to be re-granted there powers, it took a Titan to bestow what they had in them, and the Titans are the strongest characters in the universe, I know a few mortal heroes were sent back in time, but thats only ever happened once and it must have taken a great deal of power to do so, I personally can't see Nozdormu regaining his powers any time soon, I can only see the situation I said above, where End time Murozond crosses into our Timeline and starts causing a shitstorm by converting broze dragons into Infinite Dragons, I honestly think that the End time Nozdormu got corrupted into becoming Murozond because of the grief of his failure to stop Deathwing, similar to how Malygos went down the dark path.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Martyn 470 View Post
    Problem is, it's pretty impossible for them to be re-granted there powers, it took a Titan to bestow what they had in them, and the Titans are the strongest characters in the universe
    You're forgetting the Old Gods.

    1) In the War of the Ancients book it's implied that the Old Gods would make Sargeras beg for mercy so individually they are probably even stronger than the Titans.
    2) Look what the Old Gods did to Deathwing, they buffed him up to the same power as the Dragon Soul. And that's insane, the Dragon Soul was feared even by the Burning Legion.

    So I guess the Old Gods could grant Nozdormu new powers.

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