Columbus day ?

[Noomz]

Well, I had never heard of this day before, so you can guess I'm not from US (but from Europe).

Even in school I've never been taught he was any kind of hero or even someone "good". Lessons could be summed up as : he "discovered" the new world (insert vikings stories here), then what he did was basically enslaving and mass killing people (sometimes "accidentally" with diseases they brought), and had extremely brutal ways to deal with the "savages" he found he could exploit for gold and other riches.

And now I learn that some countries have a national holiday in his honor ? With Spain even using this date as Fiesta Nacional ? I'm really confused here.

And yes, I learned it from http://www.theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day, but no, I never use theoatmeal as a "real" source of information, he really uses way too much unverified/biased information (don't take anything you read on this as fact)... but what's more than sure is that there is enough information on Columbus to know he was definitely not someone any country should worship.

"Fun" thing is that in the US, you also have a national holiday celebrating the end of civil war, which resulted in the abolition of slavery, while on Columbus day you're basically worshiping the pioneer of mass slavery between your country and Europe. This feels crazy.

It's all based on lies and misconceptions. Much like Thanksgiving.
Yes, it's very wrong to celebrate Columbus.

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I never said they weren't. Native Americans were being sterilized until the 1970s by the US Government. Europe has still killed far more people, enslaved far more people, and brutalized far more people. I just pointed out that it started with Europeans. For a European to complain about how Americans treated natives is beyond laughable.

The difference being that Europe is AN ENTIRE CONTINENT and most countries in it has existed for SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS longer. Way to compare an entire continent to 1 country.

[Cybran]

For a European to complain about how Americans treated natives is beyond laughable.

The problem is that you think all Europeans did that. Only a handful countries were involved in the brutalization of Africa, Asia and the Americas. Plenty of Europeans can judge you all they want.

[Notchris]

The problem is that you think all Europeans did that. Only a handful countries were involved in the brutalization of Africa, Asia and the Americas. Plenty of Europeans can judge you all they want.

Of course they can.

They're also free to shove it up their collective asses.

How many of those "innocent" countries were innocent for any other reason then they weren't a big enough power to participate in the raping, pillaging, and colonization of those lands?

[Cybran]

How many of those "innocent" countries were innocent for any other reason then they weren't a big enough power to participate in the raping, pillaging, and colonization of those lands?

So now you don't have to commit a crime to be judged?

[Notchris]

So now you don't have to commit a crime to be judged?

No.

I was just pointing out that most of those countries are innocent only due to their being unable to join in the exploitation, had they had the means they'd have been there right along with the others.
Your post just came off as if they had all willingly took the moral highroad.

Regardless of their circumstances though, I still don't care how they judge us.

[Pendulous]

Multiple relevance in this: http://www.cracked.com/article_19864...g-america.html

In short:

90% of the Native Americans died to a massive plague before Europeans started taking over
Vikings settled in Greenland for over 500 years, and made expeditions down the current U.S. eastern coast, long before Columbus showed up
Columbus was kind of a dick, and the trip was easy and he knew the damn continent was there

So yeah. It's a pointless "holiday". More so than any other "holiday". Nothing to celebrate. Another reason to give people a day off I guess.

[Deleted]

Multiple relevance in this: http://www.cracked.com/article_19864...g-america.html

In short:

90% of the Native Americans died to a massive plague before Europeans started taking over
Vikings settled in Greenland for over 500 years, and made expeditions down the current U.S. eastern coast, long before Columbus showed up
Columbus was kind of a dick, and the trip was easy and he knew the damn continent was there

So yeah. It's a pointless "holiday". More so than any other "holiday". Nothing to celebrate. Another reason to give people a day off I guess.

The trip was... easy?

[Flutterguy]

Multiple relevance in this: http://www.cracked.com/article_19864...g-america.html

In short:

90% of the Native Americans died to a massive plague before Europeans started taking over
Vikings settled in Greenland for over 500 years, and made expeditions down the current U.S. eastern coast, long before Columbus showed up
Columbus was kind of a dick, and the trip was easy and he knew the damn continent was there

So yeah. It's a pointless "holiday". More so than any other "holiday". Nothing to celebrate. Another reason to give people a day off I guess.

They should have had better immune systems.

[imabanana]

Ah Columbus day. When is it? Today of course! Do you guys know how I knew that? There are exactly two ways people remember the date of this holiday. 1, they try to go someplace that is closed because of the holiday. Shit I guess today is a holiday or something. 2, They are told on thursday or Friday that they don't have to work on monday. Sweet! I guess Monday is some holiday or some shit.

There is nothing else. Ok, maybe 50 people in the country give a shit about it being Columbus Day for the sake of it being Columbus Day.

In fact I kind of think this makes things even worse. If people don't give a shit about it, why keep such a controversial day as holiday ? There are so many better things/people/facts worth celebrating.

I was never really talking about what people think of it in this thread, and I don't really care (this "people have no idea what holiday this is" must apply to most population/holiday anywhere in the world I think). What's bothering me is the fact that some governments keeps this a holiday.

No he didn't.
He didn't discover anything.

From a European point of view, he did.

dis·cov·er (d-skvr)
2. a. To be the first, or the first of one's group or kind, to find, learn of, or observe.

Spain / Europe had no real idea of America existence at this time, he was the first of this group to learn of and observe it (and come back alive then go again multiple times). He discovered it from a European point of view.

Multiple relevance in this: http://www.cracked.com/article_19864...g-america.html

I think most of "The Truth" parts should be rewritten "The other theories". Many of these are still very controversial among historians. I remember having talked about most of these subjects in history class many years ago.

[Flutterguy]

In fact I kind of think this makes things even worse. If people don't give a shit about it, why keep such a controversial day as holiday ? There are so many better things/people/facts worth celebrating.

I was never really talking about what people think of it in this thread, and I don't really care (this "people have no idea what holiday this is" must apply to most population/holiday anywhere in the world I think). What's bothering me is the fact that some governments keeps this a holiday.



From a European point of view, he did.

dis·cov·er (d-skvr)
2. a. To be the first, or the first of one's group or kind, to find, learn of, or observe.

Spain / Europe had no real idea of America existence at this time, he was the first of this group to learn of and observe it (and come back alive then go again multiple times). He discovered it from a European point of view.



I think most of "The Truth" parts should be rewritten "The other theories". Many of these are still very controversial among historians. I remember having talked about most of these subjects in history class many years ago.

Anecdotal evidence becomes a source when there isn't something more solid. However, it leads to controversy because it is ultimately unreliable.

[Kalis]

The problem is that you think all Europeans did that. Only a handful countries were involved in the brutalization of Africa, Asia and the Americas. Plenty of Europeans can judge you all they want.

That's somewhat disingenuous.

A lot of the countries you claim can judge were involved in plenty of brutal acts, just not in Africa, Asia, or the Americas, as by the time European power had a global reach their own power had waned.

Take your own nation, Bulgaria, which was involved in plenty of attrocities and aggresive empire expansion between 700AD and 1400AD - burying the residents of Varna alive being one of their more notable acts of savagery. Even into modern times they willingly sided with Nazi Germany, in the hopes to exploit Greece and Yugoslavia by hanging onto the coattails of the Wehrmacht.

[ItachiZaku]

The guy planted the seed that is modern day America. The holiday is a tip of the hat to that event. What is wrong with that?

Everything.