1. #1

    13,163 or Mastery build: 25 man raid

    Hi guys, currently I'm rolling the 13k breakpoint and am curious to as whether I am losing out on output by not going with the mastery build.

    I'm losing lots of spirit/socket bonuses to hit this 13k breakpoint, We have another druid in the raid group that has a great item specialization with great stats to allow him to stay at 14,500 spirit, is it better to have 1 mastery build druid and 1 haste build druid? or two 13k haste breakpoint druids?

    Thanks!

    It wont let me link my armory, if its not too much work here are the character names.

    Us-illidan, George <-- me


    Us illidan, Xuez <-- fellow druid

  2. #2
    It depends on: Other healers & Role you do. If you are using more HoTs (raid healing) then haste means more than mastery, if you are using more direct heals (tank healing) then mastery should be stronger...

  3. #3
    Our comp is currently 2 Rdruids, 1 shaman, 1 disc priest, 1 pally.

  4. #4
    George I think you're giving up too much to reach the haste breakpoint and would be better off either waiting for a few more haste pieces or prismatic prison of pride. Whereas Xuez is fine with reaching the 13k HBP due to better itemization. (You have fewer haste pieces to make it work)

    On a side note, I would recommend swapping back to H T15 helm in order to retain the 2 piece T15 vs 3 pc T16 until you can get your 4th piece due to the amount of healing Efflo does for you in a H 25 guild.

    If you do wish to stay with the 13k HBP, I would recommend the haste enchant and reforging Should spirit -> Haste, this will give you the flexibility of socketing the boots and cloak for an additional 60 int, 60 spi.

    Regarding the preference of 2 13k HBP druids, it would tend to your play style and the play style of those in your group. Although other classes can be stronger at tank healing, do they tank heal? If not, you will then have to ask yourself if you want faster LB (which leads to more OoC for RG) or stronger LB ticks. (If you are forced into tank healing I would recommend the mastery with your current setup, no significant HPS difference between 13k and 3k with enough gear just depends on the difficulty / ease of gaining / losing haste.)

    - Sephinia @ Illian

  5. #5
    I feel like I should make a new thread for this but I guess it relates to this post. Going from T15 4 set to T16 4 set is NOT a throughput gain unless the t16 4 set does 100% effective healing while the 2 set increases your Healing Touch to over 6.5% of your overall healing done. t15 4 set is vauled at ~4% t15 2 set is valued at ~5% of our overall healing. Breaking those set bonuses for anything but t16 4 set(while still a loss) is going to be a drastic loss in potential throughput. If you care to put in the 15 or so minutes to set yourself up with my spreadsheet ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ISGJabVE#gid=0 ) it can show you if an item/breakpoint/stat distributions are actually an increase in throughput. The only thing it doesn't calculate is the very minor reduced gcd from haste and the t16 2 set (you would have to use your own numbers for the t15 set).

    On a more related note: I would never use anything but the 3k haste bp while stacking mastery for progression. Tranq heals for ~9% more on average while using the 3k bp compared to the 13k. While the 13k does provide ~1.5% better throughput overall the build lacks the only place it actually matters. During progression raid cd's are basically everything.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by vow1152 View Post
    I feel like I should make a new thread for this but I guess it relates to this post. Going from T15 4 set to T16 4 set is NOT a throughput gain unless the t16 4 set does 100% effective healing while the 2 set increases your Healing Touch to over 6.5% of your overall healing done. t15 4 set is vauled at ~4% t15 2 set is valued at ~5% of our overall healing. Breaking those set bonuses for anything but t16 4 set(while still a loss) is going to be a drastic loss in potential throughput. If you care to put in the 15 or so minutes to set yourself up with my spreadsheet ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ISGJabVE#gid=0 ) it can show you if an item/breakpoint/stat distributions are actually an increase in throughput. The only thing it doesn't calculate is the very minor reduced gcd from haste and the t16 2 set (you would have to use your own numbers for the t15 set).

    On a more related note: I would never use anything but the 3k haste bp while stacking mastery for progression. Tranq heals for ~9% more on average while using the 3k bp compared to the 13k. While the 13k does provide ~1.5% better throughput overall the build lacks the only place it actually matters. During progression raid cd's are basically everything.
    The stat gain from T15 (522) to T16(553) alone will give you 8% throughtput(4 pieces).
    Not to mention that the HP increase is very valuable for progression.

  7. #7
    I have run the numbers many times and the stat gain and minimal set bonus gain is no where near the value of t15 shoulders/gloves/chest/pants. You have to remember that the T15 set bonuses increase in value with the higher ilvl off pieces you have.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by vow1152 View Post
    I have run the numbers many times and the stat gain and minimal set bonus gain is no where near the value of t15 shoulders/gloves/chest/pants. You have to remember that the T15 set bonuses increase in value with the higher ilvl off pieces you have.
    Very much so with both t16 bonuses, HT scaling with more than 100% of spellpower, with its positive linear scale, and the 25% of spellpower as instant heal.

    The two things t16 provides that CAN NOT be underestimated, is that they are both almost guaranteed to have full effect. While t15 efflorescence hitting a 4th target is only a "guaranteed" in 25man, and increasing ticks on rejuv can theoretically be wasted if someone else snipes your heals, they both provide a ton of "theoretical gain" if they are used to their full, but most of the math that sings the song of t15 depends on 100% effect from both bonuses.

    I think you should go t16 4p as soon as possible. Subjective at best, but as I said, the math behind t15 4p makes assumptions that are unrealistic at best in some scenarios (10v25).


    On the matter of "can I really go THIS low on spirit to reach 13,163???", reforge away spirit into mastery in your current build until you reach the point you will if you were to go haste today, and have a feel of it. If you know you'll have to drop down to 12,5k spirit for the 13,163 HBP to be reachable, then do that low while still in mastery build (should be possible with reforges). That way you can more easily try it out, with only the cost of having reforged back and forth once, which is like 200g each way. Cheapest way of finding out if you can cope with that low spirit.

    Theres no "right" amount of spirit. Its subjective. We cant answer it for you. We can give you answers on how you help find out how much is okay.
    ^ I agree with this.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by vow1152 View Post
    I have run the numbers many times and the stat gain and minimal set bonus gain is no where near the value of t15 shoulders/gloves/chest/pants. You have to remember that the T15 set bonuses increase in value with the higher ilvl off pieces you have.
    The stat gain of T16 provides 8% more throughput and the set bonus provide some.
    It's stronger unless the two set bonuses provide less than 3% healing the T16 set is already better in terms of throughput.
    And you second point doesn't really matter. All the set bonus (T15/T16) scales with gear. They are still some percentage increase in throughput.

    And you really can't compare direct heal and hot like efflorescence with just HPS because the direct heals heal less but their heal is more useful.
    You know that by replacing every HT/RG casts with rejuv you will gain HPS. So why would you ever cast HT/RG? You would lose HPS!
    Because sometimes you just need fast strong heal to save lives.
    Even though the T16X12 doesn't provide a HPS gain(Actually it's a lost as a rejuv heals more and takes less time to cast) it's still very useful.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Georgethedrood View Post
    Hi guys, currently I'm rolling the 13k breakpoint and am curious to as whether I am losing out on output by not going with the mastery build.

    I'm losing lots of spirit/socket bonuses to hit this 13k breakpoint, We have another druid in the raid group that has a great item specialization with great stats to allow him to stay at 14,500 spirit, is it better to have 1 mastery build druid and 1 haste build druid? or two 13k haste breakpoint druids?

    Thanks!

    It wont let me link my armory, if its not too much work here are the character names.

    Us-illidan, George <-- me


    Us illidan, Xuez <-- fellow druid

    Back on topic...

    Our 25man raid runs with 2 druids (me being one of them). the other had already been experimenting with the higher haste BP before the last patch so when we started getting new gear we stuck to he gets the haste gear, I get the mastery and so far its worked out pretty well. It certainly makes handing out loot easier as we are rarely fighting over an item.
    Its getting more difficult to reforge to an acceptable haste rating for me now and I'm sure I will eventually have to go to 13k regardless of me wanting too or now but for the time being we flip flop as to who is top on a fight by fight basis, some suit haste, some not. Go with which ever you prefer, there's not much difference.

  11. #11
    Personally really enjoy Haste build for 25m throughput. Seems really worth it so far.

  12. #12
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bzl View Post
    VI think you should go t16 4p as soon as possible.
    I would say to hang on to your 4T15, especially if you're going for 13k haste. There's little point in reforging all your gear to get another tick on one spell and then replacing the items that make that spell heal for much more. Since the haste cap and the set bonus stack so well, you either want both or neither.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  13. #13
    Blademaster Tyriama's Avatar
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    On my offset I recently went back to a mastery build, getting some extra spirit on the way. The main resto in my guild is a pure haste, still rocking the 4pct15 for some awesome meterpadding. That one or two progressfights I need to pop into resto is more because the healing needs to be smoothed out a bit, and extra spirit helps for me. Follow the advice above, and you should be fine. (In general, as long as noone is dying because of healing being lackluster, nothing needs to "change".
    Don't break what isn't broken.

  14. #14
    I believe the saying is don't fix what isn't broken haha, but all of that aside they are all mostly right. While it is good to optimize, losing a night or 2 on progression because you're trying out a new setup is never fun. I would stick with what is tried and tested.

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