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  1. #61
    For me, the holypriest is ideally:
    - Flexible. Large arsenal, a spell fitting every situation
    - Strong. No heal feels weak.
    - Mana intensive. A holypriest can always spamcast large heals, and do silly high HPS... for about 20 seconds. Then oom.

    Our spec strength is that we can go crazy with healing. It allows us to pull off stuff like Jhazrun did in Garrosh 10H. We don't need any overdrive button, we have one by default: Spam harder. This is also the spec weakness, because no other spec will burn though mana as fast as a holypriest. However, if we hold back a little, that's not a major problem. It can be, if even our affordable spells cost an eyeball, but that was mostly a Cata issue. Mastering the management of mana is by far the holypriest's greatest skillcheck. Related, I suck at it.

    To get the most out of our mana, it is important to spend it right. This is where the spell selection comes in. At any point in time, there are 15 different heals I can cast. Which spell allows me to maximize healing versus risk, overhealing and mana consumption in a given situation? Making those decisions on the fly is what makes the holypriest incredibly interesting and fun to play. When you do it right, you feel very rewarded. When you do it wrong, things start to die because you ran OOM having to catch up more.

    But strength should never been the issue of a holypriest. All spells should feel strong. It's all down to how you use them. Another reason to hate Heal to death.

    For me, the holypriest is currently highly inflexible. Most of this is basically ruined by chakra. Half my toolkit is wrong to use. Half my toolkit is weaksauce.
    Last edited by Danner; 2013-10-22 at 01:37 PM.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  2. #62
    Honestly i want chakra "stances" removed, completely erased.

    Every healer spec can do their maximum AoE and Single Target healing potential without using any gimmicky stances that have nasty cooldowns.

    I see ZERO reason for these stances to exist - especially since they are not a BONUS, they just allow Holy to perform as good as other specs WHILE keeping the other method of healing at very sub power.

  3. #63
    Fluffy Kitten Dyra's Avatar
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    Holy cow I actually made a post about this a few days ago in PvM. I was complaining about having to tank heal at the time, and probably half of it is wrong. I main Shadow now, but I was Holy for years before that, and was it was my main spec when Chakra was introduced.

    Since lazy...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyra View Post
    It still is on a 30 second CD. Just the effects of the Chakra are permanent until you manually change Chakra.

    I love Holy and all it entails, but my major issue with it is that the Chakra only really brings you into line with the other healer's aoe/single target output (well.. OK maybe not Disc Priests, but they're a whole other ball game). Which means while you have half of your healing kit optimised, the rest of it is going to be below what others can output. So while everyone else can put out the same healing no matter how often they switch between aoe and single target, a Holy priest simply can't.

    I always thought the difficulty behind Holy Priest was in mastering the exceptionally large toolkit (right spell for the right job) and mastering your mana (Holy Priests are a drain for the blue stuff. More so than for any other healer spec). And the return benefit once you'd mastered that was the ability to output some astonishingly high burst healing at the cost of your blue bar. Now it just feels that with Chakra you have to pray to the gods of RNG that your tank won't get spiked while you're in sanctuary Chakra for example. It just feels so.... throttled now.

    What it should be is an empowering CD. I feel it's what Holy is lacking a little. We have one major through-put CD in Divine Hymn, and then a second (situational since it will only attempt to heal sub... 50% I think it is. Might be lower i.e. in the 30% range) in Lightspring. Though we can glyph it to the original Lightwell, but then you have the fun and games of getting your damn raid to click the bloody thing. And then there's Guardian Spirit... Handy if the fucking thing doesn't bug out. It can be used as a throughput CD, but really that's only possible when you get to farm content since it is the epitome of 'oh shit' cooldowns. Otherwise there's Divine Spirit that allows you to heal once you're dead, but tbh if you're playing properly, you should never die unless you're about to wipe.

    So, make the holy words baseline (yay more spells! ) and then make Chakra a 3-5 minute CD that boosts the entire toolkit by 30%, but spells are 30% more expensive or something. Or hell, have it reverted back to it being a stance dance ability again (i.e. as it is now, but without the 30 second CD). Or combine the two to make it a stance dance where when you are in Chakra, you have a boost to all your spells but with the additional mana cost so you have a boost when you need it (and thus you can use it on the move... stupid channeled divine hymn/hymn of hope), but it is unsustainable for long periods of time.
    OK take out the part where you make spells more mana expensive if Chakra is a 2-5 min CD. That would be silly. :3

    A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.

  4. #64
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Wouldnt mind if you help me direct GC over here to get all this awsome feedback on twitter.

  5. #65
    It used to be so that if you cast the right spells, you'd have plenty of mana to use. These days the idea behind mana management is to not only to cast the right spell, but to occasionally sit and wait until you regen your mana, doing absolutely nothing because you _cant_ cast anything or you risk going oom. Heal is always too slow no matter what and flash heal isnt really feasible with its mana usage.

  6. #66
    On the topic, since I'm too lazy to go home from work.

    What Chakra once was trying to do

    Chakra in a nutshell is all about the spell. The buff was an afterthought, really, and one that is seriously dominating the ability right now. But the original idea was a spell that changed its behaviour based on circumstances. Cast PoH 3x in a row, and you got HW:Sanctuary. Cast FHeal 3x in a row, and you got HW:Serenity. Smite 3x in a row, and you got HW:Chastise, which was also the default ability.

    The obvious downside to this idea back in the days was that holypriests were really flexible casters. We never ever cast the same spell 3x in a row. Maybe except smite, when farming. Taking advantage of this mutating ability was really tricky, since we never met the conditions to do so. So the 3x became 2x, then 1x. And then it turned into a stance. Which got an ever increasing number of bonuses on it, since that was how Blizzard tuned Holy vs Disc.

    Where Chakra isn't meeting the expectations

    I really want the buff giving +healing boosts gone. Seriously. It only limits our options, and it is a bad idea to lock a healer down to half their arsenal. Kill it with fire. I dislike how weak HW:Sanctuary is, but I don't see how it can be buffed without every other spell being nerfed. Bottom line; I don't think this spell works.
    I really dislike how HW:Chastise is a dps loss compared to smite. It's currently only useful as an interrupt to which every important mob is immune. I don't think this spell works outside PVP. I really love HW:Serenity. It's an excellent spell, though it's essentially just holy shock with a new name. Some copyright issues there.

    But the mutable spell idea may have some merit. And that is the core of Chakra. While the ability at this point has earned enough ire to be killed on that tangent alone, let's see what we can do with it. None of this are particularly awesome ideas. But it's something to discuss at least. That's what GC wanted, right?

    Alternative option


    The obvious problem with the original chakra was that you didn't cast heals to unlock other heals. You cast heals to ... you know. Heal people.
    Any approach that requires archaic ability combos has issues. Holy cannot afford to waste 3xPoH on minor damage just gain the right to cast efflorescence. So I do not believe in abilities that force you to cast specific heals to unlock.

    Instead... how about something that rewards the priest for flexible spell selection? Whenever you cast a spell in a way that isn't one of the last three you cast, you get one chakra point (CP).
    Chakra Points are used to cast Chakra spells. Serenity costs 2 CP. Chastise costs 3 CP. Sanctuary costs 6 CP. You're basically bound to have a bunch of CP about if you don't spam the same two spells over and over. You could probably even get rid of the HW cooldowns. Downside is of course that you still need multiple spell hotkeys, it's not really a mutable spell.

    Another alternative option

    The action button gives another approach, by offering a context-sensitive ability.
    The Chakra spell too could always be based on situational need. For example, the number of people in your party / raid that need healing. Or the amount of mana in your pockets? your current orientation. The distance between yourself and your target. Whether or not you stand in bad stuff. Amount of outstanding chakra points from the previous idea. Current armor stance. Number of charges in your lightwell. The ternary root of the percentile HP of your current group. None of these seem to me like they are .. useful selectors though. Ultimately, priests like to be in control. Having a spell that just changes a lot based on unpredictable stuff goes against that.

    But how about making chakra do increasingly good effects based on how much you worked on the target?
    You cast Chakra on an offensive target -> disorient
    You cast Chakra on an offensive target that is affected by one of your effects -> damage + disorient
    You cast Chakra on an offensive target that is affected by two of your effects -> cast swp + damage + disorient
    You cast Chakra on an offensive target that is affected by three of your effects -> cast swp + damage + disorient + baby thrall descends from the heavens and grants you the iwin-button
    You cast Chakra on a friendly target -> instant healing
    You cast Chakra on a friendly target under the influence of one of your effects -> instant healing + cast renew
    You cast Chakra on a friendly target under the influence of two of your effects -> instant healing + cast renew + sanctuary effect
    You cast Chakra on a friendly target under the influence of three of your effects -> instant healing + cast renew + sanctuary effect + also heal nearby target
    ect. Apply balance as needed.
    Yeah, maybe the latter is a little too much smelling of druid effloscerence. But you get the idea. Build up something, then make it pay off by casting chakra on it. Even if you just cast chakra on a clean target, you get something. The more you prepare for it by adding more effects (like renew, swp, echoes, pws, etc), the better it is. This works as a mutable spell in my book.

    Ending remark

    Closing up, I strongly dislike the name Chakra. Disc was always the eastern inspired priest. Holy was the western inspired priest. (Shadow is the lovecraft-inspired priest). Putting Chakra into Holy, is kinda like giving rogues a Berserk ability, or giving mages an ability to Backstab. It just doesn't fit!
    Last edited by Danner; 2013-10-22 at 05:36 PM. Reason: formatting
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  7. #67
    I always enjoyed the "chakra-twisting" concept, and some fights seemed designed to reward that type of play style. I enjoyed micromanaging my stance. That said, with as flexible as other healers have become, and as expensive as AoE spells are there's no place for chakra in its current form.

    I always thought chakra should be fun and reward good decision making. In this line of thinking, I always seem to come back to our Mastery. I think that chakra should change our Mastery. Normalize the mana costs and the power of the spells; those things aren't fun and they're limiting. Changing our Mastery rewards decision making, and rewards you for dedication to your play-style. Even if you don't enjoy "chakra-twisting" choosing your favorite stance and sticking with it doesn't hurt you. Tying chakra to our Mastery has its own issues, like adjusting what level chakra and its associated skills are learned, but it's a unique effect that actually would warrant stances. The biggest danger is overvaluing Mastery as a stat, but if you take a look at my "for-instance" below, I think my suggestions scale with all of the secondary stats.

    Chakra: Sanctuary
    Reduces the cooldown of your Circle of Healing by 2 sec, transforms your Holy Word spell into Holy Word: Sanctuary, and transforms your Mastery: Echos of Light back into Mastery: Echos of Light (Sanctuary).

    Holy Word: Sanctuary
    Blesses the ground with Divine light, healing all within it for X every 2 sec for 30 sec. Only one Sanctuary can be active at any one time. 40 sec cooldown.

    Mastery: Echos of Light (Sanctuary)
    Your direct healing spells heal for an additional 10% (scaling with Mastery) over 6 sec.
    My Chakra: Sanctuary would have us with the same Mastery that we have currently; a reliable heal of time. Holy Word: Sanctuary is unchanged. Note the "back into" syntax for the Mastery transformation indicating that this form of the Mastery is the default one, just as Holy Word: Chastise is the default form of that ability.
    Bear with me...

    Chakra: Serenity
    Causes your single-target heals refresh the duration of your Renew on the target, transforms your Holy Word spell into Holy Word: Serenity, and transforms your Mastery: Echos of Light into Mastery: Echos of Light (Serenity).

    Holy Word: Serenity
    Instantly heals the target for X, and increases the critical effect chance of your healing spells on the target by 25% for 6 sec. 15 sec cooldown.

    Mastery: Echos of Light (Serenity)
    Your heals have a X% chance to instantly cause additional healing equal to Y% (scaling with mastery) of the original heal.
    In Serenity, the Mastery changes to be more beneficial to dedicated tank and spot healing. This particular effect is stolen from a trinket, but it accomplishes what I think needs to be done here. Note here that there is a chance for the additional healing, so while the chance of it occurring is more likely while aoe healing, its usefulness in that situation because it is unreliable is less so. Whereas, when dedicated to a tank, you're effectively guaranteed to have it proc over an extended period.

    Chakra: Chastise
    Increases the damage done by your Shadow and Holy spells by X, grants a 10% chance for Smite to reset the cooldown of Holy Word: Chastise, reduces the cost of Smite and Holy Fire by Y, transforms your Holy Word spell back into Holy Word: Chastise, and transforms your Mastery: Echos of Light into Mastery: Echos of Light (Chastise).

    Holy Word: Chastise
    Chastise the target for X Holy damage, and disorients them for 3 sec. 30 sec cooldown.

    Mastery: Echos of Light (Chastise)
    When you deal damage with Smite, Holy Fire, and Penance, you instantly heal a nearby low health friendly target for X% (scaling with mastery) of the damage dealt.
    If the Priest is healed through Echos of Light (Chastise), the effect is reduced by Y%.
    Another stolen effect, but darn it, Holy should be able to Smite-heal too. The big difference here from Atonement, is that the amount of healing done is limited by Mastery, and should be scaled in such a way that Atonement still leads the way in damage-to-heals abilities.

    The key here is that the changes are situationally good, not inherently limiting, and cause a elective and personal play-style adjustment, rather than a forced play-style and subset of utility dictated by what is most efficient.
    Last edited by Sahjar; 2013-10-23 at 05:02 PM.

  8. #68
    Bear in mind that overly complicated mechanics tend to be problematic to implement balance, so they don't have a prayer. The main problem is that chakra was not designed as a stance, i.e. constant chakra swapping is not what the devs envisioned. That is why you have that 30s CD.

    If blizzard rolls the 25% healing buff to all spells regardless of chakra, that will pretty much solve everything. That means you can choose based on the mechanics. Do you want healing rain and less CD on CoH or do you want druid style HoT rolling.

    Currently the dichotomy in the healing styles is insurmountable. Either you go heavy mastery and mostly ignore renew or you go haste and roll renews. There is no real in between, which is a shame because it feels like you have to choose a part of your arsenal to just ignore.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-10-24 at 12:49 AM.

  9. #69
    Just remove it. Its just a stance. For some reason Blizzard doesn't want every class to be the same yet on the same account they give every class a pet and give holy a stance bar without the bar.

    Instead give the holy priest Holy Word: Serenity, Holy Word: Sanctuary, and Holy Word: Chastise. Using any of these spells puts the other one on CD till the CD is gone, and make Chastise apply a debuff to the non player target which makes it Holy Fire and Smite do more damage to it. You keep the choice between single target, AoE, and damage but remove the punishing component.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    What I find funny is disc priests were scared about the nerfs in 5.2, and were afraid they'd have to respec Holy. They ended up being the kings of ToT, just like in 5.1, regardless of nerfs. Just pre 5.4, where more nerfs came (Rapture, SS), again the same disc priests were scared,a nd again they ended up vastly superior and far more represented in HC progression than holy. The Garrosh HC proves that in optimal conditions, Holy is a beast, perhaps more than any other healer, but on normal conditions, it doesn't cut it.
    Holy is very competitive in HPS compared to discipline, especially in 25 man. It is the preferred spec for 25m for various fights.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  10. #70
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Holy is very competitive in HPS compared to discipline, especially in 25 man. It is the preferred spec for 25m for various fights.
    When players throw these statements around, I get very curious. Tell me more? What fights and why? I cant see any fight where Holy is straight out better than Disc unless they are for Klaxxi or Garrosh hc.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    When players throw these statements around, I get very curious. Tell me more? What fights and why? I cant see any fight where Holy is straight out better than Disc unless they are for Klaxxi or Garrosh hc.
    Depends on your composition and I haven't done them all on Heroic yet (we're on Thok) the 4set is amazing for holy, putting it miles ahead in terms of raw HPS. Bubble and Divine Hymn both have their utility, but Divine Hymn does straight out more (raid) HPS. Naturally, holy is going to be better on any fight where the spike damage isn't a large issue.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaigr View Post
    Nobody thinks that the mastery needs a complete overhaul? Mastery barely affecting the number 1 healing spell in 10 man is not really a great thing.
    Mastery not being good for a ten man holy priest is a direct result of Chakra screwing over ten man raid holy priests. In a ten man,you can't have a healer who ignores single target healing (or is gimped in single target healing) to excel at aoe healing. Therefore, ten man holy priests sit in serenity all the time and aoe heal via renew and level 90 talents (especially cascade to refresh the renews) with some glyphed binding heal action to help with renew refresh.

    If ten man holy priests were not required to stay in serenity to help heal the tank or other targets that need single target healing (and be able to do so effectively), then holy priests would be able to use prayer of healing to respond to aoe damage making mastery a much more valuable stat.

  13. #73
    I like it as is, just lower the cd or simply remove the cd. Being stuck in the wrong stance is just annoying making me generally stick in AoE stance. Less than 10sec cd and then I would use both regularly.

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