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  1. #21
    It would really help make Holy Paladin as easy as the other healing specs to learn from scratch if it didn't have over 20 different buttons to know about just to do the same amount of healing as a Shaman or a Mistweaver. There isn't a spec in the game with as much button bloat as Holy Paladin.
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  2. #22
    Bloodsail Admiral Hextor's Avatar
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    Judgement hitting real hard! More weapon damage % in TV.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Reversal to preCata design. If people want to play some class with combo points, there is a whole class already existing for that in all 3 specs.

    And as such:
    1. Holy spec - less emphasis on AoE healing. Fast cheap heals, long expensive heals. Strong single-target healing. Efficiency. That's what was defining paladin out of other healers. No procs, which are just far beyond stupid. Proc of faster AoE heal from single-target heal? Adds nothing but excuse to meter padders.

    2. Prot spec - away with vengeance. No stupid GC procs. Procs are awful design. Especially GC, which likes to proc 1 second before actual cd is ready.

    3. Ret spec - remove inquisition, slice and dice is a rogue's perk. Divine Storm no longer shares cd with anything and has healing portion returned.

    Also Consecration being prot-only is a huge mistake. It was one of class-defining moves, and as such should be baseline and available from low levels (14+).

    Divine Shield should grant total immunity (atm it doesn't, damage goes through from a lot of effects - like same Durumu's beam), remove absolutely any debuff and has its duration reversed to 12 sec. No more stupid "bubble+HS" glyph. Noone cares what people do in raids and how they cheat raid composition requirements. E. g., if now people stack ranged, doesn't mean that all melee should be reworked into ranged, same about paladins and their "bubble", seriously there was nothing OP with it.

    Oh and remove interrupt. Should be done together with total tuning down of endless cc, interrupts, silences and snares of all classes and abuse of "didn't interrupt NPC - die or watch NPC go to full HP" mechanics. Whole "Active Mitigatoin" system is also nothing but interrupts in disguise. There is a whole class for interrupts - rogue, no need to force interrupt mechanics upon most other classes.

    Alas, it's only a dream.

    Edit: Oh and also Righteous Defense / Divine Intervention, which were baseline paladin abilities, which were quite a signature abilities, should be brought back.
    Actually i would change my vote to just not do anything that you suggested.

  4. #24
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Something spammable like Devastate, reworking of tanking stats in general so we don't have anomalies like us wanting Haste gear (not specific to Paladins but still). I kind of like Holy Power though, but the "You can get 5 but only need 3" part still doesn't feel right, so maybe go back to Cata style where 3 is the limit.
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  5. #25
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I kind of like Holy Power though, but the "You can get 5 but only need 3" part still doesn't feel right, so maybe go back to Cata style where 3 is the limit.
    I would say the opposite, the 5 HP limit this expansion really made paladins (all specs) so much more appealing than the boring 3 HP where you had to spend or waste. Honestly if we went back I don't know if I could continue playing the class.

    In fact more things should be made along these lines. Already Monks can get up to 4-5 Chi while I believe no ability uses more than 3 (Fists of Fury, Enveloping Mist). Rogues (and Feral Druids) should honestly get a weaker version of Anticipation (perhaps 7 combo points) baseline.

    If you take a closer look and understand how it works, the only difference that Boundless Conviction makes is that HP is not wasted beyond 3, and can be "banked" if you prefer. If you want to play like Cata and pretend your 4th and 5th HP do not exist you can actually do so, but even then you will waste less HP (with Holy Avenger for instance) in the first place. Or as Ret you just waste a lot less globals.

    ---

    Changes I would make:

    1) Itemization (all specs + classes): Consolidate a lot of loot, basically so tanks and melee/hunters share stats, and healers and casters do.

    Mechanism: Remove Hit Rating completely from the game. Expertise will serve as "melee hit" for melee, hunters, and tanks. Spirit will convert to "spell hit" for all casters now, and serve as MP5 for healers. Tanks will naturally get Avoidance through passives (example, strength -> parry, agility -> dodge). Healers will naturally have spell hit cap with enough spirit (5100 in MOP).

    2) Mastery (holy): Rework absorbs of all healing classes and dampen them significantly, especially Discipline. Add Illuminated Healing as a passive with absorbs at a fixed percentage (say, 25%) of healing done instead of scaling with Mastery. My personal idea for the Mastery would be to increase the healing and absorption provided by HP finishers.

    3) Raid Healing (holy): Rework how single target heals work with Holy Power, in particular look into Holy Light. Give Holy Radiance and Daybreak an increased radius, for a targeted effect it has no business having such a small radius.

    4) Raid Cooldowns (holy): A more unique healer-only raid cooldown. My idea would be to rework Guardian of Ancient Kings into more of an automatic smart heal, similar to Revival/Tranquility but a little more unique (for instance, maybe only HoT the raid, similar to Tranq but without the "heal" component). Then we would have Guardian really fill its function as the main 3 minute CD for all specs.

    5) CC Rework (all specs): A bit of reworking to our CC's, perhaps a version of Blinding Light that is less useless for Holy (it's disappointing not being able to really use the "new 87" ability that everyone else got). Some more anti-CC's if possible. That or tone down CC's overall.

    6) Exorcism (ret): Make Exorcism less useless for Ret (in other words, scale it a bit better). It's disappointing how its so low in the priority list while an Art of War proc should be "exciting" rather. Perhaps make Exorcism AoE baseline while still allowing it to be used at range, to get some passive cleave.

    7) Hammer of the Righteous, AoE (ret/prot): Hammer of the Righteous is still really clumsy, someone suggested replacing it with Consecration, others suggest allowing it to be spammed, others suggest this and that. One idea could be to allow Consecration ticks a chance (with diminishing returns based on number of targets) to generate Holy Power for Ret (this is radical, I know) and replace Hammer completely.

    8) Seals (ret): Seals honestly really only serve a purpose for Ret at this point. An "AoE" versus "single target" seal is not very compelling, either. Here is where I would look to warriors for an example. It "could" be possible separating Holy and Prot seals (so one more "healing" defensive, another more "tanking" defensive oriented) but I'm not too sure how exciting two defensive stances for Ret would be.

    The Prot seal should definitely be a little more defensive for Ret (especially since now it doesn't even generate mana anymore). Perhaps Seal of Justice could have a place. Seal of Righteousness, on the other hand, I don't find very interesting in its current incarnation.

  6. #26
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I'd rather have each seal go along with one spec only e.g. Truth for Ret, Righteousness for Prot, Insight for Holy. Something like Righteousness giving Prot some kind of defensive buff, Truth being as is (and being able to be spread to other targets, with Ret's AOE reworked to make it better) and Insight being like the old Battle Healer for Holy only (your attacks can heal others). Same IMO should be with any kind of stance mechanic: One for each spec (barring utility things like a Druid's Travel Form) only, so there's no ambiguity about what stance you use, in this case if you are Prot you only ever use Righteousness, if Ret only ever Truth, if Holy only ever Insight (in the same vein for Warriors I always thought it should clearly be Arms = Battle, Prot = Defensive and Fury = Berserker, with bonuses being given to those specs for using the correct stance).

    Bake Justice's move debuff in by default to Judgment.
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  7. #27
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'd rather have each seal go along with one spec only e.g. Truth for Ret, Righteousness for Prot, Insight for Holy... so there's no ambiguity about what stance you use, in this case if you are Prot you only ever use Righteousness, if Ret only ever Truth, if Holy only ever Insight (in the same vein for Warriors I always thought it should clearly be Arms = Battle, Prot = Defensive and Fury = Berserker, with bonuses being given to those specs for using the correct stance).
    Then the question would be... why have seals to begin with?

    I fully agree that stances should not be Holy or Prot's business (just like tanking warriors basically staying in defensive stance, or bears outside of heart of the wild now just staying in bear form). So the main use of stances would be for Ret.

    Right now warrior stances are built around DPS warriors having all 3 as an option. DK stances allow the respective DPS stance for frost/unholy as well as blood as a "defensive stance" (blood DK's, of course, primarily just stay in blood presence). Another issue with druids that you mentioned, druids of all specs have uses for all available forms and are balanced around being able to use ALL stances, not just their "main one."

    Druids have their hybrid talents and unique moves that can be used in each stance (this shows itself way more in PvP, where for instance a resto druid will actually be balanced around taking advantage of cat form moves).

    Also, unlike Paladins the stances for warriors, DK's, and druids are sort of iconic to the class at this point, that even if say we "could" combine Unholy and Frost presence to be "DPS presence" and "Blood presence" that would take away a lot of class flavor for no real gain in ability consolidation. Seals on the other hand have gone through several iterations, so I think it's fair to rebalance them for Ret usage only even if it means adding/removing some.

    ---

    On this: Another idea could be re-introducing Seal of Blood as a primary "defensive stance/tanking" seal and Seal of Insight being the "healing" seal (so Ret can use it to be the "hybrid healer"/"battle healer" type).
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-10-13 at 01:29 AM.

  8. #28
    So long as Seal of Blood wouldn't have the old backlash treatment it had in Wrath I'd be okay getting it back in some form. I definitely agree we could use a more interesting seal system if it's going to stick around. Also, instead of different AoE and single target seals having seals where one might be better for certain situations AoE or ST might be more compelling.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    So long as Seal of Blood wouldn't have the old backlash treatment it had in Wrath I'd be okay getting it back in some form. I definitely agree we could use a more interesting seal system if it's going to stick around. Also, instead of different AoE and single target seals having seals where one might be better for certain situations AoE or ST might be more compelling.
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  10. #30
    its difficult to say. somehow i wish they would improve HoPo mechanics. the 3 steps are to few. should be a recource of lets say 1k or so, differen abilities producing different amounts (not just 1/0+procc 1/0) abilities making dynamic use of holypower, while unused holypwer should just increase something basic (all holydmg(dps), all heal (holy) and all dmgreduce (tank) by 1/5 of % rescource or such) so the "finishers" should be somehow a choice between "flat dmg bonus on holydmg" or "now i want to kill/heal/tank that damn thing". so using or storing the rescource or only using it when reaching tops would be an option. now its just "got it and out!"

    also somehow i personally miss the roleplay aspect. warrior and paladin felt so damn same, that i deleted the warrior. i dont know what makes paladin nowadays. the seals? donno they are to insignificant(, or so oversignificant that they get nerfed, because they actually did sth ^^)
    i miss auras and shorttime buffs. lately, in startrekonline, they introduced some mechanic for cruisers (the tanks in that space mmo), that made them passively buff allies. i think thats what paladins are once made for. (while shamans had short time static powerbuffs, paladins were moving flat-all-time-buffs) i think they somehow should get that back.
    new devotionaura is sth to start with. just split it up again into more auras, 3 or such, that can short time buff. ( for tanks sth that lowers threat of all nearby allies by 40% raising own threat gen by 20% or such)

    the existing spells thereby somehow lack synergy. while every other class has sth that "use x, make more dmg/have bonuseffect with y afterwards" paladins totally lack of it. (grand crusader got changed to passive again). and i really dont get why. why not making CS gain 50% armor ignore after judging an enemy or such?! (thats just an example)

    what i actually like most somehow is the protection paladin at the moment, though GC got passive procc again. i would wish for HoR to have no target need, a bit more dmg, maybe a bit different animation, showing a real hammer while turning round, but thats all. i could not think of another ability for prot. shieldbash is nice, avengershield is verynice (while i would like to see it work more like aveng-wrath, each target less makes it hit for 10%(2 targets) then 30%(if only a boss). but these are all just nice to have things. the only thing i miss on my prot is the passive "attacker takes holydmg" thing. i liked it.

    i think consecration could be reworked to be a "sanctifies yourself/your armour, every attacker trying to attack you takes x dmg) maybe a 15sec buff. i like consecrate for its dmg but i hate it to "pin myself" to a place.

    the most important thing i think would be to overhaul holypower mechanic to be more dynamic gain and use rescource than stupid 1-3(to 5) gain one or none mechanic. ang having holypower "in store" should grand some flat bonus. (plus hopo should not reduce that damn fast)

  11. #31
    Mechagnome
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    Since people think seals should be changed, more or less to introduce diversity between them, maybe this would give you an idea

    seal of truth is offensive, keeping its current iteration
    Seal of righteousness is now defensive, giving a small absorb to the player every auto attack or healing spell based on a low % wpn damage and a moderate AP scaling or a somewhat small SP scaling if holy
    Seal of insight now heals the lowest member in your party/raid after using a spell or ability for a moderate amount of SP, if the effect heals you, it is halved.

    This way truth is the defining DPS seal, which could preform a niche roll for tanks and healers if needed to provide some moderate dps, prot now has a true defense seal, with some mitigation use for ret and holy paladins, Seal of insight also gets some actual heal usage from it for all 3 specs and more importantly allows holy to notice their seal.
    Last edited by Reghame; 2013-10-13 at 03:45 AM.

  12. #32
    How about: When you drop hammer, it will last for 5 minutes like shrooms + efflo?
    Oh wait, that's too OP...I forget that we're not druids.
    /ducks outa here!

  13. #33
    All I ask is that Ret pallies are able to spread censure to multiple targets and more finishers for our holy power

  14. #34
    Censure not stacking to 5, like seriously, it work's like deadly poison used to, stack to 5 and then have additional benefit of instant damage, they changed poison so you only apply it no need to stack, why do we have to stack it, are we rogue 0.8 or what. Also some changes to AoE would be good, I dont really like that at 2 targets you just replace TV with Storm and at 3 crusader with hammer, and almost never use the AoE seal because it's a joke.

  15. #35
    Id like more AoE healing abilities, prism just isnt that good and hammer is only good as long as you stack on it. Holy radience is a joke.

  16. #36
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    1. Holy spec - less emphasis on AoE healing. Fast cheap heals, long expensive heals. Strong single-target healing. Efficiency. That's what was defining paladin out of other healers. No procs, which are just far beyond stupid. Proc of faster AoE heal from single-target heal? Adds nothing but excuse to meter padders.
    You cannot change this without overhauling all of healing. Right now if you changed holy paladins to only be around for single target heals no one would bring a paladin period. There is no place in raiding for pure single target healing or tank healing. And to make holy paladins a tank healer again you would pretty much have to get rid of active mitigation would would bore the hell out of many tanks.

  17. #37
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    How about: When you drop hammer, it will last for 5 minutes like shrooms + efflo?
    Next idea: Bring back Consecration for both Ret (as I mentioned above) and Holy. Holy needs a means to do some limited AoE DPS since we have none (and all other healers do) for quality of life regardless.

    Then, you can make, oh, "Teachings of the Light" where Consecration for Holy also heals your party as well. So we have a bit of niche in both spots.

  18. #38
    Would like to see them removed from the game

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    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-10-14 at 03:02 PM.

  19. #39
    I'd like seals to be better. There's basically only one choice ever and if you're not using it you're doing it wrong. If not blizzard might as well remove truth and righteousness from prot.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    And to make holy paladins a tank healer again you would pretty much have to get rid of active mitigation would would bore the hell out of many tanks.
    Lack of "active mitigation" worked just fine preCata. Many tanks who enjoy current system are simply enjoying rogue-like DPS-mindset.
    You cannot change this without overhauling all of healing.
    Cata made a huge overhaul of healing, to the point of many people hating new system. MoP didn't change much, just made it even more boring and homogenized (Non-scaling mana pools? seriously? Whose "brilliant" idea it was?). There is no need to "overhaul" anything, just to return back to preCata systems, which worked better.

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