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  1. #401
    Epic! Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    You have a pretty... interesting memory if you think Retribution was good at all in PvE during WotLK. I mean that pretty much ended about two thirds of the way through the beta. I guess it was decent in ToC, joke of a tier that was, but it was back to being crap in ICC. You needed a Shadowmourne just to be mediocre, and were easily replaced with a druid or rogue that didn't have to have a legendary invested in them to deal competitive damage, and was actually meant to wear the best in slot melee armor (that is to say, leather).

    In any event, the hyperbole certainly doesn't help your case.
    I'm sorry if you were a mediocre performer and lost your spot to a rogue or druid, but that simply wasn't the case for most of us. I dug up this old thread and spreadsheet I put together back in wrath. My "interesting memory" is pretty spot on. Feel free to provide your evidence of it being crap in ICC.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-DPS-Festergut

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    So I said I would get the numbers from WOL if it were easy. Well it wasn't too bad so this is from the top 120 dps of all classes on Heroic Festergut as of 9/15/10. I figured it was either this or Saurfang that would give the most accurate numbers not thrown off by massive cleave abilities or gimmicks. The only difference I see when browsing over the top 120 Saurfang numbers is that all numbers are inflated a bit (especially Fury and Fire) and a couple of the casters towards the bottom improve slightly.

    Prompted by "Were only competitve to the top classes once we have bis + shadowmourne. Even then its hard to say competitive when were always at the middle or half way towards the bottom." I think it is safe to assume all of these players are in near enough BIS and the Warriors/DKs all have SM as well. If the following does not show we are a competitive DPS class, I'm not sure what else there is to go by.

    Fury 20178
    Fire 19896
    Combat 19296
    Marks 18631
    Ret 18544
    Assasination 18255
    Unholy 17872
    Frost DK 17850
    Affliction 17816
    Shadow 17200
    Arcane 17060
    Demo 16859
    Enhance 16578
    Boomkin 16528
    Feral 16502
    Blood 16474
    Elemental 16203
    Destro 15616
    Survi 15395
    Arms 15151
    BM 13568
    Frost 11354
    Sub 12682 (only 73)

    Link to the Spreadsheet
    https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...1E&hl=en#gid=0
    Last edited by Swampmoose; 2013-12-12 at 03:24 AM.
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  2. #402
    Stood in the Fire Slirith's Avatar
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    4th spec(could be said for all classes) ranged holy dps(mind you I consider the next expansion the one after WoD)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpPKgi-niI
    How I feel about healers that try to DPS

  3. #403
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Ret was carried by 3 things in ICC really (broken proc mechanics with TaJ = 1, Shadowmourne proc abuse = 2, and of course everyone remembers stormspam resetting on swings = 3). Ret procrate was heavily fixed/nerfed/shattered just as Cataclysm was comming around if people remember.

    Those 3 things alligning for one tier of all content in Wrath is where all if not most bias about "how good it was" lies.
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-12-12 at 04:22 AM.
    WoW = Retired Main: Ret Alt(s): War , DK

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  4. #404
    But why take your word for it when the WoL rankings from September 2010 are readily available?

    http://web.archive.org/web/201009281...rgut/25H/dps/?
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  5. #405
    I think it would be pretty awesome if the level 100 talent "Final Verdict" was redesigned to this for Ret,

    Divine Verdict : Deals 225% weapon damage as Holy to all targets within 8 yards and applies Censure. Cost 3 Holy Power. Replaces Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm.

  6. #406
    Mechagnome PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I think it would be pretty awesome if the level 100 talent "Final Verdict" was redesigned to this for Ret,

    Divine Verdict : Deals 225% weapon damage as Holy to all targets within 8 yards and applies Censure. Cost 3 Holy Power. Replaces Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm.
    Eh, I dunno. I'm generally not in favour of anything that lowers the skill-cap of specs, and I feel like giving us Censure-spreading for free, as well as removing any element of thought from whether to use DS or TV would make us even more faceroll than we already are. While we'll still have a roundabout element of DoT-snapshotting with ES if that stays unchanged (having to pop it as soon as trinkets proc to ensure last tick happens with max trinkets up, instead of waiting for all trinkets to be up before popping it), we're easy enough to play as it is. Letting us blindly mash one finisher no matter the situation would be ever-so-slightly depressing.

    That said, Jesus H. Christ, if your suggestion wouldn't make us the top melee on any sustained cleave fight, nothing will.

  7. #407
    Mechagnome Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius View Post
    While we'll still have a roundabout element of DoT-snapshotting with ES if that stays unchanged .
    Pretty sure they've already said this will be changed in WoD.
    Retribution Paladin

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  8. #408
    -A holy runeforge where the paladin can use his faith to imbue weapons and shields with different effects
    -More bright colors of white, red and golden plate gear to give us proper templar or holy knight vibes.
    -The ability to use staff. Holy paladins can use them, and retribution paladins can make some nice str-polarm transmogs.
    -A cleave animation of light when you're using the righteous-seal.
    Mother pus bucket!

  9. #409
    Mechagnome Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    -A holy runeforge where the paladin can use his faith to imbue weapons and shields with different effects
    Translation: I'm too poor to enchant my weapons and want to do it for free like DKs.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    -More bright colors of white, red and golden plate gear to give us proper templar or holy knight vibes.
    Translation: I rolled a dwarf and need to look shiny to draw attention from the fact I have no knees.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    -The ability to use staff. Holy paladins can use them, and retribution paladins can make some nice str-polarm transmogs.
    Translation: I wanted a monk really but they don't get a glowing angel of death every 3 minutes, just some sad looking tiger.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    -A cleave animation of light when you're using the righteous-seal.
    Translation: I'm using seal of righteousness. I need to look good to cover up the fact I'm doing no damage.


    Lets go ahead and keep posting on topic, keep it constructive, and keep the attitude and sarcasm out of the posts. Thanks.
    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-12-13 at 02:59 AM.
    Retribution Paladin

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  10. #410
    Epic! Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    But why take your word for it when the WoL rankings from September 2010 are readily available?

    http://web.archive.org/web/201009281...rgut/25H/dps/?
    Lol, I feel like I'm reliving the old days in here. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you looked at the link, but here's what I see on my end (could just be me). Page 1 and 2 look like they might be ok. Once I get to page 3 of your link, dps numbers go up to 70k and fight times go down to 1 minute. Page 4 and beyond doesn't even exist.

    Then, if I go into retribution alone, the first page ranges from 19k - 18k, and then page 2 starts at 15k. A lot of data missing in between. Same for Fire, same for Fury, although Fury starts at 18k even though there are 20k+ on the page with all specs.

    So as of now I'm going to have to assume that link is completely useless. Page 1 and 2 of the initial link are the only two that appear useful, although page 1 is mostly outliers considering the 3k range between 12 fire mages (which is why I did an average of 120). I kept those in for the spreadsheet though to give the naysayers the benefit of the doubt. If this is not the case on your end, I welcome you to put together the information as I did. I will definitely try again when I'm not on my stone-age work laptop.

    If you don't trust my info, well that's unfortunate. I pulled all of it directly from WoL when the pages were current. You can compare quite a few of the numbers on the first page and a lot of it still seems consistent.

    Again, I'm sorry if you were replaced by druids or rogues even though you should have been competitive with those classes. And in regards to Shadowmourne, it was safe to assume that most warriors, dks, and paladins on the tops of these charts at the time I put this together were all using it. I believe we were on our 3rd or 4th one at the time. So that weapon isn't changing our position relative to those classes. Those classes would just take a slight shift downward relative to non-shadowmourne classes, putting us more in line with average, rather than above average, but I don't think we need to remove something was readily available to many at that point.

    Fact is we were decent in Wrath, and very good in ICC. Most people who say otherwise are just looking for an excuse as to why they are falling well short of the average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Ret was carried by 3 things in ICC really (broken proc mechanics with TaJ = 1, Shadowmourne proc abuse = 2, and of course everyone remembers stormspam resetting on swings = 3). Ret procrate was heavily fixed/nerfed/shattered just as Cataclysm was comming around if people remember.

    Those 3 things alligning for one tier of all content in Wrath is where all if not most bias about "how good it was" lies.
    So objects or mechanics put in the game, designed to give us (and other classes) a dps increase, should be discredited because they....did what they were supposed to do? Enough with the "yeah buts." If you didn't have those items, you weren't raiding enough to need to worry about your dps anyways.
    Last edited by Swampmoose; 2013-12-12 at 03:58 PM.
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  11. #411
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    There's almost no point to looking back to Wrath whatsoever. Not only paladins, but all classes and game/role philosophy have changed so much since then that any conclusions one can draw would be 100% irrelevant.

  12. #412
    Pandaren Monk Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    The removal of Holy Power at least for Ret. I haven't touched my paladin since they added that horrific resource to our class. It's a shame because Paladin was my main class through all of BC/Wrath.
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  13. #413
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    So objects or mechanics put in the game, designed to give us (and other classes) a dps increase, should be discredited because they....did what they were supposed to do? Enough with the "yeah buts." If you didn't have those items, you weren't raiding enough to need to worry about your dps anyways.
    Well if those said "mechanics" were indeed what they were and not deemed as "exploiting" mother nature of the game, I'm sure Blizzard wouldn't be adamant about how the way Seals + abilities proced things for Ret would need any changing. Fact was with those 3 things ret basically "ascended" from zero to hero (and from class design pov that is not ok). And ye I had all 3 to experience those flavours. Remember early Bryntroll thing aswell I guess? Same concept.
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-12-12 at 07:31 PM.
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  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    There's almost no point to looking back to Wrath whatsoever. Not only paladins, but all classes and game/role philosophy have changed so much since then that any conclusions one can draw would be 100% irrelevant.
    So history is irrelevant to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    -A holy runeforge where the paladin can use his faith to imbue weapons and shields with different effects
    I wouldn't be against unique weapon enchants for classes in the game, but not free ones. Like how glyphs are unique to class spells, you could have special weapon enchants for classes. Enchanters do have to make their money.
    -More bright colors of white, red and golden plate gear to give us proper templar or holy knight vibes.
    Would rather see more weapons like this then armor. Got plenty of armor with that style.
    -The ability to use staff. Holy paladins can use them, and retribution paladins can make some nice str-polarm transmogs.
    Staffs don't really fit Paladins. Might as well give us wands then.
    -A cleave animation of light when you're using the righteous-seal.
    That's asking a little too much from the artists for an animation that only occurs when you use a Seal. Especially when the game has so much pollution going on during boss fights.

  15. #415
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    So history is irrelevant to you?
    Completely irrelevant. Blizzard's design philosophy has even taken a 180 so trying to "go back" to any class design is wholly pointless.

    Care to give an argument why that's wrong?

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Would rather see more weapons like this then armor. Got plenty of armor with that style.
    Agreed. The art team likes its #savage and corrupted looking two-handers way too much. What the Hell is the sword from the current PvP season even supposed to be?
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

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  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    I wouldn't be against unique weapon enchants for classes in the game, but not free ones. Like how glyphs are unique to class spells, you could have special weapon enchants for classes. Enchanters do have to make their money.
    My main point aligns with yours. I wouldn't mind if I had to buy like enchanting mats or something for the forge to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Would rather see more weapons like this then armor. Got plenty of armor with that style.
    I don't agree. There hasn't really been anything like this since TBC. The SoO model is very good, but the colors are like dark gray and brown. Why not get inspiration from T1, T2, T6, swiftsteel etc? There are a few nice weapons out there like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Staffs don't really fit Paladins. Might as well give us wands then.
    Depends on the staff I think. Many of them are basically polearms.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    That's asking a little too much from the artists for an animation that only occurs when you use a Seal. Especially when the game has so much pollution going on during boss fights.
    Well, if they have time updating shadowbolt and moonfire, why not the seal? The fireworks show is being dealt with by the devs. I think they said they're gonna tone down every spell effect that's not your own.
    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-12-13 at 03:01 AM.
    Mother pus bucket!

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius View Post
    Eh, I dunno. I'm generally not in favour of anything that lowers the skill-cap of specs, and I feel like giving us Censure-spreading for free, as well as removing any element of thought from whether to use DS or TV would make us even more faceroll than we already are. While we'll still have a roundabout element of DoT-snapshotting with ES if that stays unchanged (having to pop it as soon as trinkets proc to ensure last tick happens with max trinkets up, instead of waiting for all trinkets to be up before popping it), we're easy enough to play as it is. Letting us blindly mash one finisher no matter the situation would be ever-so-slightly depressing.

    That said, Jesus H. Christ, if your suggestion wouldn't make us the top melee on any sustained cleave fight, nothing will.
    The change is really for the people who want Divine Storm back in main rotation and the people who think the Final Verdict talent is too bland. It would also help out our seriously bad cleave damage. Dk's spread diseases to everything, Warriors spread Bleeds to everything, It only makes sense that the talent spreads Censure for us.

    I guess you could say it simplifies the rotation a little, but really, its not like pressing Divine Storm instead of Templar's Verdict requires any real skill to begin with. It just adds to the unnecessary spell clutter. And if people don't like that play style they could always choose another talent over it.

  19. #419
    causes your judgements to consume seals but increases its damage by 100%. also makes inquisition built in

    talent and cant be macrod to make it reaply right away
    Last edited by IHateJayWilson; 2013-12-13 at 04:26 AM.

  20. #420
    Holy pvp perspective:

    - Make judgement always viable to use (not pve optimal, give HP at least).
    - An untalented HoT or shield
    - Seals having a larger effect on gameplay: Insight for healing like usual, truth for a large damage increase / healing decrease, maybe a minor atonement-type heal, allowing for offensive gameplay. Almost like switching from healing to dps "stance".
    - Less casted cc, more "buffing and supporting" type moves. We were always meant to support people with stuff like freedom and BoP, why suddenly do we have all this casted cc?
    - Either hand of Sac unpurgeable or a way out of cc.
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