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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    Holy pvp perspective:

    - Make judgement always viable to use (not pve optimal, give HP at least).
    - An untalented HoT or shield
    - Seals having a larger effect on gameplay: Insight for healing like usual, truth for a large damage increase / healing decrease, maybe a minor atonement-type heal, allowing for offensive gameplay. Almost like switching from healing to dps "stance".
    - Less casted cc, more "buffing and supporting" type moves. We were always meant to support people with stuff like freedom and BoP, why suddenly do we have all this casted cc?
    - Either hand of Sac unpurgeable or a way out of cc.
    They should definitely make Sacred Shield baseline for all Paladins like it was in Wotlk.

  2. #442
    Pandaren Monk Lyese's Avatar
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    Honestly, Sacred Shield isn't a huge deal. I'd rather Holy Shock baseline that shares a cd with Crusader Strike, so we can at least have steady HoPo generation at range on top of better self-healing without either eating HoPo or 1/3 of our mana.
    Sig/ava made by the amazing Elyssia! ♥

  3. #443
    Cata SS for ret again, i loved doing arena in s11, it was harder to train me, wich meant that i did not had to rely so much on my arena partner.

  4. #444
    -Holy shock baseline, shares cd with Crusader strike
    -Ret mastery now increases holy damage done rather than adding extra holy damage to some of our attacks

    Shockadin is now reborn

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Erke View Post
    -Holy shock baseline, shares cd with Crusader strike
    -Ret mastery now increases holy damage done rather than adding extra holy damage to some of our attacks

    Shockadin is now reborn
    I dont think a flat % increase to damage would help ret perform better, for doing that would at the same time cut down a significant source of holy damage.

    Blizzard should probably take a whack at revamping seal/judgement system with this expansion. At the moment it is very passive and dull. (the seal effects for example are cool to look at, but you practically only see it once and then nothing thereafter)
    Last edited by Celebhil; 2013-12-16 at 01:40 AM.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Roosky View Post
    What changes would you guys be interested in seeing to any spec of paladins in the next expansion?
    Holy power gone.

  7. #447
    Pandaren Monk Lyese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celebhil View Post
    I dont think a flat % increase to damage would help ret perform better, for doing that would at the same time cut down a significant source of holy damage.

    Blizzard should probably take a whack at revamping seal/judgement system with this expansion. At the moment it is very passive and dull. (the seal effects for example are cool to look at, but you practically only see it once and then nothing thereafter)
    iirc, our mastery in beta was +% Holy dmg until Divine Purpose was tooled together. The game as a whole could do less with +% dmg modifiers to elements, but I'm not a game designer.

    The most "involved" seal/judgment was when Judgment set a specific debuff based on the seal consumed. Judgment itself was off the GCD, but seals were on. Without opening the floodgate back open to seal twisting (abusing Seal of Blood's attack property to also roll a chance for Seal of Command mid-swing), I doubt they'd ever go back to that, esp with the empty gcd casts.
    Sig/ava made by the amazing Elyssia! ♥

  8. #448
    Well reverting back to older forms i dont think would work either. Scap the buff/debuff slapping altogether and just come up with a bread n butter skillset that would work.

  9. #449
    Pandaren Monk Lyese's Avatar
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    I mentioned in another thread that seals could work like presences/stances/aspects (i.e. one seal acting as Defensive Stance/Blood Presence, another acting as a dps stance, another as a healing stance) and it would be pretty elegant, but also really bland.
    Sig/ava made by the amazing Elyssia! ♥

  10. #450
    I would be massively for a return of Seal of Blood, without doubt the funnest time in playing a paladin was when that seal was kicking ass. That with a Ret's mastery and we would be looking great.

    Would love to see a return to the Aura system again, another thing that was character defining as a paladin was the aura you brought to the raid.

    Holy Shock base line for all specs. Not sure if it has a cooldown as holy but I would include one as a ret and prot.

    some form of on demand AoE again would be nice. Second to last boss in TeS was totally pointless as a ret wandering around twiddling your thumbs whilst everyone else was smashing away with on demand AoE.

  11. #451
    Mechagnome Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gifu View Post
    Holy power gone.
    Dual resource systems are much more interesting in my view, though they could certainly develop it more. It does seem to be the way forward, though, as more and more classes are going down that route.
    Retribution Paladin

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Thete#2661

  12. #452
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    Dual resource systems are much more interesting in my view, though they could certainly develop it more. It does seem to be the way forward, though, as more and more classes are going down that route.
    It's kind of interesting when I watched Hennyox and Peachblossom give entirely different opinions on HP (on Finalboss show). But personally, I like HP. The alternative is fixed rotations and even more cooldown-based shit which is much less flexible and takes much less skill.

  13. #453
    im for getting rid of hp and mana, seriously where does that even come from... and if u want duel resources how bout bringing back my libram and have that give u some sort of other crap to manage. because we dont have to manage anything now, does any one here other then holy pallies notice the presence of mana or even hp seriously do we even get a choice what we use hp on. ret if u have a brain u know what your going to use it on and for all intensive purposes it only slows down how fast you use your abilities. y not just put cool downs on the abilities that now use hp. and get rid of mana because its useless. and let use just smite our enemies because there not "righteous"

  14. #454
    All this talk about a buffing and support class role like a 12 class has been thrown around, but a 4th pally spec that is a jack-of-all-trades that also fills that supporting role would be cool IMO, instead of making a whole new class for it. Pallys have always been the most buffing/support-utility driven class in both diablo and warcraft.

    A 4th spec that gets minor healing, better than ret but worse than holy, and minor tanking abilities (maybe mostly cd oriented) so they can offtank in a pinch, and minor damage thats better than holy but worse than ret. Then you build a role around support abilities focusing on on things like auras and blessings and hand spells that strengthen a group. I know its waaay not a possibility but if any class would get that role I see paladins in it for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Getting the phrase "PUSSY DESTROYER" tattoo'd on your face isn't a smart move for your career.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It's kind of interesting when I watched Hennyox and Peachblossom give entirely different opinions on HP (on Finalboss show). But personally, I like HP. The alternative is fixed rotations and even more cooldown-based shit which is much less flexible and takes much less skill.
    Can you link it?

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    Dual resource systems are much more interesting in my view, though they could certainly develop it more. It does seem to be the way forward, though, as more and more classes are going down that route.
    Dual resource systems are indeed more interesting, but only when they fit and compliment the class. Mechanically, I think the Energy / Combo Point system works extremely well for Rogues and Ferals. The use of DoTs (Bleeds and Poisons) allows the CP system to really shine because of the flexibility of layering different types of attacks into a priority. But Paladins do not use Bleeds nor Poisons.

    And this is why Holy Power does not work well with Paladins. This is why we still have that clunky feeling to our priority. There is no proper way to layer different types of abilities into a system that uses CPs without Energy. And I definitely do not think Paladins should be using Energy as a resource.

    HOLY POWER BAR. That is what they should have given Paladins. Similar to Rage in function, but much different. Different HP builders creating different amounts of HP is the key. This allows that natural layering effect. It creates a solid priority. This also allows different HP consumers to cost different amounts of HP.

    For example: (Assuming we could store 100 HP) Templar's Verdict might cost 50 HP. Divine Storm might only cost 30 HP.

    This allows more flexibility in how our actual abilities are tuned damage-wise because we are dealing with damage vs cost opposed to just damage. When every builder creates exactly one HP, you are left with less options.

    The Holy Power Bar would still create a similar feeling to the current design. You would still feel like your using abilities to build up to a more powerful attack. It's just that the process would be much more elegant and fitting for a Paladin.



    Okay, to really knock this idea home, here is a very rough example of how things might could work for Retribution:

    Judgement (150%) Creates 20 HP - (6 sec CD)
    Crusader Strike (125%) Creates 15 HP - (No CD)
    Exorcism (100%) Creates 10 HP - (No CD)
    Consecration (100%) Creates 10 HP - (9 sec CD)
    Hammer of Wrath (250%) Creates 15 HP - (6 sec CD)


    Templar’s Verdict (300%) Costs 50 HP
    Divine Storm (150%) Costs 30 HP


    Inquisition - Applied by Judgment (Duration = 10 sec) Each auto-attack has a 15% chance to create 20 HP
    Art of War - Crusader Strike has a 25% chance to cause your next Exorcism to do double damage and create 20 HP
    Last edited by The Clash; 2013-12-16 at 10:21 PM.

  17. #457
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterik View Post
    Can you link it?
    You can find it on http://finalboss.tv (it's the second most recent episode I think). I haven't actually had time to watch the entire podcast from start to finish myself, which I might just because I'm interested in their opinions about 5.3 versus 5.4 design changes.

    Particularly one thing that jumped out, is that Holy Power is always been the "rotational" resource. Mana is not really a resource that you watch with your rotation like Energy is, it's a long-term resource that's meant to measure your longevity. DPS and Tanks are meant to be able to continue DPS and Tanking indefinitely, that's why they don't have resources like mana (or even if they do, it's meant to be constantly replenished over time).

    So basically, when I'm healing at the moment I don't think of mana because it doesn't affect my rotation. The only thing it does, as a resource, is force long-term decisions, how hard do you want to heal at the moment, knowing that it takes away (potentially) from your ability to keep the group up at the end.

    Just due to this, I don't agree with the interpretation of "two bars to manage," because that's not how the spec really works.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    HOLY POWER BAR.
    Seems like a dumbed-down version of dks runic power. Some abilities generate holy/runic power and others use it. Its like that but without the runes on your main abilities to give a sense of failure. I know your just kinda throwing it out there but a spammable crusader strike? It doesn't feel like theres any punishment for just spamming abilities like running out of runes does. There would definitely need to be something else to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Getting the phrase "PUSSY DESTROYER" tattoo'd on your face isn't a smart move for your career.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    Seems like a dumbed-down version of dks runic power. Some abilities generate holy/runic power and others use it. Its like that but without the runes on your main abilities to give a sense of failure. I know your just kinda throwing it out there but a spammable crusader strike? It doesn't feel like theres any punishment for just spamming abilities like running out of runes does. There would definitely need to be something else to it.
    DKs don't run out of runes either. They stay gcd-capped most if not all of the time.

    I would like to see the cooldown on Crusader Strike removed no matter what they do for WoD. I dislike downtime and feel that the natural 1.5 gcd for Paladins is all the downtime we need.

    What I am suggesting wouldn't change the gameplay too drastically. It's pretty straight forward. The concept is not to cap HP while maximizing your priority. The redesigned Inquisition and Art of War provide the RNG to keep things interesting.

    But, I would love to hear any potential further improvements that could be made to the concept.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    Mechanically, I think the Energy / Combo Point system works extremely well for Rogues and Ferals. The use of DoTs (Bleeds and Poisons) allows the CP system to really shine because of the flexibility of layering different types of attacks into a priority. But Paladins do not use Bleeds nor Poisons.
    Inquisition is the Paladin dot / bleed. Instead of reapplying a dot / bleed before it falls off you're reapplying a buff before it falls off. But Inquisition is so widely hated it's been pushed down and fills that role less and less.

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