1. #1

    Odd situation with BM opener.

    Now I don't play BM on many fights now, but a couple weeks back with a fair bit less item level than I have now and no 4p I was bursting something like 800k single target as BM at times.

    Now, with a 4p, and probably an average 8 ilvls higher I'm barely scraping the same numbers, it's happened since I started to use Fatals proposed opener



    Just a tad confused, I know you can get bad RNG with cobra strikes, crits, trinkets not proccing properly, which does indeed happen to me sometimes. But surely that can't always be the case. So, is that particular opener flawed, am I perhaps getting bad RNG?

    This is my Pull Macro

    /cast Bestial Wrath
    /cast Serpent Sting
    /cast Rapid Fire
    /petattack
    /cast Rabid(Ferocity Ability)

    (Note, I don't have engineering or a troll/orc racial)

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Alth/advanced This is my armoury so you can see what trinkets im rolling with.
    Last edited by Alth; 2013-10-25 at 03:23 PM.

  2. #2
    I dont like his opener at all to be honest. Depending if we lust at the start, my opener usually is:

    SrS
    StP
    DB
    BW - KC
    RF - GT
    AS
    AS
    AS
    AS
    CS
    KC

    etc..
    I rapid fire with lust because with the 2pc RF is usually almost of cooldown anyways after lust is over and It still gives you loads of extra focus during your opener even though you are not casting that much.

    And yes, I do have TED (and AoC)
    Last edited by esnar; 2013-10-25 at 05:44 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by esnar View Post
    I dont like his opener at all to be honest. Depending if we lust at the start, my opener usually is:

    SrS
    StP
    DB
    BW - KC
    RF
    AS
    AS
    AS

    etc..
    I rapid fire with lust because with the 2pc RF is usually almost of cooldown anyways after lust is over and It still gives you loads of extra focus during your opener even though you are not casting that much.

    And yes, I do have TED (and AoC)
    See thats the thing though, by popping SS Stampede and DB before BW, our trinkets are already dwindling. Meaning we can't easily line up our hard kitting BW+KC combo when our trinkets are at their peak. On paper his opener seems like a good idea, due to getting the most out of your KC's. The issue is, it also wastes GCD's inside BW, I'm just really confused on what the better option would be.

    One potential opener I am thinking about is as follows:

    1. SS
    2. Stampede+RF
    3. BW+GT
    4. KC
    5. DB
    6. AS
    7. AS
    8. AS
    9. AS
    10. KC
    11. AS
    12. AS

    Now with this opener, I would be using my KC's at optimal trinket peaks (I use Renataki+AoC). With this particular opener, it does the exact same thing as Fatals opener, while making the most use out the GCD's inside BW.

    I believe with your trinket setup, fatals opener could actually be very ideal esnar as you want to be fitting your KC's as early as possible into your opener to not waste the colossal agility modifier your TED gives initially. For Renataki though, I do think Fatals opener could be improved in the way I said above.
    Last edited by Alth; 2013-10-25 at 05:09 PM.

  4. #4
    I see what hes getting at, but I've tested mine and his opener thoroughly, and I've just had better results with mine. It's just not worth wasting those non-hitting shots during BW, even though you are getting a big KC off.

    I should have looked your trinket setup, and yes, that does seem like the ideal opener with renataki's.

    Also, I'm still trying to get Harroms (not only for SV) because I just don't really like TED for the reason that you cant really react to the proc because of the reverse proc effect. It just feels really clunky to me.
    Last edited by esnar; 2013-10-25 at 05:58 PM.

  5. #5
    With AoC+TED, I do pretty much what you do Alth except I still like to DB right before BW and the first thing I cast after BW is KC, then I follow with the GT. With this I can burst to 1m+, but I still need to do more testing to see if it averages out to be better in the long run. Basically like this:

    1. SrS
    2. Stampede/RF
    3. DB
    4. BW/KC (not macro'ed)
    5. GT
    the rest is self-explanatory (AS until KC off cd). This way, I get the KC off when my TED proc is at 8s and 2s left. The main downside to my starter is I get the first KC off with 0 stacks of 4p, but obviously the second at 5.
    Last edited by timoseewho; 2013-10-26 at 05:59 PM.
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  6. #6
    The only reason I didn't put DB before BW timo, is because I would then have to Macro BW+KC together so I could line up my second KC with the last tick of Renataki. The issue here is people have reported that if you Macro BW with KC the KC doesn't actually register as being affected by the BW. Now I don't know which would be the better option for sure here. "Wasting" a GCD inside BW for your DB, or potentially having a less powerful KC due to it not being affected by BW.

    If the macro issue is in fact false, then your opener would probably be better overall.
    Last edited by Alth; 2013-10-25 at 06:25 PM.

  7. #7
    Optimal opening sequence greatly depends on your trinkets, you can't blindly copy someone others opener without knowing gear (s)he is wearing. For example someone is using ebon detonator and other is using renataki. Opener goes almost backwards in that situation. Then there are ppl using aoc and harom, again opener has some modifications. It was easy last tier when everyone had t15 2set, bad juju and renataki. Now we have three viable trinkets assuming ppl even have their hands on em yet.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by soviett View Post
    Optimal opening sequence greatly depends on your trinkets, you can't blindly copy someone others opener without knowing gear (s)he is wearing. For example someone is using ebon detonator and other is using renataki. Opener goes almost backwards in that situation. Then there are ppl using aoc and harom, again opener has some modifications. It was easy last tier when everyone had t15 2set, bad juju and renataki. Now we have three viable trinkets assuming ppl even have their hands on em yet.
    I'm aware of that. But if you take a look at his spreadsheet, he does a proposed opener for Renataki too. After testing it though I found my results to be poorer than usual. I have came up an opener a few posts above now, and will try to test that asap in a raid environment.

  9. #9
    I have AoC and Ted, Rf and normal version cause sha will not drop a normal of H trinket qq any ways my opener is:

    SrS
    RF/BW
    KC
    AS (till Kc is off cd)
    KC
    AS
    AS
    AS
    (I really like ToTH so I have to usually cause another SrS cause my focus is capped)
    KC
    By this time im at 1mill plus, but then I drop fast....

  10. #10
    I thought they changed trinkets so there was no guaranteed proc on pull.

    That could be the issue.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    I thought they changed trinkets so there was no guaranteed proc on pull.

    That could be the issue.
    This also plays a big part yes. Especially AoC doesn't like to proc on the pull it seems, and my dps drops about 150k then.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer View Post
    I have AoC and Ted, Rf and normal version cause sha will not drop a normal of H trinket qq any ways my opener is:

    SrS
    RF/BW
    KC
    AS (till Kc is off cd)
    KC
    AS
    AS
    AS
    (I really like ToTH so I have to usually cause another SrS cause my focus is capped)
    KC
    By this time im at 1mill plus, but then I drop fast....
    I assume you meant to include stampede somewhere :P.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by esnar View Post
    This also plays a big part yes. Especially AoC doesn't like to proc on the pull it seems, and my dps drops about 150k then.
    Noticed it too with AoC trinket. Mine literally refuses to proc on the pull for me, and when it does I never get a LnL procc with the trinket (I mainly play SV). Quite frustrating to say the least since it really fucks your overall dps compared to others. Not sure what blizzards fascination is with making your overall dps at the end of the fight vary by upwards of 30k because your trinket refused to proc on the pull.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    I assume you meant to include stampede somewhere :P.


    Noticed it too with AoC trinket. Mine literally refuses to proc on the pull for me, and when it does I never get a LnL procc with the trinket (I mainly play SV). Quite frustrating to say the least since it really fucks your overall dps compared to others. Not sure what blizzards fascination is with making your overall dps at the end of the fight vary by upwards of 30k because your trinket refused to proc on the pull.
    Yea Stampede right when AoC procs,I dont have a issue with it not procing on the pull its usually a little delayed after TeD pros but only like 2-3 sec

  14. #14
    i dont like ted at all. it just too Little to plan, if it was renakatis v2 i would use it but as its i wont, im 100% sure you can get same results with multistrike and more consistent.

    that dosnt mean he is wrong tho, he is pretty good at what he does and im sure it Works for him, i just dont like it.

    1 thing that you can do to forcé trinkets is pop an early DB, that always proc my AoC trinket (95% of the time) and by the time im hitting that 2nd KC is hitting for 800k+ due to 4pc, both trinkets up (even tho im using juju since i dont have my 2nd SoO trinket) prepot, eng gloves and orc racial.

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    SrS(Trinkets proc(hopefully ICD too -.-))
    RF+Stamp
    DB
    GT
    BW+KC
    AS
    AS
    AS
    AS
    KC(10 stacks Renataki here)

    is what you want to use with Renataki.

    Atm I have HC-WF AoC and HC Haromm's and I don't like BM anymore since SV can do the same numbers and is much more enjoyable. SV with TotH feels the best, sims are so inaccurate since they most often average out certain things and can't use stuff intelligently.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    SrS(Trinkets proc(hopefully ICD too -.-))
    RF+Stamp
    DB
    GT
    BW+KC
    AS
    AS
    AS
    AS
    KC(10 stacks Renataki here)

    is what you want to use with Renataki.

    Atm I have HC-WF AoC and HC Haromm's and I don't like BM anymore since SV can do the same numbers and is much more enjoyable. SV with TotH feels the best, sims are so inaccurate since they most often average out certain things and can't use stuff intelligently.
    That's the opener I had been using before trying out fatals, and the one I will stick to from now on. It just feels so much nicer, and the extea GCD inside BW from a GT is nice. Personally I don't roll with DB though, I just don't like it, so I tend to do BW + AS first. This is also useful if you have high latency, so you dont waste your KC, as sometimes the latency can not register that BW has been popped if you macro them together.

    Agreed though, SV all the way. Use it on every fight but Galakras atm. I also favour ToTH too. One thing you can do with it as SV which the sims cannot take into account is if you manage to refresh a big serpent sting on the target with trinket procs, you can literally just spam AS for a very cheap cost without the need to Cobra shot, letting your big sting tick for longer.

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