Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
... LastLast
  1. #101
    eternal kilnmasters are more deadly than anything that's ever been in a 5man dungeon, unless your a hunter/warlock then as usual your pet is a complete god vs a billion aoe damage.

  2. #102
    Timeless Isle's great. You can farm the gear at your own pace, without having to worry about anything else.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    I loved the early cataclysm heroics, and would love for Blizzard to at the very least add another dungeon difficulty and put the early cataclysm heroic version there, so that those who can't handle it can keep on grinding their mindless npc's with no effort without being able to complain about losing out on dungeons. Alas, I doubt Blizzard will ever do this, it would be too good to be true.

    This is something I would like them to do:
    Heroic dungeons -> regular dungeons
    new mode -------> heroic dungeons, requires a premade group (otherwise people will call out for nerfs).
    challenge modes--> challenge mode
    If anything, I see that being more likely than not.

    IIRC, there was a blue post suggesting that they were entertaining the notion, can't seem the find it. They've already established a precedent with Flex and Heroic Scenarios; it's not too much of a struggle to offer more difficult content for those who want it. It doesn't necessarily need to be really difficult, but there's obviously wiggle-room between faceroll and hardcore content.

    I'd expect tiering something along the lines of:

    Scenarios and Dungeons < Heroic Scenarios = Heroic Dungeons = LFR < Endgame Zone(s) = Flex < Normal Raids < Heroic Raids

    Personally, I love the isle. For someone who's capped all eleven classes, it's an absolute godsend. I'm able to at least bring everyone up to ToT level and ease into SoO. I can't just grind dungeons eleven times - I might have to murder someone.

    In the future, I'd like to see a balance of directed content (dailies) and open roaming, moreso than just the Shaohao quest; give players some direction, while encouraging exploration. TI is obviously a test case, and they've already suggested TI was a success and will be offering similar content in the future. I'm excited for it, more options is fantastic, and I imagine future versions of it will be far larger in scale.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-10-13 at 01:01 PM.

  4. #104
    Mechagnome Tucci's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    747
    I can't believe how many people are below 50k dps. There are ACTUALLY people at 20 and 30k!! I even saw a mage at 19k. This isn't just bad players. This is bad, half afk, carry me please, I just fully geared in 2 hours from timeless isle, time to queue for SoO players that are hitting what lights up when they aren't backpedaling out of fire that DBM has to scream at them 17 times about. I don't think I've seen such bad dps ever. You have a minimum of 496 ilvl. There is no excuse.

    You couple this with 1 hr queue times and you get a lot of angry people including myself. Also, queue times when a tank leaves is sometimes as long as normal queue times when you aren't even in LFR yet so people avoid kicking tanks even if they're terrible. There was a tank yesterday who was ungemmed, unenchanted, not reforged and running INTO aoe and standing in it constantly, never listening and the vote to kick failed on him twice because people didn't want to wait. When it finally went through we luckily got another tank very fast and downed the boss right away. And people were getting mad at me for saying we should kick anyone under a certain dps (75-80k).


    Blizzard needs to implement a system where if people are averaging under a certain dps for a fight (it would change from fight to fight) they would get a debuff or something that would start ticking down and if you didn't meet the dps requirement before the debuff was up, you get kicked, sort of like the debuff in BG's. The problem with this I guess is that sometimes you're doing a different mechanic of a fight than other people so dps would vary. They would have to make it something just there to kick the people doing ABYSMAL dps. 20-50k on iron juggernaut is ABYSMAL. The debuff could maybe kick anyone under 70k on that fight. I think that's pretty fair. If that was the case, we would've lost probably 5-8 people. My 85 mage does almost 40k in Cata gear. Again, there's no excuse. And for the record, when I mentioned we should look at low dps and kick people under a certain amount, dps shot way up next pull.


    I'd say they also need to give tanks more incentive to queue. Something like 2k gold for staying and fully completing an LFR and/or extra VP or something. Can't believe how long SoO queue times are. Brand new wing, 1+hr queues.
    Last edited by Tucci; 2013-10-13 at 12:56 PM.
    i5 2500k @ 4.7Ghz | GTX 670 SLI OC | 8gb DDR3 1600 | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | X-Fi Platinum | 1TB WD Caviar Black | Corsair TX650 | LG M2762D-PM 27" 1080p | Logitech THX Z-5300e 5.1 | CM Stacker STC-T01 | Razer Naga/Logitech MX-518 | Noppoo Choc Mini Cherry MX Red | Logitech G330/Audio-Technica ATH-M50

  5. #105
    IMO dungeons are fun at first but soon grow very tedious after you've cleared them a few times. And they take up art resources that could have been spent on the raids, which in turn last us a lot longer than dungeons.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  6. #106
    For gearing Wotlk and Cata last patch dungeon were pretty good and funnier than running around on Island.

    I prefered 5 man dungeon than Scenario but HSce feel ok to me. I'm fine if they want to focus more on them than 5man now but I think it should be 100% chance to get an item. They could change the ilvl. HSce were released when ToT was here since 1 patch already and they dgave us a chance to get 516ilvl items. It's between LFR and normal. If it's 100% chance to get an item I'd lower ilvl to LFR one if released in the same patch. If they put new HSce between two major patch then a ilvl between last lfr/normal raid is fine.
    Why 100% chance drop? old H5man had 3-4 bosses dropping epic + quest when you do them for the first time.

    giving 1 item after last boss defeated in HSce is defeated isn't too much especially when you can get something you already have (since they released Hsce I got 6 weapons, 5 ring 3 boots).

    Or they could increase reward when you complete it timed

    And please bring back minimum ilvl to join them..

  7. #107
    I agree, the Timeless Isle sucks. No story, no difficulty, no variety.
    I'm not particularly fond of chain dungeon running but it's surely better than this. In my opinion 5.1 style dailies plus slightly harder dungeons and heroic scenarios is the best mix.
    Last edited by Stannis; 2013-10-13 at 03:23 PM.

  8. #108
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    1,831
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon?
    -people are just walking on an isle, killing mindless mobs,
    -they can get gear just after they find chests(don't even need to kill mobs),
    -new dungeon means boss fights, so people would be more prepared for a raid,
    -new dungeons would be overall better than Timeless Isle, which is grind fest(of course doing dungeons is also grinding, but not as much as Timeless Isle, people enjoy more doing dungeons),

    I just came to this conclusion after seeing many people in LFR with Timeless Isle gear, they were doing less than 50-60K DPS and they were just bad.

    I think that Blizzard was just lazy, they just made an isle with loot all over the place, which is pretty stupid for me.
    What's your opinion?

    This thread isn't LFR vs Flex, LFR vs Normal/Heroic.
    It's thread about gearing though timeless isle vs gearing in a new dungeons.
    I couldn't agree with you more. This game is an mMorpg. That is massively MULTIPLAYER online role playing game. We need to emphasize that more. I prefer questing to grinding mobs etc. Isle of Thunder is my ideal area really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mear View Post
    And I loved timeless because I think instances and raids gets booring as hell after 2-4 clears since it becomes more about getting gear then rather having fun, while I had a blast in timeless isles and the gear there was more of a bonus. + The whole account bound <3<3<3 since there is no chance in hell I'm going to to the same thing I have already done tons of times before just to make them useful.
    But then again I'm that person who also thinks the whole concept of instanced raids and such as endgame is an outdated concept and the quicker we get away from it in mmo's the better.
    Yes because Rift showed how well that worked out...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    I agree, the Timeless Isle sucks. No story, no difficulty, no variety.
    I'm not particularly fond of chain dungeon running but it's surely better than this. In my opinion 5.1 style dailies plus slightly harder dungeons and heroic scenarios is the best mix.
    I agree with everything here up to the scenarios. I'm not a fan of anything under 5 players really. The scenarios kind of feel like a few people out running around instead of 3 people going towards a common goal.

  9. #109
    Pit Lord Compstance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,333
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon?
    -people are just walking on an isle, killing mindless mobs,
    -they can get gear just after they find chests(don't even need to kill mobs),
    -new dungeon means boss fights, so people would be more prepared for a raid,
    -new dungeons would be overall better than Timeless Isle, which is grind fest(of course doing dungeons is also grinding, but not as much as Timeless Isle, people enjoy more doing dungeons),

    I just came to this conclusion after seeing many people in LFR with Timeless Isle gear, they were doing less than 50-60K DPS and they were just bad.

    I think that Blizzard was just lazy, they just made an isle with loot all over the place, which is pretty stupid for me.
    What's your opinion?

    This thread isn't LFR vs Flex, LFR vs Normal/Heroic.
    It's thread about gearing though timeless isle vs gearing in a new dungeons.
    I'm not a fan of grinding, so from a subjective standpoint, I agree that I'd like new dungeons over a Timeless Isle setup. Every time I fly there my subconscious is like "really, dude, you're going here again?" I don't need any gear from there or anything, but I find myself flying out there randomly for some reason lol. Usually spend about 10 minutes and ask myself wtf I'm doing and hearth.

    From a more objective standpoint, having dungeons over and isle isn't going to make people better players. We've had dungeons for how many years now?

    Skill is a personality thing. People who want to be good will be good. People who don't care won't be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesalia View Post
    nerds love hating the things they love
    <Fracture> newly formed on Magtheridon-US is recruiting. 1 Tank, 1 Heal, 2 RDPS. 13/14 (as guild), hitting heroics once we're full.

  10. #110
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Florida!
    Posts
    2,946
    You coulda at least stated it was your opinion that the Isle is worse. Stating it's a fact and that there are people under you saying they like the Isle better kinda ruins your point.


    Just for shits and giggles, I'll throw in my two cents: I prefer the Isle more myself.

  11. #111
    from a hardcore POV. id say timeless isle is great for alts. you gear up by farming burdens->join flex grps (either pugs or guild altruns)->join a normal grp (again either guild altgrp or pugs). It simply let you skip (or at least shortens down) that horrible part of gear progression that is lfr. Later in the teir when we got heirloom weps there will be no need at all to do lfr anymore. and this is imo great!

    i dinged lvl 90 with my priest the first week of this patch, did some rare farming for a week and then joined flex pugs. and now im 540. i did do the new lfrs once to see if they were as horrible as ive heard, and sofar they seem to be as easy as lfr usually are, the LFR raids arent getting harder, its the ppl that play worse.

    now as for timeless vs new dungeons i think its quite an unfair question since its not the same dec team that makes dungeons as do timeless isle. rather ask yourself if you want an island with only vanityrewards, a dungeon and 4 less raid bosses. for me the answer is no.

  12. #112
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,684
    Generalizations are bad. It's the No.1 cause of panic and resistance to something new. (Generalizations est. 2004, World of Warcraft).
    "Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon?
    -people are just walking on an isle, killing mindless mobs,
    -they can get gear just after they find chests(don't even need to kill mobs),
    -new dungeon means boss fights, so people would be more prepared for a raid,
    -new dungeons would be overall better than Timeless Isle, which is grind fest(of course doing dungeons is also grinding, but not as much as Timeless Isle, people enjoy more doing dungeons),

    I just came to this conclusion after seeing many people in LFR with Timeless Isle gear, they were doing less than 50-60K DPS and they were just bad.

    I think that Blizzard was just lazy, they just made an isle with loot all over the place, which is pretty stupid for me.
    What's your opinion?

    This thread isn't LFR vs Flex, LFR vs Normal/Heroic.
    It's thread about gearing though timeless isle vs gearing in a new dungeons.
    -The "mindless" mobs enforce awareness mechanics more than typical heroic 5-mans do. Those Ordon mobs are brutally punishing if you stand in bad stuff.
    -You need to explore in order to find chests, and if a player is looking up a guide to finding them, then they're likely more organized and prepared than your typical I-know-nothing player.
    -Heroic 5-mans, in MoP's case, had PATHETIC awareness mechanics. They have to set the bar too low and it ends up teaching people nothing. The Ordon mobs on the isle - and the celestials, with their "don't stand in X" or "do stand in X" mechanics that actually kill people - are far better teaching tools.
    -That, my friend, is an OPINION. I enjoy the Timeless Isle a hundred times more than dungeons. At least on the isle, I can go at my own pace, rather than going through a linear, repetitive dungeon a million times.

    I disagree with you about everything and fully support the Timeless Isle's outdoor gearing mechanisms over dungeons.

  14. #114
    Crappy items for not much effort. Sounds fine.
    HoT Instances were too easy for their rewards and original cata heroics were too hard for their rewards. I dislike the entire valor point system from back then and prefere the new one (only for item upgrades), instead they should have added endboss epics in early cata, like in bc/wotlk + a dungeon set that makes it worth to not rely on random stats items like those from TI.

    For the new addon I hope they will use the difficult-mode they already have with normals/heroics/challenge modes for dungeons AND scenarios to provide an own "tier" of content we can take a bit serious instead of using it only for catchups. LFR should be no upgrade over heroic/challenge mode ilvl and the later one should be used to catch directly up close to flex ilvl. The whole problem for 5man content is how to upgrade it with a new tier - scrap all old instances or force people to rerun them every time? Well many things that have to be thought of but there certainly are better ways to handle it.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    new dungeons would be overall better than Timeless Isle, which is grind fest(of course doing dungeons is also grinding, but not as much as Timeless Isle, people enjoy more doing dungeons
    so, you came to this "conclusion". this is interesting because your whole post just reads like your opinion and sounds like you are one of those people who think that their opinion is always right, and always what ALL OTHERS want, too.

    you're wrong. timeless isle is great.

  16. #116
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    9,407
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    So for something to be an alternative to raiding, it must be developed by the same team that develops the raids? I'm sorry but that doesn't say anything other than "I don't like raiding and I don't want those who raid to have a good time!".
    For something to be an alternative it has to be designed as such. Nothing in the game is currently designed to be a meaningful or potential alternative to either lfr or flex. It has nothing to do with the team and everything to do with the streamlining of raid production and getting as much bang for the buck in terms of player participation in the most expensive content made in the game.

    Timeless Isle is an alternative to raiding, as is Scenarios. Both are alternative means of obtaining gear and valor that is still subpar to raiding but good enough to catch up.
    They are subpar and subsequently ARE NOT ALTERNATIVES TO RAIDING. ACtually even TI isn't apparently good enough for catch up as the dps requirements are not met with shitty 496 gear. They do not award as well as raids do ( as dungeons have in the past). They do not require structured group play (i.e Healers and tanks). They have less shelf life then even the EASIEST of dungeons. In no way shape or form at they an alternative especially compared to the alternative we had in the past with wotlk and cata dungeons. Those were alternatives and were being used by a fairly significant chunk of the population as an alternative so much so that when raids got hard in cataclysm people chose dungeons in favor of doing that shit. THEY WERE AN ALTERNATIVE. I know of almost no one who chooses scenarios over raids. That would be quite daft as scenarios pay out in junk random poorly itemized gear.

    Actually it was, you just didn't hear it among the circle of friends that you hung out with. Do you honestly think Blizzard would change the way they develop content based on a loud minority? They get loads of feedback directly from players that we do not see on the forums, because it's sent directly to Blizzard.
    No it was not a very popular complaint. It was certainly concentrated feedback but it was most certainly not remotely close to being universal. Theirs a difference. On the other hand I can say the "lot's to do" was sure as shit a huge complaint of people in 5.0 but I guess those were just entitled brats right?

    More choice is still more choice, it doesn't matter if you consider it to be more obnoxious grinding. Both Timeless Isle and Scenarios are further alternatives, whether you acknowledge that or not.
    I'm all for choice but the reality is we have less actual choice in mists then we did in cataclysm and in wrath WHEN PEOPLE WERE FORGOING TO CHOSE RAIDS EN MASSE FOR AN ACTUAL ALTERNATIVE. Something you don't see any more. TI hasn't made a dent in this because TI isn't actually an alternative. It's just a quick way to shove people into raiding ASAP and isn't even as good as catch up as you got in dungeons. Those dungeons, especially the 4.3 ones awarded you far better gear relative to what was in the raid.

    The only option you really had outside of raiding in Wrath was dungeons, in MoP you have Timeless Isle, dungeons, scenarios and pet battles. All of these are more casual friendly (with exception of dungeon which is the same) because they require less time and gives you more options of what to do and when
    These are all in effect non options because if they were good options then you'd probobablly do them instead of raiding. pet battles don't award gear. Scenarios are an RNG crap fest that often awards poorly itemized shit gear. TI we already went over. Basically NOTHING IN THIS GAME CURRENTLY serves as an alternative that rewards as well as RAIDS. All those options only lead to one inevitability and this game actually has less options at end game. Their is no alternative.


    Each of these has to be less rewarding, otherwise there would only be one choice to really go with, which isn't really a choice.
    Oh good you get it. Now just add raiding to mix and you understand why their really is only one choice to go with and why all the alternatives are not really alternatives. To be perfectly frank they may as well just hand you the gear from a vendor. 496 is such fucking garbage that it basically just meets the physical requirement for LFR (and apparently not even good enough for the dps requirement) and it may as well be last expansions gear. ALL BECAUSE BLIZZARD ISN'T ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN ALTERNATIVES. That's LIP SERVICE they tell you so they can focus on just making raids and get rid of anything that may have posed a challenge to raids. Everyone saying the current game has more alternatives is deluded and drinking the kool aid. The game had for more alternatives in the past when players WERE skipping raids and still progressing their characters. That's been removed and all that's happened is the "catch up" mechanism has been diluted across a handful of activities that don't really reward as well as either dungeons or raids did because it's part of some super goal to stream line content consumption and production. Ironically enough TI is an IMPROVEMENT to where we were in throne where "catch up" consisted of some mutilated half attempt to bring back tiered raid structure WHICH EVERYONE HATED and they dropped in 5.4 so god damn fast. Christ it was so stupid having to go back and do lfr and normal versions of those old raids just so I could eventually get to throne LFR while doing throne normal at the same fucking time. TI is sadly better but not that much better. it's fucking terrible really. Dungeons were actually better catch up. They were done quicker and at the same time you were doing them for catch up you were also farming valor for normal ilvl gear. They were also ridiculously streamlined from a player perspective. The developers lament on twitter that the current system is far to opaque and theirs isn't a GO HERE FOR GEAR button (well outside of lfr obviously) which is a mess they created when they decided to abandon valor and justice as rewards.


    I find it hilarious how you think that you can speak on behalf of all casuals, especially considering a lot of casuals raid. I consider myself a casual, as does our guild. We raid two times a week, three hours per time, aside from that I don't really log in much outside of a Scenerio every now and then
    Good for you. I don't speak for you nor would I presume to but that's because your not casual as much as you might delude yourself into thinking otherwise. I'm sure if Blood Legion or Method posted on this forum and said hey we're casual to right you'd all sit around and say oh yea good job cool story. The problem is people hi jack the casual name and then the developers think they are catering to casuals when they aren't in the fucking slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    ng.

    Blizzard doesn't like that design because people find it awfully grindy (mostly because you can see the entire path that lies ahead of you), they prefer to give you a chance to be rewarded every now and then. The feeling of not knowing if you will get loot or not, and then actually getting loot is in their eyes preferable. Whether or not that is better is something you will have to talk to them about.

    Really? So the system of repeating content ad nauseum with no fucking real end in sight determined WHOLLY by some shitty algorithim in the background (completely out of player control or influence) is better than at least having a clear determined goal. Bullshit and furthermore they still do it with PVP. Simple have pvp gear award players at the end of the match randomly and you can get rid of all the fucking vendors and points. You get a better chance if you win the match and put some obvious limits into the system (the same percentage done in lfr for example) Done. Finished. I think they know people would hate it but they ought to get the fucking clue that people HATE RNG. RNG isn't NECESSARY and it's not even enjoyable. It's terrible fucking stupid and regressive to continue to hold onto this BS. Especially when people have had and known better alternatives in the past. I'm all for loot coming from the dragon horde but it's not. It's coming from some program running in the background on a server somewhere that decided today was my lucky day. In that sense getting loot from the vendor was alot more about me getting loot from the dragon horde...
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-10-13 at 04:37 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #117
    Timeless Isle was a fine inclusion. It's not the Timeless Isle's fault that those players were pulling subpar DPS in LFR; you just had a spell of bad luck and got some subpar players in your raid.

    That's not to say I don't enjoy new instances, but who is to say the one instance would be any better at preparing somebody for a raid? (It likely wouldn't.)

  18. #118
    5 man dungeons are getting to be an archaic way of gearing up, especially for the latter patches of an expansion. Repeatedly running through ZG/ZA and HoT in LFD was beyond terrible. The possibility of future challenge modes is the only thing that may make it worthwhile to keep investing so many resources into dungeons. Otherwise, Blizzard should focus more on heroic scenarios and free-form, open world events and exploring.

  19. #119
    The Lightbringer nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    3,673
    Quote Originally Posted by Tucci View Post
    I can't believe how many people are below 50k dps. There are ACTUALLY people at 20 and 30k!! I even saw a mage at 19k. This isn't just bad players. This is bad, half afk, carry me please, I just fully geared in 2 hours from timeless isle, time to queue for SoO players that are hitting what lights up when they aren't backpedaling out of fire that DBM has to scream at them 17 times about. I don't think I've seen such bad dps ever. You have a minimum of 496 ilvl. There is no excuse...

    I'd say they also need to give tanks more incentive to queue. Something like 2k gold for staying and fully completing an LFR and/or extra VP or something. Can't believe how long SoO queue times are. Brand new wing, 1+hr queues.
    A solution I was thinking of that would take some work (and some social engineering to set up) would be Karma points. Basically an official version similar to what some addons tried to offer, where you could rate players up or down.

    It wouldn't really be able to have any consequence at first, but if done correctly (so set up for minimal abuse potential) it could have a pretty positive effect. Eventually, high karma can mean skipping queues and stuff, low karma means last in place for queues, and can be vote-kicked easily and swiftly.

  20. #120
    Herald of the Titans Emfg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    2,711
    It's sort of fun tbh. After I hit 90 on my priest, he'll be nearly decked out in full 496 gear except for weapons, a ring, a trinket and a necklace XD

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •