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  1. #101
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    Generalizations are bad. It's the No.1 cause of panic and resistance to something new. (Generalizations est. 2004, World of Warcraft).
    "Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon?
    -people are just walking on an isle, killing mindless mobs,
    -they can get gear just after they find chests(don't even need to kill mobs),
    -new dungeon means boss fights, so people would be more prepared for a raid,
    -new dungeons would be overall better than Timeless Isle, which is grind fest(of course doing dungeons is also grinding, but not as much as Timeless Isle, people enjoy more doing dungeons),

    I just came to this conclusion after seeing many people in LFR with Timeless Isle gear, they were doing less than 50-60K DPS and they were just bad.

    I think that Blizzard was just lazy, they just made an isle with loot all over the place, which is pretty stupid for me.
    What's your opinion?

    This thread isn't LFR vs Flex, LFR vs Normal/Heroic.
    It's thread about gearing though timeless isle vs gearing in a new dungeons.
    -The "mindless" mobs enforce awareness mechanics more than typical heroic 5-mans do. Those Ordon mobs are brutally punishing if you stand in bad stuff.
    -You need to explore in order to find chests, and if a player is looking up a guide to finding them, then they're likely more organized and prepared than your typical I-know-nothing player.
    -Heroic 5-mans, in MoP's case, had PATHETIC awareness mechanics. They have to set the bar too low and it ends up teaching people nothing. The Ordon mobs on the isle - and the celestials, with their "don't stand in X" or "do stand in X" mechanics that actually kill people - are far better teaching tools.
    -That, my friend, is an OPINION. I enjoy the Timeless Isle a hundred times more than dungeons. At least on the isle, I can go at my own pace, rather than going through a linear, repetitive dungeon a million times.

    I disagree with you about everything and fully support the Timeless Isle's outdoor gearing mechanisms over dungeons.

  3. #103
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    Crappy items for not much effort. Sounds fine.
    HoT Instances were too easy for their rewards and original cata heroics were too hard for their rewards. I dislike the entire valor point system from back then and prefere the new one (only for item upgrades), instead they should have added endboss epics in early cata, like in bc/wotlk + a dungeon set that makes it worth to not rely on random stats items like those from TI.

    For the new addon I hope they will use the difficult-mode they already have with normals/heroics/challenge modes for dungeons AND scenarios to provide an own "tier" of content we can take a bit serious instead of using it only for catchups. LFR should be no upgrade over heroic/challenge mode ilvl and the later one should be used to catch directly up close to flex ilvl. The whole problem for 5man content is how to upgrade it with a new tier - scrap all old instances or force people to rerun them every time? Well many things that have to be thought of but there certainly are better ways to handle it.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    new dungeons would be overall better than Timeless Isle, which is grind fest(of course doing dungeons is also grinding, but not as much as Timeless Isle, people enjoy more doing dungeons
    so, you came to this "conclusion". this is interesting because your whole post just reads like your opinion and sounds like you are one of those people who think that their opinion is always right, and always what ALL OTHERS want, too.

    you're wrong. timeless isle is great.

  5. #105
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    So for something to be an alternative to raiding, it must be developed by the same team that develops the raids? I'm sorry but that doesn't say anything other than "I don't like raiding and I don't want those who raid to have a good time!".
    For something to be an alternative it has to be designed as such. Nothing in the game is currently designed to be a meaningful or potential alternative to either lfr or flex. It has nothing to do with the team and everything to do with the streamlining of raid production and getting as much bang for the buck in terms of player participation in the most expensive content made in the game.

    Timeless Isle is an alternative to raiding, as is Scenarios. Both are alternative means of obtaining gear and valor that is still subpar to raiding but good enough to catch up.
    They are subpar and subsequently ARE NOT ALTERNATIVES TO RAIDING. ACtually even TI isn't apparently good enough for catch up as the dps requirements are not met with shitty 496 gear. They do not award as well as raids do ( as dungeons have in the past). They do not require structured group play (i.e Healers and tanks). They have less shelf life then even the EASIEST of dungeons. In no way shape or form at they an alternative especially compared to the alternative we had in the past with wotlk and cata dungeons. Those were alternatives and were being used by a fairly significant chunk of the population as an alternative so much so that when raids got hard in cataclysm people chose dungeons in favor of doing that shit. THEY WERE AN ALTERNATIVE. I know of almost no one who chooses scenarios over raids. That would be quite daft as scenarios pay out in junk random poorly itemized gear.

    Actually it was, you just didn't hear it among the circle of friends that you hung out with. Do you honestly think Blizzard would change the way they develop content based on a loud minority? They get loads of feedback directly from players that we do not see on the forums, because it's sent directly to Blizzard.
    No it was not a very popular complaint. It was certainly concentrated feedback but it was most certainly not remotely close to being universal. Theirs a difference. On the other hand I can say the "lot's to do" was sure as shit a huge complaint of people in 5.0 but I guess those were just entitled brats right?

    More choice is still more choice, it doesn't matter if you consider it to be more obnoxious grinding. Both Timeless Isle and Scenarios are further alternatives, whether you acknowledge that or not.
    I'm all for choice but the reality is we have less actual choice in mists then we did in cataclysm and in wrath WHEN PEOPLE WERE FORGOING TO CHOSE RAIDS EN MASSE FOR AN ACTUAL ALTERNATIVE. Something you don't see any more. TI hasn't made a dent in this because TI isn't actually an alternative. It's just a quick way to shove people into raiding ASAP and isn't even as good as catch up as you got in dungeons. Those dungeons, especially the 4.3 ones awarded you far better gear relative to what was in the raid.

    The only option you really had outside of raiding in Wrath was dungeons, in MoP you have Timeless Isle, dungeons, scenarios and pet battles. All of these are more casual friendly (with exception of dungeon which is the same) because they require less time and gives you more options of what to do and when
    These are all in effect non options because if they were good options then you'd probobablly do them instead of raiding. pet battles don't award gear. Scenarios are an RNG crap fest that often awards poorly itemized shit gear. TI we already went over. Basically NOTHING IN THIS GAME CURRENTLY serves as an alternative that rewards as well as RAIDS. All those options only lead to one inevitability and this game actually has less options at end game. Their is no alternative.


    Each of these has to be less rewarding, otherwise there would only be one choice to really go with, which isn't really a choice.
    Oh good you get it. Now just add raiding to mix and you understand why their really is only one choice to go with and why all the alternatives are not really alternatives. To be perfectly frank they may as well just hand you the gear from a vendor. 496 is such fucking garbage that it basically just meets the physical requirement for LFR (and apparently not even good enough for the dps requirement) and it may as well be last expansions gear. ALL BECAUSE BLIZZARD ISN'T ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN ALTERNATIVES. That's LIP SERVICE they tell you so they can focus on just making raids and get rid of anything that may have posed a challenge to raids. Everyone saying the current game has more alternatives is deluded and drinking the kool aid. The game had for more alternatives in the past when players WERE skipping raids and still progressing their characters. That's been removed and all that's happened is the "catch up" mechanism has been diluted across a handful of activities that don't really reward as well as either dungeons or raids did because it's part of some super goal to stream line content consumption and production. Ironically enough TI is an IMPROVEMENT to where we were in throne where "catch up" consisted of some mutilated half attempt to bring back tiered raid structure WHICH EVERYONE HATED and they dropped in 5.4 so god damn fast. Christ it was so stupid having to go back and do lfr and normal versions of those old raids just so I could eventually get to throne LFR while doing throne normal at the same fucking time. TI is sadly better but not that much better. it's fucking terrible really. Dungeons were actually better catch up. They were done quicker and at the same time you were doing them for catch up you were also farming valor for normal ilvl gear. They were also ridiculously streamlined from a player perspective. The developers lament on twitter that the current system is far to opaque and theirs isn't a GO HERE FOR GEAR button (well outside of lfr obviously) which is a mess they created when they decided to abandon valor and justice as rewards.


    I find it hilarious how you think that you can speak on behalf of all casuals, especially considering a lot of casuals raid. I consider myself a casual, as does our guild. We raid two times a week, three hours per time, aside from that I don't really log in much outside of a Scenerio every now and then
    Good for you. I don't speak for you nor would I presume to but that's because your not casual as much as you might delude yourself into thinking otherwise. I'm sure if Blood Legion or Method posted on this forum and said hey we're casual to right you'd all sit around and say oh yea good job cool story. The problem is people hi jack the casual name and then the developers think they are catering to casuals when they aren't in the fucking slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    ng.

    Blizzard doesn't like that design because people find it awfully grindy (mostly because you can see the entire path that lies ahead of you), they prefer to give you a chance to be rewarded every now and then. The feeling of not knowing if you will get loot or not, and then actually getting loot is in their eyes preferable. Whether or not that is better is something you will have to talk to them about.

    Really? So the system of repeating content ad nauseum with no fucking real end in sight determined WHOLLY by some shitty algorithim in the background (completely out of player control or influence) is better than at least having a clear determined goal. Bullshit and furthermore they still do it with PVP. Simple have pvp gear award players at the end of the match randomly and you can get rid of all the fucking vendors and points. You get a better chance if you win the match and put some obvious limits into the system (the same percentage done in lfr for example) Done. Finished. I think they know people would hate it but they ought to get the fucking clue that people HATE RNG. RNG isn't NECESSARY and it's not even enjoyable. It's terrible fucking stupid and regressive to continue to hold onto this BS. Especially when people have had and known better alternatives in the past. I'm all for loot coming from the dragon horde but it's not. It's coming from some program running in the background on a server somewhere that decided today was my lucky day. In that sense getting loot from the vendor was alot more about me getting loot from the dragon horde...
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-10-13 at 04:37 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #106
    Timeless Isle was a fine inclusion. It's not the Timeless Isle's fault that those players were pulling subpar DPS in LFR; you just had a spell of bad luck and got some subpar players in your raid.

    That's not to say I don't enjoy new instances, but who is to say the one instance would be any better at preparing somebody for a raid? (It likely wouldn't.)

  7. #107
    5 man dungeons are getting to be an archaic way of gearing up, especially for the latter patches of an expansion. Repeatedly running through ZG/ZA and HoT in LFD was beyond terrible. The possibility of future challenge modes is the only thing that may make it worthwhile to keep investing so many resources into dungeons. Otherwise, Blizzard should focus more on heroic scenarios and free-form, open world events and exploring.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Tucci View Post
    I can't believe how many people are below 50k dps. There are ACTUALLY people at 20 and 30k!! I even saw a mage at 19k. This isn't just bad players. This is bad, half afk, carry me please, I just fully geared in 2 hours from timeless isle, time to queue for SoO players that are hitting what lights up when they aren't backpedaling out of fire that DBM has to scream at them 17 times about. I don't think I've seen such bad dps ever. You have a minimum of 496 ilvl. There is no excuse...

    I'd say they also need to give tanks more incentive to queue. Something like 2k gold for staying and fully completing an LFR and/or extra VP or something. Can't believe how long SoO queue times are. Brand new wing, 1+hr queues.
    A solution I was thinking of that would take some work (and some social engineering to set up) would be Karma points. Basically an official version similar to what some addons tried to offer, where you could rate players up or down.

    It wouldn't really be able to have any consequence at first, but if done correctly (so set up for minimal abuse potential) it could have a pretty positive effect. Eventually, high karma can mean skipping queues and stuff, low karma means last in place for queues, and can be vote-kicked easily and swiftly.

  9. #109
    I am Murloc! Terahertz's Avatar
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    It's sort of fun tbh. After I hit 90 on my priest, he'll be nearly decked out in full 496 gear except for weapons, a ring, a trinket and a necklace XD

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    -new dungeon means boss fights, so people would be more prepared for a raid,
    This is the only point I agree with. WoW does very little to prepare new players to the difficulties and efforts a raider has to overcome to be successful.

    Although I think that the two aren't neccesarily the same issue. To be able to get gear on your own and with some adventure feeling is something I really like. They just should add something on top of that to prepare players. (And don't tell me LFR is just that. Because it really isn't.)

  11. #111
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetectiveJohnKimble View Post
    5 man dungeons are getting to be an archaic way of gearing up
    Why is it that 5 mans are archaic but raids aren't?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #112
    Timeless isle was a complete fail if it was intended to keep you busy for 6 months til next expac. If it was to mail your alts gear then it was a success. If it was to ensure SoO LFR was swamped with people in horrible gear then it was a success.

  13. #113
    I disagree with the OP completely. The new isle provides something that this game has been lacking for some time now: choice. A choice of whether to grind out the gear in dungeons/LFR or to explore and kill mobs on the island. My main raids, so there was nothing for me to gain even for my offsets on the isle, but I have enjoyed the experience out there as it is finally a step closer to the way these games used to be. MMORPG's used to be about exploring and discovering things to see and do. You might be rewarded with loot/gold or you might be punished by dying to a mob you shouldn't have challenged alone, but it used to be about more than sitting in one city and waiting for a queue to come up for your ez-mode dungeon and shiny armor.

    I would love if Blizz would add more dungeons as well, but having a choice is a good thing and the more choices a game offers, the more likely people are to log in and play. And despite the recent trend toward making people feel like they don't need to log in x amount of time a week, MMORPG's were always a timesink. The more developers try to get away from that, the more people will stop playing them. Don't like the new isle? Stay off it, nobody else is going to care and nobody is forcing you to go out there. But stop complaining when Blizz caters to someone other than YOU by adding choices for EVERYONE.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Why is it that 5 mans are archaic but raids aren't?
    Because raids aren't just for gearing up; completing them also serves as an accomplishment in itself. LFR gets a free pass because it's a way of seeing the story and environment content without the challenge, and a gear incentive follows on from that naturally.

    Dungeons don't have a 1:1 relationship with raids.

  15. #115
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Because raids aren't just for gearing up
    Let's take the gear out then. LFR is obviously for gearing up but okay fine. Let's take the gear out, just make them scale like challenge modes and you can have all the accomplishment in the universe.

    Dungeons were more than just about gearing up as well or at least gearing up as catch up for raids. Dungeons became an ALTERNATIVE that people were using as character progression.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #116
    Deleted
    Timeless isle, one of the best things that happened to wow, I love this model and hope it continues . Gathering charms EASY. Gathering gear EASY if you have been playing throughout. For new people it is tough as the mobs arent pushovers but that's where you get to form farm groups and do it that way (simple enough). Plus exploration and platforming, they added a lot of nice features and rare hunting similar to Gw2.

  17. #117
    People who do bad will always do bad. I like timeless for my alts and I don't need to grind through monotonous dungeons to be eligible for gear, I already have one raid toon.

  18. #118
    Deleted
    Basically any time blizzard allows people to get raid level gear without actually doing any kind of raid/dungeon beforehand you will get people who have no idea what they are doing in your raids, especially with the new LFR system

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    -The "mindless" mobs enforce awareness mechanics more than typical heroic 5-mans do. Those Ordon mobs are brutally punishing if you stand in bad stuff.
    Those mobs are just fully based on Arcade mechanics, which for me makes it even more boring. If I want some "complex" Arcade combat - I have Prince of Persia and other non-RPG games to answer my needs. And they have much more interesting combat from Action/Arcade point of view. If I play RPG, I want to have RPG-based challenge, incoming/dps vs my hps, proper resource management (not combo-points "management"), testing various interesting builds, building unusual gear-sets (not for "transmog", but for stats), etc., not to jump and dance avoiding 1-shots with latency in mind - which is completely NOT RPG-style.
    -Heroic 5-mans, in MoP's case, had PATHETIC awareness mechanics. They have to set the bar too low and it ends up teaching people nothing. The Ordon mobs on the isle - and the celestials, with their "don't stand in X" or "do stand in X" mechanics that actually kill people - are far better teaching tools.
    At the "ilvl" I did them (premade group - all around 410 ilvl, we couldn't queue), those were quite challenging. Tuning is just not there. Required ilvl is (was) way too high. At 430 ilvl I could solo some things in those dungeons already. I agree with you on this, but it is mostly because of lack of balance everywhere outside "heroic raids". It is either - stupid one-shots Arcade-style, or nothing.
    -That, my friend, is an OPINION. I enjoy the Timeless Isle a hundred times more than dungeons. At least on the isle, I can go at my own pace, rather than going through a linear, repetitive dungeon a million times.
    Gear, you get on island (496) versus top-end (572, not counting upgrades) shows a difference like between WotLK 5-men blues (200) and top-end WotLK gear (271-277). It is nothing but cheat to get into LFR for somewhat better junk. Pre-itemized 535 would be available through Badges/old Emblems/JP if it would be TBC/WotLK/Cata expansion. 553 would be available through current Emblems/VP.

    And to someone who said - people would skip all previous content, but itsn't it how they do right now? Getting junk from Isle, and go straight to SoO LFR?

    Anyway, Isle is pointless from all points of view. It was made an illusion of "catching up", but in fact, it is much inferior to systems we had before. Mark my words, current system will have heavy negative impact on normal/heroic raiding this tier. People aren't interested to grind through Isle, then LFR, then Flex, relying on so much RNG on each of those steps that it is just stupid, just to move anywhere. RNG, RNG, RNG, and screw emblems, JPs, VPs, systems which were made in place for a reason to not have everything tied to RNG, in current system RNG trumps them all, making JPs and VPs far beyond useless.

  20. #120
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    After 7 years of doing dungeons the isle is a good change to get all my alts raidready. Plus theres always youtube on how to improve moving out of shit, bossfights etc.
    There is really no need for more useless instances.

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