45 min LFR queue as DPS. Yes, it's about tanks...

[Slant]

1. Allow warlocks to tank. They've given us a glyph, we are half-way there.
2. Allow shamans to tank. They've given us shield and Rockbiter, we are half-way there.
3. Allow hunters to tank. Probably a bit harder due to indirect pet control, but would be awesome.

First, traditionally, that doesn't make any sense in RPGs. Especially Warlocks are one of the classic "squishy" glasscannons. Second, that is not addressing the problem at all. Even if you made every class able to tank with a unique spec, you won't have enough tanks. It's an attitude problem of the players and that is the one thing Blizzard cannot change, despite all their carrots and attempts to do so. Some people don't like the responsibility of 2 out of 25 making or breaking the fight for everyone. Some don't like the boredom tanking brings with you. And some simply prefer to play something more competitive, where you can match up yourself against others, so they play dps. And others are the guardian angels, who are happy to sit back and save every one else's life. They're the healers and pull their weight in any raid. It's not a setup problem, it's not a class problem. If anything, it's a design problem.

Blizzard has tried to address this by turning tanks into dps specs pretty much. That royallly pissed off both tanks (that prefered to be the defensive masterminds that they are) and dps (who are now threatened on the dps meter) as well as healers here and there when tanks now opt to go for offensive stats rather than defensive stats. And really, nobody but the top echolon of guilds knows how to employ tanks properly these days. So that whole idea was a huge dump.

Parallel to that they turned to boss design for a couple of years, making it more interesting. Well, kind of. Instead of just standing at the boss spamming whatever, because honestly, it doesn't matter except for the few crucial one shots that you have to time your CDs for, they're now standing at the boss spamming whatever and additionally taunt every X seconds. Yes, that added complexity to the game and totally is going to make this not boring at all. The problem is that I honestly couldn't think up much more in terms of mechanics that would keep the tank interested without having the risk of a wipe if something goes wrong. The tanks are the one spot in a raid where you can't really introduce RNG, design-wise. If RNG kills a dps, few will care as much as if it killed the tank. Imagine the outcry...

And part of the problem is that... to make it more interesting, you'll have to put more pressure on the tank. So either you bore people out of the class or you put so much responsibility on their shoulders that they prefer to not be the one to blame when shit hits the fan. Either way, you're going to lose a lot of people.

So what to do? How about you start treating good tanks with respect and don't take them for granted. For years and years people have abused tanks or ignored them. They felt undervalued. Everyone is raving about that Mage doing X dps while the tank did a superb job on the side tanking some of the hardest bosses around with stability and safety and nobody notices. That's an unthankful job, think about it and tell your next tank if he's done a good job. Chances are he'll return to tank another day.

As for Blizzard, they need to address this on a boss design standpoint. Meddling with the classes rarely fixed anything and only pissed the people off that prefered the class as it was. The difficulty is in finding interesting things for tanks to do to keep them interested week after week while at the same time not introducing mad rng factors that make them feel helpless. I can think up half a dozen things, but they're already in place in the game, so I'm out. You come up with something new, it's more difficult than it looks.

TL;DR:

People don't want to tank because of lack of recognition, boredom, too much pressure, no competition. Class fixes won't address those problems. Boss design may. Player attitude can't be programmed into the game, part of it has to come from the community.

[Mosotti]

The reason there are few tanks is so simple... and it has no solution. Tanking is hard. The difference between a tank and anyone else is that tanks can't fuck up or they will usually have to endure all the fucking shit in the world from those that... avoid tanking like the plague and complain there are no tanks. Can you take a shit dps toon, read nothing about the fights, ignore every mechanic that is left in LFR and get out of it victorious with your contribution to the raid being pure shit and you being dead or afk all the time? Absolutely. Can you do that shit as a healer? Of course you can, unless all the healers are in the same category, but usually there are 2-3 uberhealers that heal for those that suck. How about doing that as a tank? NO. If you fuck up, no one will tank for you, and all will spit on you

That's the main reason there are no tanks, especially in LFR. You can add 17 other tanking classes, it won't change.

[Monkeynuts]

I think I prefer the idea that they would just join the group to fill slots once somebody drops out, then when the queue finds an actual player to fill said slot, the NPC would then leave for the player to take over again.

Perhaps the NPC replacement could be permenant once a boss has died in an LFR - completely eliminating tanks / healers entering an non-fresh LFR run. Would have thought that would improve queue times as vital tanks/healers weren't being taken to fill already started runs, while DPS could still drop in and out of ongoing runs so as to not cause huge backlogs with all new DPS piling into the fresh runs.

[rhapso]

Tanking (LFR) isn't hard. The normal LFR guy doesn't want to learn mechanics beforehand, he wants to go in and have a good time.
As a tank you need to have a basic knowledge of the encounters and can crucially change the outcome of a boss encounter, while those 5 afk dps players don't really matter, it just takes longer, but you will most likely not get blamed as a bad/afk-dps, but you sure will as a bad tank doing the wrong stuff.

Sadly, most of the time you get blamed as tank even if you did just fine and that discourages ppl even more to even try tanking (Oh no, I don't want to get blamed for doing the right stuff!).

[Slant]

I think I prefer the idea that they would just join the group to fill slots once somebody drops out, then when the queue finds an actual player to fill said slot, the NPC would then leave for the player to take over again.

Do you have an idea how much effort it would take to programm one AI that is remotely useful in a raid environment with 23 douchebags? And that is what you're coding the AI for, not for the elite players knowing how shit works, but for randomly aggro pulling people, other tanks that drag the boss across the room to the one spot he shouldn't stand, bad healers, mistimed side-objectives of the boss fight etc. And despite all that, you'll have to manually insert code for every new boss into such an AI, telling the program how to tank it, etc.

Not gonna happen, trust me. And if it ever did, it'd probably result in dumbed down boss designs (even for LFR standards) so the AI can handle them, or a giant outcry on forums everytime a raid group fails.

[ItachiZaku]

2. Allow shamans to tank. They've given us shield and Rockbiter, we are half-way there.

I do tank. Quite a bit. On my ELEMENTAL SHAMAN. Why? Insane burst. And so, I learned that I cannot tank the big adds on Norushen without a tiny bit of notice, but otherwise... other than the actual boss, yeah. Same with my windwalker monk. Serious, as a very casual player, I end up being the #3 tank person a good portion of the time.

I have defensive CDs and I use them. I have ways of healing myself, I use them. I have pets and I use those as well. One thing I don't do, which I probably should, is "bring the mobs to the tanks" more than I do, but if i die, it's my own fault. We are told to "adds > boss" and I do, i don't wait for a tank to pick them up and with their being so many adds, I don't expect a tank to be able to hold my agro anyways.

The problem with your idea, though, is that those classes don't have tank specs and can't reliably tank a boss for extended periods of time. An enhance wouldn't have a shield equip and an elemental wouldn't have one with defensive stats. And more importantly, you would have to have them speced for it and QUE as tank. That is where the problem lies.

On top of that, LFR is NOT the environment to "learn" to tank, and most people are LFR heroes or people looking to fill gear spots/max VP quickly. So, your new tanks will fail hard since no one has patience in an LFR. One bad pull and the tank gets booted and then people bitch about their not being tanks and the wait being long. I have 2 tanks and I want to learn to Brewmaster tank, but I sure as shit won't LFR as a tank. I'll DPS and have loot set to tank spec.

[Lochton]

What was it the Blizzard developer team once said, was in a blue post somewhere.

"Just because we add more tanks, or additional speccs for tanking - doesn't mean we'll get more tanks".

In the end, it's right. Giving other classes tanking abilities doesn't mean they will go tank, besiddes, we have quite a lot of choice already. Well, we are missing a mail and cloth tank really (though, the talk of a cloth class tank shouldn't even be there. I know locks can feel tanky, but doesn't feel right - my opinion of course).

[Nobleshield]

This is it, exactly. When I join an LFR and see half of the DPS below 80k DPS; or 2-3 people running into mechanics at the start of the fight so they can go AFK; or 1-2 of the "healers" are DPS spec and only queued as healer to not wait in queue, I lose the desire to tank in LFR. I can just join OQueue and get all of the Flex modes done in the time it would take to complete one wing of LFR. Better chance at loot, less chance of bads/AFKs.

Tanks aren't the problem. It is lazy DPS who want epics for doing nothing.

I don't see this at all, but I do generally see impatient people that try to skirt anything and everything. Trash can be ignored even though someone will likely aggro it? Skip it, we're in a hurry. Someone AFK? Pull anyways. Don't bother to check if people know what to do in fights where it actually matters, this is LFR lol who needs tactics... wtf why did we wipe?? Plus the usual people who don't know how tanks actually tank now (haven't seen it but have read others saying things like a Druid being kicked out of LFR for wearing "DPS leather", or people who don't know that Paladin tanks use haste gear) and/or expect to just faceroll everything.

In short as I said before, it's a very toxic and poor mentality in LFR in general that makes me not want to tank because god forbid I make a mistake on a fight that I've read about and watched videos but haven't executed yet, or worse my co-tank has no idea what to do (a Lei Shen LFR springs to mind where the other tank had no idea to taunt for decapitates because some braindead DPS pulled the boss before I could tell them about it and I had to soak two. Not sure how I lived through that last one but maybe it hits like a wet noodle in LFR), or just have DPSers who go ahead and pull everything or pull the boss before people are ready simply because they figure "It's just LFR". That might work if you are just zerging MSV Part 1 at this point, but SOO is still essentially new content and can't really be facerolled, but the number of people who go into LFR thinking it'll be a cakewalk with zero tactics is astounding.

[Karragon]

I'm a tank, always have been right from vanilla but my own personal opinion is that I preferred the tanking model where tanks cared about threat and healers cared about keeping the tanks alive, I don't like this "active mitigation" model where now suddenly staying alive is my responsibility and threat is irrelevant. It has made me want to play tanks less...not that I'll ever do anything else!

That being said, I'd fixed the LFR queue by making LFR 40 man, same number of tanks/healers just more dps

[Deleted]

I tanked dungeons, lfr, raids on my pala, druid and now monk for severall years. Never had a real problem with lfr up until now. I'd love to get some heal gear for my third spec, but can't be bothered to go lfr when half the raid is afk or just too lazy to put some effort in it. Why should I then?

[Ashardis]

Or you could just low the item level requirement for more crucial roles such as tanks.

When's the last time you wiped because the tank was too undergeared?

I really wouldn't recommend that tbh, barely over 496 ilvl tanks are already a major pain in the ass in lfr, esp in SoO.
Add to that, that most of the 496 tanks are rushed alts where the player hasn't bothered to learn the class to well, hemmed, chanted or reforged, let alone know how to tank each encounter......
An experienced tank can pull of tanking on a low geared alt, but then they're more likely to make an effort.

Lowering the ilvl would only allow more super fail tanks in lfr.

[Monkeynuts]

Do you have an idea how much effort it would take to programm one AI that is remotely useful in a raid environment with 23 douchebags? And that is what you're coding the AI for, not for the elite players knowing how shit works, but for randomly aggro pulling people, other tanks that drag the boss across the room to the one spot he shouldn't stand, bad healers, mistimed side-objectives of the boss fight etc. And despite all that, you'll have to manually insert code for every new boss into such an AI, telling the program how to tank it, etc.

Not gonna happen, trust me. And if it ever did, it'd probably result in dumbed down boss designs (even for LFR standards) so the AI can handle them, or a giant outcry on forums everytime a raid group fails.

Everything is already massively dumbed down for LFR; entire mechanics removed or rendered totally irrelevant, why not make aggro completely irrelevant too? NPC tank joins, constantly taunts everything that isn't attacking the other tank with unlimited agro. I'm not saying it would be easy by any stretch to implement, but does anyone really do LFR for anything other than a chance at loot? Players can always learn to work around the NPC's, at least they have a fixed strat to work around rather than getting a different tank that does each boss differently (or plain wrongly) every single time; hell even if it isn't perfect I'd happily settle for being able to struggle through some stuff, or even get some decent pulls in, rather than literally having to sit on my hands for 20 mins - 1 hour waiting for a 2nd tank or another healer to join.

[khalltusk]

I'm a tank, always have been right from vanilla but my own personal opinion is that I preferred the tanking model where tanks cared about threat and healers cared about keeping the tanks alive, I don't like this "active mitigation" model where now suddenly staying alive is my responsibility and threat is irrelevant. It has made me want to play tanks less...not that I'll ever do anything else!

That being said, I'd fixed the LFR queue by making LFR 40 man, same number of tanks/healers just more dps

It is an interesting idea, but I can see two flaws with it.

Spell effects in the game make 25man laggy for a fair few people Imagine 40man being worse! Also you would have to nerf the damage recieved in 40man or increase the number of healers to cover the other 15 people another 3/4 healers should do the trick.

[furydeath]

Yep I love waiting 45+ min's only to get on the last boss fail.

Side note behold the rarest sight ever in WoW!!!

[khalltusk]

Yep I love waiting 45+ min's only to get on the last boss fail.

Side note behold the rarest sight ever in WoW!!!

Has that ever happened? XD

[Ham on Rye]

Understand that solving tanks problem is easier said than done (please save your breath trying to explain it to me, I'm with you on this one), but I still believe that Blizzard needs to:

1. Allow warlocks to tank. They've given us a glyph, we are half-way there.
2. Allow shamans to tank. They've given us shield and Rockbiter, we are half-way there.
3. Allow hunters to tank. Probably a bit harder due to indirect pet control, but would be awesome.

The only way to "solve the problem" is generate more interest for people to tank. That can be achieved through letting us explore one of our old dusty classes in a new capacity.

Making three more classes able to tank isn't going to generate more interest in tanking. People who want to tank already tank. People who don't, don't. The amount of people who will decide to tank who never have before just because they can do it on a different class is minimal.

[Deleted]

As a tank you cant get carried by the group like DPS can, you actually need to know what to do, and you cant auto attack and AFK. So most people chose the easier path.

As for me i dont like wiping because half of the DPS are either AFK auto attacking or are simply bad and put out miserable numbers, dont move out of stuff etc. so i dont bother doing LFR at all.

[Karragon]

It is an interesting idea, but I can see two flaws with it.

Spell effects in the game make 25man laggy for a fair few people Imagine 40man being worse! Also you would have to nerf the damage recieved in 40man or increase the number of healers to cover the other 15 people another 3/4 healers should do the trick.

I've seen a lot about this 25man lag and perhaps I'm just being stupid but I don't ever remember it being a problem in 40mans, nor have I ever seen it. Are things just "more sparkly" than they used to be? Or is there something else at work.

I did consider the extra healers/more problem but we also have a shortage of healers, perhaps not as bad as tanks but bad enough so I think a damage nerf rather than require more healers would be preferable.

[khalltusk]

I've seen a lot about this 25man lag and perhaps I'm just being stupid but I don't ever remember it being a problem in 40mans, nor have I ever seen it. Are things just "more sparkly" than they used to be? Or is there something else at work.

I did consider the extra healers/more problem but we also have a shortage of healers, perhaps not as bad as tanks but bad enough so I think a damage nerf rather than require more healers would be preferable.

Its down to spell effects going through the roof. Look at any vanilla fight and there really are not that many spell effects going off. Since then the spell effects have multiplied and there are so many from the boss adds and the players that it would cause issues. So they would have to tone that down or at least make it so its less intensive in some way.

If we increased it to 40man I could see a damage nerf or at least players inside lfr are given special bandages that do a fair amount of healing to them selves and has half the cast time of normal bandages. Just so I can laugh when DPS are using bandages again! Good old vanilla.

[Binks]

I would gladly tank or heal if I could, thing is, I love my mage and I have put so many hours unto it that I cant just leave it :/