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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Give all classes all 3 roles. That way people can play what class they love and also play the role they love.
    Not easy to do and most games don't do this if anything for immersion and balance reasons. But at least two roles per class will let you switch things up, fulfill two roles for your party (which makes you twice as valuable), and fulfill in-demand roles for queues.

  2. #22
    i don't want shamans, pets and others to be a viable raid tanks in normal\heroic raids, but in lfr? why not? the problem is, how to balance them?

  3. #23
    I don't think the problem is a lack of people who tank; the issue is the majority of those that do tank can't be bothered to go near tanking LFR because there's no incentive worth the hassle. They may tank for guildies, or flex, or normals but they'll just go DPS/heals if they want to go near LFR. I know I wouldn't tank any LFR other than MSV currently, unless some other guildie/friend fills the 2nd tank spot. There's just too much chance of being paired with some clueless idiot who doesn't know tactics/can't play; maybe if you could solo tank LFR with an NPC as the second tank then I'd consider it.

    Adding more classes that can tank won't fix the fact that a lot of tanks just won't queue in tank spec for LFR - the amount of effort/hassle just doesn't break even with the rewards. Having a faster queue/fail bags isn't good enough incentive.

  4. #24
    The Patient Aranoch's Avatar
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    Adding more tank classes won't help.

    Tanking and healing is "harder" and requires a lot more focus and insight than /afk dpsing in LFR. The dps bar is set so low in LFR and you can basically have 5/25 people AFK their way to a full 528 set by just being resilient in the queues. However, you can't do that as a tank. Hence, less people play tanks, people are lazy.

    If only 1 class could tank, then yes, but right now we have 5/11. And 3 of which can perform 2 roles (at least in LFR) in exactly the same gear as they dps (5 if you swap weapons/shields and the odd 2h<->1h lol). So all those warriors, all those DKs, all those ferals... windwalkers....ret paladins...you get where i'm going? They all could tank if they wanted to and have <1min queues. All they need is a stance/form/presence change and a shield in some cases (and ofc brains, the ability to cope with very basic mmo mechanics etc). People don't want to tank because it's labourious and exposes your skills in another way than dps, you don't have 17 people to hide behind.

    I recognise the problem but believe me, it has nothing to do with N of tanking classes.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Nerf boss health by 40% in LFR and I'll start tanking it. It wastes too much time for laughable reward right now, I can run easily run a flex wing in less than half the time for better loot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
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  6. #26
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    The problem isn't tanks (and interestingly enough when I queue for LFR I still have about 20-30 minute wait as a tank, it's healers that are in demand for LFR bro, not tanks), it's that tanking is a thankless job, especially in LFR. Not only are you expected to already know the ins and outs of what is basically brand new content still but you have to rely on LFRers to know what to do. I can't count how many times I've had my co-tank be like "first time here wat do i do" and I want to just strangle them, because I know it's LFR but really? I know I'm the minority but I make sure to read some stuff on the fight beforehand so I know what to expect not just going in blind, and especially on somewhat-challenging content like this it actually matters as you can't exactly trivialize mechanics yet that I've seen. I've actually been going into LFRs as DPS to A) See fights I haven't seen yet with less pressure and B) To see how the "other half" lives, as it were and the number of fail tanks I've seen or the raid group just tearing an inexperienced tank a new one is beyond ridiculous and reminds me almost all the time why I can never escape tanking, because it's so painful watching others do it.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndra View Post
    so you want to homogenize classes even more by adding tank specs for a few classes.. ignoring two pure classes rogues and mages. did it occur to you that people playing certain classes love them BECAUSE they cant tank?
    What the hell are you talking about? How can you like something for not having a certain thing. Adding a fourth spec changes nothing for anyone that only enjoys DPS as it doesn't take anything away.

    And I agree with the OP, Warlocks and Shamans should be viable tanks. I'd definitely roll my Warlock main as tank if that was possible.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mgs View Post
    All right my friends, I'm sure some of you will say that everything is fine, roll a tank, or make some other highly useful remark, but I came here to share my thoughts on what I believe should be Blizzard's priority #1 problem to solve. And no, it's not adding more vanity pets or mounts to the game.
    Well you were so close to come up with a good suggestion when you mentioned the goodies.
    More pets/vanity-items in the bags, and more bags overall.
    Despite you having long queues there's often not any bag up, and the bag is honestly not worth it at all. Specially not the first weeks. So instead of coming up with advanced answers that won't help a damn, because most people don't want to tank. You can't afk or slack much as that.
    It's really not a question about which classes that can tank or not. There's a few that find the thought awesome, but it's far and few. they just like it to play with, not to actually begin to tank.
    And really. Considered that amount of huntards that can't turn off pet-aggro/aspect, you really think it's a good idea to have them actually tank? >.>

    So yeah. Make the goodiebag pop up much faster and frequently, and have a lot extra in it, and you will see more tanks. If it's the tank-quality you want is another question though.
    If there's a demand for tanks and you've just completed one, you often can't get a new goodiebag right away. You have to wait a bit, because blizzard apparently think it's too rewarding getting 2 bags in row :P
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by mgs View Post
    All right my friends, I'm sure some of you will say that everything is fine, roll a tank, or make some other highly useful remark, but I came here to share my thoughts on what I believe should be Blizzard's priority #1 problem to solve. And no, it's not adding more vanity pets or mounts to the game.

    I've spent 45 mins in LFR queue last night as DPS. Then I got in, just to see a demoralized raid with 1 tank and a bunch of peeps jumping around on their mounts, one of whom was sharing a heart-breaking story about how he had to save 75k to buy an engineering rocket, and how he bought it in the end. Touching, truly.

    I've played this game for many years and I'm a big fan of Blizzard-drug, generally.

    I have 5 tanks and a bunch of other chars I like to casually play; I'm not a hardcore raider, in case it matters. I like LFR, when it's playable. I don't listen to idiots too much and zone out, doing my job, which I do very well.

    Understand that solving tanks problem is easier said than done (please save your breath trying to explain it to me, I'm with you on this one), but I still believe that Blizzard needs to:

    1. Allow warlocks to tank. They've given us a glyph, we are half-way there.
    2. Allow shamans to tank. They've given us shield and Rockbiter, we are half-way there.
    3. Allow hunters to tank. Probably a bit harder due to indirect pet control, but would be awesome.

    The only way to "solve the problem" is generate more interest for people to tank. That can be achieved through letting us explore one of our old dusty classes in a new capacity.

    I also believe the above would be easier to do for Blizz than invent a completely new class, and smarter in terms of player-base retention than ignoring the problem fully.

    Discuss if you want, I'm going to grab a coffee.
    The problem is not which classes can tank, it's making players WANT to tank LFR.

    LFR can be an annoying experience, more so if you are a tank. I find the vile treatment toward the tanks whenever there is a wipe to be why no one wants to do it. It's also more pressure then any other role in LFR. You are the two people up front that everyone is watching. If you are slow on your swap, you'll hear about it. If you don't have the boss in perfect position you'll be told. And if this was it there wouldn't be a problem but then you generally have 10 of the 25 people berating you and not giving you any slack that you are learning a new fight. They curse and treat you like skum. They'll also vote you off in a heartbeat.

    That's assuming it's the tanks fault to begin with. Sometimes the blame just gets dumped on the tank no matter what. My wife got kicked from a LFR Megara because some healer kept dispelling fire into the raids. Let that one sink in and how little it makes sense... because that is why 'good' tanks ate LFR and most 'mediocre' tanks will just stick out the extra queue for dps.

    Expect it to get worse with more people finding flex raiding to be superior to LFR.
    Last edited by Orcbert; 2013-10-14 at 01:11 AM.

  10. #30
    I think Blizzard messed up a long time ago with their tank/healer/dps ratio. I like the 2 tanks in 10 man, but I think there should be 5 in 25 mans. I think the ratio in 5 mans, 10 mans, and 25 mans should be the same. I think having more tanks in LFR would actually make it easier. I think requiring more tanks and making tanking a more integral part of the game would be good.

    The bottom line is that the intricacies of tanking are missed on the masses. Most people cant even DPS correctly and tanking is more difficult. There's no tank-o-meter on recount and tanks never get the glory. It's a thankless job and Blizzard has required that too few people actually tank.

    If anything Blizzard should offer incentives for sticking around and finishing instances. Whether it's bonus rolls or extra gold.

  11. #31
    Might be an option to allow tanks, to set their loot to DPS. Tanks are usually the ones who get their complete gear @ first. There is no point for any MT in a decent raid guild to queue as a tank role, cause tanks have the least competition when it comes to gear. And even tanks want some Off-Specc gear. So why should one bother to queue as a tank? U dont get anything that u want/need. You wont get any DPS gear in your guild raids (unless your plate DPS are allready geared), the best source for that is lfr/flex, which is tied to your specc.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharli View Post
    The problem mgs, it's the players, not blizzard.

    example number 1.

    Death Knights
    All specs was able to tank

    that was scrapped because people refused to tank, even in the tanking spec(frost) mostly because the dps was way to good.

    Example number 2.
    Monks, blizzarad clearly wanted people do go tanks with these, but the high curve of learning on a monk is a complete clusster end for a new player to learn to tank with a monk, in most peoples heads.(i still have problem sometimes, because the healers I get through out the LFR's /dungeons don't understand how a brewmaster tank works most of the time)
    Blood was still far superior to Frost before the change. Blood had a ton of self-healing that Frost didn't get, considering most Frost Tank DK's didn't know how to use Death Strike instead of Obliterate. On top of that Blood had the extra Parry, Stamina, and Expertise, on top of Mark of Blood, Bloodworms, Heart Strike, Rune Tap, etc etc. Frost had extra armor, a talent that could give a boost to resists which was only useful on a very small handful of fights, and dual wielding which served no purpose that was any kind of beneficial tool to tanking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    Well you were so close to come up with a good suggestion when you mentioned the goodies.
    More pets/vanity-items in the bags, and more bags overall.
    Despite you having long queues there's often not any bag up, and the bag is honestly not worth it at all. Specially not the first weeks. So instead of coming up with advanced answers that won't help a damn, because most people don't want to tank. You can't afk or slack much as that.
    It's really not a question about which classes that can tank or not. There's a few that find the thought awesome, but it's far and few. they just like it to play with, not to actually begin to tank.
    And really. Considered that amount of huntards that can't turn off pet-aggro/aspect, you really think it's a good idea to have them actually tank? >.>

    So yeah. Make the goodiebag pop up much faster and frequently, and have a lot extra in it, and you will see more tanks. If it's the tank-quality you want is another question though.
    If there's a demand for tanks and you've just completed one, you often can't get a new goodiebag right away. You have to wait a bit, because blizzard apparently think it's too rewarding getting 2 bags in row :P
    I've done up to 3-4 wings in a row, just because I wanted the bag, didn't get anything even halfway decent out of them, mostly healing flasks/potions, so I stopped doing it. If the bag rewards were better than a handful of gold, a flask/potion I am never going to use, and the super low chance at a pet or mount, I'd be more inclined to queue for LFR's even after doing it the first time.

  13. #33
    If I could warlock tank i'd be f*cking all over that
    With Fire and Brimstone I light my path.
    With Pain and Shadow I smite my foes.
    With Demon and Fel I raise my armies.
    I AM WARLOCK, THE END OF YOU ALL.

  14. #34
    I have a tank capable of clearing through heroic content. I don't take it to LFR because LFR heroes like to throw insults, EVERYTHING is the tanks fault and I cba taking that kind of abuse. 'You're pulling too fast' 'you're pulling too slow' 'randomguyx ninja pulled and died, kick the tank' 'the healers are afk, kick the tank'.

    It's just not worth it.
    Redsparowe#2548 <Crayola Inc>, Lightbringer EU

  15. #35
    Have never, will never Tank LFR. I'm perfectly fine with a 45 min que (sometimes an hour) as DPS over dealing with the shit LFR tanks have to go through. If I really want a short que then I throw on my healing gear with no enchants or gems, change spec for the day and normally sit around middle of the road to the top half of healing.

  16. #36
    Brewmaster Murderdoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    ikr tanks in LFR are really something

    Tanking isn't even hard lol
    Its not hard skill wise. Its hard to deal with mentally.

    I dont tank LFR anymore. I would rather chuck on my undergeared DPS stuff and wait 30-40 minutes while farming mats. I dont tank anymore because majority of DPS dont appreciate what we have to put up with on an average LFR run, theyve just waited 30 minutes and want everything to happen now, have zero patience and often cause their run to become slow.

    Im fed up with being told GOGOGOGO, when Im talking to the off tank explaining him how to do things because hes never seen the fight, to have a stupid DPS pull for me.

    Im fed up with people taunting all the council together in ToT because they want to cleave it down, only for Sul to not die and wipe us because people are low on DPS and noone is killing the add.

    Im fed up with being in the top 10 DPS as a tank.

    If you want faster queues as DPS, try treating your tanks and healers with some courtesy and respect and try not to make their lives hell and they might tank another one.

    In the meantime, enjoy your 40 minute queues. Ill be tanking Flex, which is easier, quicker and better rewards.

  17. #37
    Yea I wont tank lfr until i completely outgear it and content is semi old. Ive seen the abuse tanks take. Hell no do i want to deal with that!

  18. #38
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    A practical solution would be to alter LFR bosses and adds to not having to be tanked. Make them follow certain paths or just stand there just like they would if there was a tank. From a dps/healer pov there would barely be a difference at all. Tanks could still queue as dps and set their loot to their tanking spec if they want to get geared. Maybe require 1 less healer too while they are at it just to make queues even faster.

    Of course this would never happen, but it would make everything so so much faster.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The problem isn't tanks (and interestingly enough when I queue for LFR I still have about 20-30 minute wait as a tank, it's healers that are in demand for LFR bro, not tanks), it's that tanking is a thankless job, especially in LFR. Not only are you expected to already know the ins and outs of what is basically brand new content still but you have to rely on LFRers to know what to do. I can't count how many times I've had my co-tank be like "first time here wat do i do" and I want to just strangle them, because I know it's LFR but really? I know I'm the minority but I make sure to read some stuff on the fight beforehand so I know what to expect not just going in blind, and especially on somewhat-challenging content like this it actually matters as you can't exactly trivialize mechanics yet that I've seen. I've actually been going into LFRs as DPS to A) See fights I haven't seen yet with less pressure and B) To see how the "other half" lives, as it were and the number of fail tanks I've seen or the raid group just tearing an inexperienced tank a new one is beyond ridiculous and reminds me almost all the time why I can never escape tanking, because it's so painful watching others do it.
    But realistically, you shouldn't need to read up on it and know the fight. It's LFR, it's suppose to be the next step after heroics. Blizzard should provide easy to spot tank mechanics like they do now for the DPS. It should be a natural progression from heroics and single tanking to raiding with two tanks, but it's not.
    to: preposition; used as a function word to indicate position, connection, extent, relation ~ too: adverb; also, very, excessively, so

  20. #40
    Herald of the Titans
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    LFR tanking is too demanding (in terms of the casual abuse players will have to put up with, more than actual difficulty) for the rewards it offers. So there is that on the one hand.

    On the other hand, at least half the tanks in LFR seem to have some kind of malignant personality disorder that results in them leaving as soon as they join, or leaving after one pull, or going afk during the fight, or whatever.

    So there is that on the other hand.

    Maybe, if you choose an in-demand role (tank and occasionally healer), you should have a significant chance of earning Flex and Normal drops.

    Say, a 50% chance that any drop you receive (for your first kill of the boss that week) will be Flex, and a 25% chance it will be Normal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Promark View Post
    But realistically, you shouldn't need to read up on it and know the fight. It's LFR, it's suppose to be the next step after heroics. Blizzard should provide easy to spot tank mechanics like they do now for the DPS. It should be a natural progression from heroics and single tanking to raiding with two tanks, but it's not.
    Although I think it's best if tanks know the fights beforehand, I would never fault a tank for doing a fight "cold" in LFR if that's how that player enjoys playing the game. At least not as long as he seemed to get better after one or two pulls.

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