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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Other tanks and healers are the problem just as much. It's not the people that are the problem, not their roles.

    A douchebag is a douchebag no matter what set of buttons he's supposed to be pressing.
    You do have a point and awful inexperienced tanks do drive away the very few geared "boosting" dps just like awful dps drive away proper tanks and healers. But like Scinder mentioned, the difference is huge if you're a dps who can step up and deal 600k dps with 10 determination stacks or a tank/healer who can't do anything else than watch the berserk timer creep closer and closer.

    How well a player tanks has a huge difference in how much damage a raid group can dish out (dark shaman positioning for example) but if the damage dealers aren't competent enough to take advantage of that you're just a brick wall who NPCs prefer killing.

    Even the dedicated LFR heroes would realize that they either have to buck up or give up PVE completely if Flex and LFR would start sharing lockouts for drops. A 25man raid full of clowns yelling out profanities, oh the humanity...
    Last edited by Strafir; 2013-10-17 at 05:37 PM.

  2. #382
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I told my raid lead right off..........I am not watching videos because I forget it within 5 minutes same with Dungeon Journal, you want me to learn it put me in there and I will have it memorized in 1 to 2 times doing it.
    I don't necessarily agree with this either - you shouldn't ever go into a fight totally blind (outside of say if you are testing it on the PTR) but DJ/Videos should be supplementary. It shouldn't necessarily be required for LFR, or even for the typical (read: not "fast run") Flex raids. Normal and Heroic are IMO a different animal and you should make sure you are prepared. Nothing pisses me off like normal raiders just showing up and being expected to be told "stack on green; if you get <debuff> then run out" and do just that and only that, or have no idea about certain mechanics (perfect anecdote: last night we almost killed Galakras except when I said to stack up, people stacked up in a line and when I said if you get the fireball move out, people ran to the sides. IMO this is basic mechanics that people should know, not just expect to be told exactly what to do. And this was normal mode raiders in a almost all-guild 10M group, not a pug).

    The problem in LFR in general is that people don't care to try or even know anything about the encounter because the pervasive mentality is that it's LFR so mechanics don't matter; the issue is that in most cases mechanics DO matter. LFR is much more forgiving but there are still berserk timers, and there can still be oneshot mechanics (see Durumu and Elegon, among others). If everyone puts forth minimal effort, you won't defeat the encounter, but because "it's just LFR" is the mindset it usually means that you get folks expecting zero mechanics or, worse, mechanics they can stand in and be healed through.

    This isn't limited to DPS, but it's more common with DPS. Once in a while lately I've had quasi-AFK healers just standing there doing nothing, and my pet peeve is a co-tank who immediately says they've never been here (understandable) and have no idea of what they need to do (not so understandable). This is personally annoying because I don't queue as a tank unless I'm absolutely sure that I know what is going on (I didn't do LFR Durumu and co. for over a month because I wasn't sure what was actually going on in the fight and didn't want to cause a wipe); I don't mind explaining to a new tank but I would expect at least some tiny bit of looking at something before queuing, even if it's just the barest of knowledge (e.g. I don't really asking the second tank on Galakras "Do you want adds or towers?" and getting the reply be "no clue never been here b4"; I understand not watching a few videos or reading Icy Veins like I do, but don't go into something blind and expect to trial and error it).
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-10-17 at 05:41 PM.
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  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Another issue is that now you can queue up as a healer or as a dps with a healer and get a good fast queue while setting yourself to get tank gear so there is no reason to tank LFR when you can get the rewards of tanking without the hassle.
    Learning to tank is harder than getting tank gear (despite all the trolls saying "you can know everything there is to know about tanking in 30 minutes lol"), so if you are planning to tank real content, you might as well be tanking LFR too.

  4. #384
    I personally would love if queueing as a tank during a CTA gave me (in addition to the bag) a token that I could transfer to an alt for a free jump to the front of the queue as dps.

    The end result would be me tanking four or five times a week on my main (rather than zero). It also couldn't be abused, because the system would self-balance - only during a tank CTA would the tokens be issued. As of now, I don't tank because by and large it's easier to farm while I wait for the queue to pop and be #1 or #2 on the DPS charts to make the run a little faster.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Alsierus View Post
    I personally would love if queueing as a tank during a CTA gave me (in addition to the bag) a token that I could transfer to an alt for a free jump to the front of the queue as dps.

    The end result would be me tanking four or five times a week on my main (rather than zero). It also couldn't be abused, because the system would self-balance - only during a tank CTA would the tokens be issued. As of now, I don't tank because by and large it's easier to farm while I wait for the queue to pop and be #1 or #2 on the DPS charts to make the run a little faster.
    That's actually not a terrible idea.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Masternewt View Post
    Dear OP,

    The lack of tanks in LFR isn't because there aren't enough classes that can tank. It's because tanks don't want to do LFR. LFR is a terrible, terrible place with terrible, terrible players who act out as terrible, terrible people. I'm a tank. If I need to do LFR for some reason, I queue as DPS. I'd queue as DPS even if the queue time for DPS was 7 hours and for tanks 7 seconds.
    Agree totally with this and share the sentiment lol
    Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men: Jean Rostand. Yeah, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour!.
    Classic: "The tank is the driver, the healer is the fuel, and the DPS are the kids sitting in the back seat screaming and asking if they're there yet."
    Irony >> "do they even realize that having a state religion IS THE REASON WE LEFT BRITTEN? god these people are idiots"

  7. #387
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    At least half the DPS are bad in a given LFR run. At least half the Healers are bad in a given LFR run. At least half the Tanks are bad in a given LFR run.

    Just because Healers and Tanks might not be as large a number in your run, doesn't mean they're not dumb by the same ratio as the DPS.

    I've been in plenty of runs where only one tank knows wtf he's doing and makes up for the other, or screams at the other tank how bad he is until one of them leaves.

    Sure, there are a lot of DPS in LFR and the majority of them are stupid. But the same holds true for Tanks and Healers as well.
    I've never disagreed with you that there are weak or just flat out incompetent players of all roles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Again, it's the people that are stupid, not the classes/roles.

    I agree but there are far, far more dps than any other role in LFR. You can make up for one lacking tank or a couple healers. There's no covering up or fixing 12-14 bad dps.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alsierus View Post
    I personally would love if queueing as a tank during a CTA gave me (in addition to the bag) a token that I could transfer to an alt for a free jump to the front of the queue as dps.
    Hmm. This is a fairly awesome idea. Someone should share it on the Blizzard forums.

  9. #389
    TLR - People are jerks.

    Here is my two cents on the matter.

    I ran ToT on LFR yesterday, just looking for a shield upgrade for my tank. The other tank was new, did not know the fights, but was very polite and we talked before each boss pull. We do the first and second boss in one pull, no problems, no deaths.

    Next we come to Lei Shein. We have one miscommunication on moving the boss, and raid damage results in a wipe.

    Cue the ensuing verbal harrasment that reads something like:

    "OMFG TANKS WTF WTF!!!"

    "Horrible tanks"

    "Effin' tanks make it harder for the rest of us"

    And so on, and so forth. The first tank and I chat in private, we discuss the issue. We pull again.

    This time he's positioned well, but for some reason a number of DPS and healers don't move to their pre-assigned groups, which I announced before both pulls, and they die in the second phase. Cue again the complaining, it sounds very similar to the first, though this time we had no fault in the matter.

    We rez, I announce groups for a third time, and after the pull, six dps and two healers still manage to die in the second phase because they don't move.

    We power through, and the remaining DPS is sufficient to beat the enrage timer.

    The other tank tells me he is never tanking again, that he hates being yelled at. I agree, it sucks, especially by a mass of people who can individually completely slack off and still move through. I'll keep tanking, but it's because I'm mainly moving into flex and normal with the guild and LFR is a good way to help my bad luck shield RNG.

    The simple matter is that there are more than enough tank classes, and Blizzard implementing two additional classes in DKs and Monks was a great move, but as long as you have 23/25 people in a raid able and willing to dump all over the tank, the emotional toll is going to keep out most people who can just as easily roll a DPS, wait in a long que, but not deal with the garbage that I went through last night.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Winduu View Post
    TLR - People are jerks.

    Here is my two cents on the matter.

    I ran ToT on LFR yesterday, just looking for a shield upgrade for my tank. The other tank was new, did not know the fights, but was very polite and we talked before each boss pull. We do the first and second boss in one pull, no problems, no deaths.

    Next we come to Lei Shein. We have one miscommunication on moving the boss, and raid damage results in a wipe.

    Cue the ensuing verbal harrasment that reads something like:

    "OMFG TANKS WTF WTF!!!"

    "Horrible tanks"

    "Effin' tanks make it harder for the rest of us"

    And so on, and so forth. The first tank and I chat in private, we discuss the issue. We pull again.

    This time he's positioned well, but for some reason a number of DPS and healers don't move to their pre-assigned groups, which I announced before both pulls, and they die in the second phase. Cue again the complaining, it sounds very similar to the first, though this time we had no fault in the matter.

    We rez, I announce groups for a third time, and after the pull, six dps and two healers still manage to die in the second phase because they don't move.

    We power through, and the remaining DPS is sufficient to beat the enrage timer.

    The other tank tells me he is never tanking again, that he hates being yelled at. I agree, it sucks, especially by a mass of people who can individually completely slack off and still move through. I'll keep tanking, but it's because I'm mainly moving into flex and normal with the guild and LFR is a good way to help my bad luck shield RNG.

    The simple matter is that there are more than enough tank classes, and Blizzard implementing two additional classes in DKs and Monks was a great move, but as long as you have 23/25 people in a raid able and willing to dump all over the tank, the emotional toll is going to keep out most people who can just as easily roll a DPS, wait in a long que, but not deal with the garbage that I went through last night.
    Your story is truly heart breaking. My heart goes out to you.

    But honestly, how is this any different than healers and tanks screaming at DPS on Nazgrim because they didn't realize the boss went into Defensive? Or tanks screaming at the healers on Malkorak? Or any other fight where a player (of any role) does something stupid or makes a mistake?

    This heartbreaking story of yours is something shared by every role in every LFR at one point or another. That DPS or healer that you're trying to kick because he made a wrong moved and wiped the raid? You're calling him stupid, when chances are he made a misstep or lost his place somehow like your tank duo on Lei Shen.

    Yes, LFR is a terrible social environment, but no, being abused and yelled at and called out for things isn't only a tank experience. In fact, I rarely see people blame the tank for things in LFR. It's always the DPS and occasionally a healer. Maybe 1 time out of 20 do people go off on the tank, and in those cases it's usually because the tank fucked up.

    Tanking LFR is boring. Tanking anything is boring, really. But tanks don't get any more abuse than anyone else.

  11. #391
    Field Marshal Neji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I told my raid lead right off..........I am not watching videos because I forget it within 5 minutes same with Dungeon Journal, you want me to learn it put me in there and I will have it memorized in 1 to 2 times doing it.
    YOU are the problem and the reason I'll never tank another LFR again as long as this game is around. Lazy shits who are too good to do 3 minutes of research before diving in. Would you join an adult softball league with ZERO understanding of the rules of baseball and just say, "Hey 8 other players on the team, I've no clue what I'm doing so I'm just going to wing it. Just stay patient as I screw up numerous times. I'll get it eventually."

    It's disrespectful to the 8 other players on your softball team and disrespectful to the 24 other people in the LFR run.

    If you forget what you've watched or read within 5 minutes you have Alzheimers and need to see a god damn doctor and stop playing WoW.
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  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Your story is truly heart breaking. My heart goes out to you.
    *snip for time*
    Tanking LFR is boring. Tanking anything is boring, really. But tanks don't get any more abuse than anyone else.
    I disagree with this line in particular. I believe tanks feel more abusew for one reason. They're the center of attention. There's two of them, six healers & seventeen DPS. They make a fuck up with a switch, or positioning. Que multiple DPS raging on them - simply because there's more of them who feel 'affected' a scrub DPS wouldn't care if a tank yelled at him. Well... that's my experience in my 5 years tanking. And that's what keeps me from tanking LFR.

    -Grim

  13. #393
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neji View Post
    YOU are the problem and the reason I'll never tank another LFR again as long as this game is around. Lazy shits who are too good to do 3 minutes of research before diving in. Would you join an adult softball league with ZERO understanding of the rules of baseball and just say, "Hey 8 other players on the team, I've no clue what I'm doing so I'm just going to wing it. Just stay patient as I screw up numerous times. I'll get it eventually."

    It's disrespectful to the 8 other players on your softball team and disrespectful to the 24 other people in the LFR run.

    If you forget what you've watched or read within 5 minutes you have Alzheimers and need to see a god damn doctor and stop playing WoW.
    i think you misunderstand what he is saying.

    different people have different learning strategies:

    some people simply cannot learn by reading about something and need to see it, some people simply cannot learn by seeing something and need to read about it. some people simply cannot learn by watching a video and need to do it, some people simply cannot learn by doing and need to watch somone else do it like on a video.

    - - - Updated - - -

    also your attitude leave much to be desired.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Hmm. This is a fairly awesome idea. Someone should share it on the Blizzard forums.
    This idea is not new.

    And all it would lead to is a bunch of fury warriors and ret paladins getting a tanking spec with no idea what they're doing, and then going in to tank LFR in a bunch of dps gear.

  15. #395
    There's almost no reason to tank LFR IMO, if you don't know the mechanics, you will likely get booted (and it's easier by watching the fight as a dps). If you do know the mechanics already, it makes more sense to go to flex, where you can get a better group along with better upgrades.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim32 View Post
    I disagree with this line in particular. I believe tanks feel more abusew for one reason. They're the center of attention. There's two of them, six healers & seventeen DPS. They make a fuck up with a switch, or positioning. Que multiple DPS raging on them - simply because there's more of them who feel 'affected' a scrub DPS wouldn't care if a tank yelled at him. Well... that's my experience in my 5 years tanking. And that's what keeps me from tanking LFR.

    -Grim
    This is true of every role, every person, every class. Just because someone yells at you for fucking up doesn't mean you're any more special than the other 24 people who will get yelled at just the same for fucking up. I see people get yelled at for no real reason, just because some LFR Hero wants to join a run and pretend he's all that. It's a player problem, not a role problem.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I don't necessarily agree with this either - you shouldn't ever go into a fight totally blind (outside of say if you are testing it on the PTR) but DJ/Videos should be supplementary. It shouldn't necessarily be required for LFR, or even for the typical (read: not "fast run") Flex raids. Normal and Heroic are IMO a different animal and you should make sure you are prepared. Nothing pisses me off like normal raiders just showing up and being expected to be told "stack on green; if you get <debuff> then run out" and do just that and only that, or have no idea about certain mechanics (perfect anecdote: last night we almost killed Galakras except when I said to stack up, people stacked up in a line and when I said if you get the fireball move out, people ran to the sides. IMO this is basic mechanics that people should know, not just expect to be told exactly what to do. And this was normal mode raiders in a almost all-guild 10M group, not a pug).

    The problem in LFR in general is that people don't care to try or even know anything about the encounter because the pervasive mentality is that it's LFR so mechanics don't matter; the issue is that in most cases mechanics DO matter. LFR is much more forgiving but there are still berserk timers, and there can still be oneshot mechanics (see Durumu and Elegon, among others). If everyone puts forth minimal effort, you won't defeat the encounter, but because "it's just LFR" is the mindset it usually means that you get folks expecting zero mechanics or, worse, mechanics they can stand in and be healed through.

    This isn't limited to DPS, but it's more common with DPS. Once in a while lately I've had quasi-AFK healers just standing there doing nothing, and my pet peeve is a co-tank who immediately says they've never been here (understandable) and have no idea of what they need to do (not so understandable). This is personally annoying because I don't queue as a tank unless I'm absolutely sure that I know what is going on (I didn't do LFR Durumu and co. for over a month because I wasn't sure what was actually going on in the fight and didn't want to cause a wipe); I don't mind explaining to a new tank but I would expect at least some tiny bit of looking at something before queuing, even if it's just the barest of knowledge (e.g. I don't really asking the second tank on Galakras "Do you want adds or towers?" and getting the reply be "no clue never been here b4"; I understand not watching a few videos or reading Icy Veins like I do, but don't go into something blind and expect to trial and error it).
    But, those things killed true gaming. You get everything served. Best experience and challenge was when people went to raid without single knowledge about fight, but figured tacts/strats on their own. Now it's like "Meh, I don't wanna spend hours figuring out boss, lemme watch 5 min youtube, I want my purples"!

  18. #398
    45min q's are bad but now that you can queue for multiple things it isn't as bad. I mean, you can q for all LFRs then while waiting q for a dungeon and while waiting q for a scenario... Might suck if u really just wanted the god damn lfr gear.

    On a side note, how about encounters without tanks?

  19. #399
    Adding more tank specs won't make more people want to babysit a bunch of retarded entitled children blaming everything on them. There's nothing wrong with the current system outside the human factor wich isn't something Blizzard can fix.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    This is true of every role, every person, every class. Just because someone yells at you for fucking up doesn't mean you're any more special than the other 24 people who will get yelled at just the same for fucking up.
    It's the difference between being a DPS and hearing "all the dps are terrible and should die in a fire" and thinking "well I did ok so they can't be yelling at me", and being a tank and hearint "<your name> is terrible and should die in a fire" and knowing that they are talking specifically about you and no one else.

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