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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    This is true of every role, every person, every class. Just because someone yells at you for fucking up doesn't mean you're any more special than the other 24 people who will get yelled at just the same for fucking up. I see people get yelled at for no real reason, just because some LFR Hero wants to join a run and pretend he's all that. It's a player problem, not a role problem.
    'Everyone gets yelled at' is an excuse, not a reason. There's no reason to be yelling at anybody. If you have a problem with someone there's plenty of ways to deal with it without throwing a tantrum.

    Nobody is obligated to accept being treated badly. People should draw the line when that happens. The rarity of tanks simply means it's far more noticeable when they do so. It's absolutely the right thing to do. There's no grand conspiracy of tanks who think they're extra special, it's just a lot of individuals who've decided they don't enjoy tanking in LFR. I'm sure DPS and healers have decided the same, it's just not as noticable because there's more of them.

    I do disagree with your basic argument that it happens equally though, my experience is that tanking comes with higher expectations in terms of gearing and preparation, and that there's an expectation tanks will somehow pick up the slack of the rest of the raid and anger directed at them when it doesn't happen, and often anger directed at them when they don't really understand what has actually happened but want someone to blame (the number of times I've seen people go off at Monk tanks for gemming crit this patch is obscene). It's not the entire raid that does those things usually, but all it takes is one moron to ruin the experience for the tank and make them decide not to try again.

    You say it's a people problem, but doesn't that also mean there's a people solution? The community could do a lot more in taking an active role in reporting/kicking those people and creating a less shitty atmosphere. They appear to have chosen not to do so, and in that case can't really complain that there's suddenly a lack of punching bags for them to take their shit out on imo.
    Last edited by Windfury; 2013-10-19 at 01:55 PM.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    'Everyone gets yelled at' is an excuse, not a reason. There's no reason to be yelling at anybody. If you have a problem with someone there's plenty of ways to deal with it without throwing a tantrum.

    Nobody is obligated to accept being treated badly. People should draw the line when that happens. The rarity of tanks simply means it's far more noticeable when they do so. It's absolutely the right thing to do. There's no grand conspiracy of tanks who think they're extra special, it's just a lot of individuals who've decided they don't enjoy tanking in LFR. I'm sure DPS and healers have decided the same, it's just not as noticable because there's more of them.

    I do disagree with your basic argument that it happens equally though, my experience is that tanking comes with higher expectations in terms of gearing and preparation, and that there's an expectation tanks will somehow pick up the slack of the rest of the raid and anger directed at them when it doesn't happen, and often anger directed at them when they don't really understand what has actually happened but want someone to blame (the number of times I've seen people go off at Monk tanks for gemming crit this patch is obscene). It's not the entire raid that does those things usually, but all it takes is one moron to ruin the experience for the tank and make them decide not to try again.

    You say it's a people problem, but doesn't that also mean there's a people solution? The community could do a lot more in taking an active role in reporting/kicking those people and creating a less shitty atmosphere. They appear to have chosen not to do so, and in that case can't really complain that there's suddenly a lack of punching bags for them to take their shit out on imo.
    There's no sense in tangents based on the assumption that I condone the behavior. Of course I don't. It's silly and childish. But, and this is coming from my personal experience, tanks get yelled at much, much, much less often than DPS or heals. Tanks aren't as special as they pretend to be. I've actually started tanking LFR recently to see what the experience is like from that standpoint to have a better idea of where all these complaints arise from (tanked for a number of years as main prior to firelands). Mind you, I have 0 Tank gear, no experience tanking anything in LFR, and so far I've not encountered one problem aside from boredom. I will continue to get a better idea.

  3. #403
    Two magical solutions for the complete mess of WoW nowadays:

    1.- Implement NPC tanking on dungeons and raids, for God's fuckin' sake, instead waiting 45 minutes in front of your computer or flying in circles in cities. We're paying for playing, not for waiting.
    2.- Implement a way to provide pet/demons/whatever tanking, instead bosses two-shotting them.

    [...]

    Call to arms failed. CRZ failed. Connected realms will fail. Blizzard, stop being a greedy and incompetent company and don't let you customers wait 45 fuckin' minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    You know what the biggest problem with WoW is?

    It's the me-culture. My needs are the most important. _I_ do not want to do that. _I_ do not want to wait. _I_ must now get everything. Me, me, me it's all about me.

    And no this isn't aimed at you - just a generic observation of the modern society.
    This game isn't a F2P one. This game isn't an NGO one. We're the customers and we have the right to blame Blizzard for each and every dumbass move that they do with its product. We have the right to DEMAND a better gaming experience, even when Blizzad don't want to read or hear about it. So yes, my needs are the most important, I don't want to do that, I don't want to wait and I must get everything.

    And when everything else fails, vote with your wallet and let this game sinks.

  4. #404
    You can add as many tank classes as you like, it won't change a thing. People don't tank for the simple reason they don't want to be the one that everyone depends on.

    I myself have 4 tanks now, because I love the job. I've tried DPSing several times, but plain abandoned the raid because it was too dull for words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trauma443 View Post
    Two magical solutions for the complete mess of WoW nowadays:

    1.- Implement NPC tanking on dungeons and raids, for God's fuckin' sake, instead waiting 45 minutes in front of your computer or flying in circles in cities. We're paying for playing, not for waiting.
    2.- Implement a way to provide pet/demons/whatever tanking, instead bosses two-shotting them.

    [...]

    Call to arms failed. CRZ failed. Connected realms will fail. Blizzard, stop being a greedy and incompetent company and don't let you customers wait 45 fuckin' minutes.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This game isn't a F2P one. This game isn't an NGO one. We're the customers and we have the right to blame Blizzard for each and every dumbass move that they do with its product. We have the right to DEMAND a better gaming experience, even when Blizzad don't want to read or hear about it. So yes, my needs are the most important, I don't want to do that, I don't want to wait and I must get everything.

    And when everything else fails, vote with your wallet and let this game sinks.
    I sincerely hope your kind just unsubs at once. "Players" like you are the primairy cause of this games' downfall.
    Last edited by Arenis; 2013-10-20 at 03:16 PM.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Arenis View Post
    I sincerely hope your kind just unsubs at once. "Players" like you are the primairy cause of this games' downfall.
    Heh, truth hurts, eh? . The reason of this game's downfall are the brainless sheeps that conform with anything that Blizzard throws at them and keep following the herd.

    Keep following the herd, my friend, keep following.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by trauma443 View Post
    Heh, truth hurts, eh? . The reason of this game's downfall are the brainless sheeps that conform with anything that Blizzard throws at them and keep following the herd.

    Keep following the herd, my friend, keep following.
    This isn't necessarily true. Just because he may not be comfortable with how the vocal masses affect the game doesn't mean he's following any kind of herd. It's actually the opposite.

    If it's considered sheepish and a herd mentality to not want to see the game devolved into a mass of socialistic rewards and game changes that make even basic mechanics a nonissue, then I would have to be counted among the sheep myself.

    To each his own. The game has lost certain bits of flavor it once had, but I think they're still doing a good job of balancing things when all is said and done.

    If it does ever get to the point where there are no rewards for effort or the gameplay is finally dulled to a point where intelligent decisions no longer matter then I would have to regrettably stop playing. But it's still workable for now.
    Last edited by Louis CK; 2013-10-20 at 03:47 PM.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by trauma443 View Post
    Heh, truth hurts, eh? . The reason of this game's downfall are the brainless sheeps that conform with anything that Blizzard throws at them and keep following the herd.

    Keep following the herd, my friend, keep following.
    If only that would make any sense.

  8. #408
    I don't mind tanking lfr. I find it to be the easiest role because I'm more apt to have a successful run when I tank it. About abuse, you really need thick skin when dealing with random groups. 99% of the time if someone badmouths you they're just blowing off steam and will let it go if you just ignore it. If you do something wrong, an acknowledgement and "I'm sorry" goes a long way to diffusing the situation. Remember, they're not really upset at you, they're just frustrated that the run didn't go right at that point for whatever reason. Don't take it personal, stay positive, and it won't bother you.

    It does feel great when a healer or another tank thanks you for doing a good job. While that doesn't happen often enough, it does happen. So, it's not all bad.

  9. #409
    LF* tools are not meant for any kind of cooperation, everything must be nerfed to allow players just rush through it without any thought. Beginning of Cataclysm proved that when heroic instances that required cooperation failed miserably in LFD environment.

    So why is LFR requires tanks to put any effort when other roles can mindlessly push random buttons? LFR needs to be nerfed to make it in line with LFD for tanks, that is pulling everything and ignoring any tactics. That's the only way tanks will go there.

    Problem can only be solved by making LFR experience for tanks the same as it is for other roles. LFR/LFD is mindless loot pinata anyway.
    Last edited by Binki; 2013-10-20 at 04:03 PM.
    Skinning a bear should aggro every bears in a 40 yard radius. It makes sense, you are actually skinning their best friend.

  10. #410
    I don't agree binki. A lot of people roll tanks because they like the role, not because they want it to be easy. I think something that would go a long ways towards getting shorter queue times would be to design some wings of lfr to be one tank encounters. If they designed the encounters to require a team to more closely match the quantity of roles queuing for them, wait times would go down.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    LF* tools are not meant for any kind of cooperation, everything must be nerfed to allow players just rush through it without any thought. Beginning of Cataclysm proved that when heroic instances that required cooperation failed miserably in LFD environment.

    So why is LFR requires tanks to put any effort when other roles can mindlessly push random buttons? LFR needs to be nerfed to make it in line with LFD for tanks, that is pulling everything and ignoring any tactics. That's the only way tanks will go there.

    Problem can only be solved by making LFR experience for tanks the same as it is for other roles. LFR/LFD is mindless loot pinata anyway.
    What effort exactly? Moving occasionally? Pressing a taunt button occasionally? Pressing random buttons occasionally for threat?

    Hell, I went into tank a couple LFR's the other day just because I keep seeing all these threads and wanted to see what all the hub bub was... I have 0 tank gear and hadn't tanked any of the fights until then. It was just as simple and boring as I expected it to be and I didn't have one problem.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    What effort exactly? Moving occasionally? Pressing a taunt button occasionally? Pressing random buttons occasionally for threat?

    Hell, I went into tank a couple LFR's the other day just because I keep seeing all these threads and wanted to see what all the hub bub was... I have 0 tank gear and hadn't tanked any of the fights until then. It was just as simple and boring as I expected it to be and I didn't have one problem.
    Which lfr? There's a lot of difference between a fight that everyone outgears and one that is new. It's also possible for tanks to be carried if the rest of the group is good, which likely happened here. You can't form an accurate impression off of one (or even several) runs. I'd wager that most people playing tank roles have played other roles as well, so when we tell you there's more flak and challenge associated with it, it might be a good idea to listen. Dps roles are mind-numbingly simple in comparison.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by dusselldorf View Post
    Which lfr? There's a lot of difference between a fight that everyone outgears and one that is new. It's also possible for tanks to be carried if the rest of the group is good, which likely happened here. You can't form an accurate impression off of one (or even several) runs. I'd wager that most people playing tank roles have played other roles as well, so when we tell you there's more flak and challenge associated with it, it might be a good idea to listen. Dps roles are mind-numbingly simple in comparison.
    Oh, I'll be tanking more of them over the next week or two, I gotta catch up on my legendary stuff from ToT/SoO.

    And why would I listen to complaints instead of finding out first hand? Which is what I'm doing. I miss the days when tanking was challenging and fun, and all these complaints made me think maybe something had changed and it was again. Honestly, I think the majority of it is just whining.

    That's my opinion based on my own experience. If you don't agree with it, doesn't matter, had sex.

  14. #414
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Nensec View Post
    Mainly because those tank classes can also DPS.

    A wild push of blizzard would be to add a true protector class, one that can only tank and heal
    why include heal? why not make tanks totally worthless for anything but raiding? remove their damage component, leave nothing but threat and survivabilty and watch your tank numbers plummet even more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Actually, rather than asking that, "you" should probably shut up rather than remove all doubt about whether "you" are a complete ass.

    Because this game needs fewer complete asses.

    Bad players? Might be fine to get along with anyway. Complete asses? Not what I log in for.
    It tends to get my point across quicker than patting them on the back, baby sitting, or holding their hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    In this case it would mean tanks themselves are dicks and canabalize themself. Though admittedly I've seen other, more inexperienced tanks, be more than happy that I actually explained boss fights to them, instead if ignoring/insulting them, maybe alot of tanks are in fact dicks :P.

    Even the most calm mild mannered protection player will tend to become more dickish each time he is forced to work along side incompetence.


    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    why include heal? why not make tanks totally worthless for anything but raiding? remove their damage component, leave nothing but threat and survivabilty and watch your tank numbers plummet even more.
    I've said it before, but tanks should be viable, competitive DPS. Vengance should be a mechanic that the tank is actually involved in and has control over that he uses amidst his/her survival abilities to both stay alive and compete on "the meters" so to speak. I don't mean competitive with other tanks, I mean actually competitive DPS.

    Something along these lines:

    Vengance works with survival/mitigation abilities (it doesn't just blindly stack) and must be woven together to maximize and be competitive DPS. This would make the role more engaging and more fun in general. I know I'd tank again, and probably roll tank alts just to play a role like that instead of today's lifeless meatshield.

    Survival stats would still be the main focus, as they would be part of the vengance/mitigation weaving to maximize the DPS (so they wouldn't just be DPS classes who taunt a boss, so to speak). And boss fights would be created with tank DPS in mind.

    I think it would also get rid of some of the lesser tanks who do it because it's easy, and gain a lot more skilled players who are attracted to the competitive element.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post


    Even the most calm mild mannered protection player will tend to become more dickish each time he is forced to work along side incompetence.
    Incompetence in this case would not be misunderstanding parts of the fight. Incompetence would be unwilling to share information for the progression of the group. If you're not helping others who are willing to learn, that is a failure on your part, not theirs.

  17. #417
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Reading the dungeon journal often isn't enough; you have to actually see the fight to "get" how it really works. Even a fight like Immerseus for example, you can read the DJ and still not know how to know what direction Swirl is coming, how far it moves, when the puddle comes on you, how the adds spawn, etc. Watching a video can often help with that but do we really want to get into the notion that "You need to watch third party videos to do in-game content"? I think not. Videos are beyond helpful, naturally, but I don't think it should be required​, and especially not for LFR.

    in lfr the swirl will not kill you
    in lfr the puddle will not kill you
    in lfr spawns making it to the boss rarely kill you.

    so, yes you should be able to get a general grasp of the encounter from the dungeon journal and should have a firm grasp after the first time you have done it.

    I have found that the players jaw jacking and spouting out really bad advice is one of the worst things going on.

    And yes, I will admit that I go from zero to asshole in a very short time when some LFR hero starts trying to tell me how to accomplish a LFR boss that I have completed on normal or heroic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Another issue is that now you can queue up as a healer or as a dps with a healer and get a good fast queue while setting yourself to get tank gear so there is no reason to tank LFR when you can get the rewards of tanking without the hassle.
    in addition the fact that you still have people que up as a class they suck at in order to get the quick que and then on top of that do not even try to perform the roll they que for leaving the group as a whole at a minus.

    and tanks that que dps are kind of lame in my opinion. if you want to be a tank, be a tank.


    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Even the most calm mild mannered *SNIP* player will tend to become more dickish each time he is forced to work along side incompetence.
    I hate doing this to people, but had to change that for you.

  19. #419
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    You know what the biggest problem with WoW is?

    It's the me-culture. My needs are the most important. _I_ do not want to do that. _I_ do not want to wait. _I_ must now get everything. Me, me, me it's all about me.

    And no this isn't aimed at you - just a generic observation of the modern society.
    the me culture is very strong in wow.

    the effort is too much to overcome a boss with the group you have? move to another group. it is that simple. people screw over other people on a daily basis, because they can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    You want more tanks in LFR? I'll be perfectly honest what myself and all of my tank friends think about LFR and ever going back. You DPS that think you're hot shit when you're not need to keep quiet, know your roles and execute because the DPS that are actually elite aren't usually the ones foaming at the mouth. It's the LFR heroes. Stop pissing off the tanks and healers and do your jobs and more tanks will be willing to join. Stop tunneling the wrong mobs or the boss when you should be on adds. Stop being AFK half of the time and for Gods sake, stop standing in shit.

    Change the attitude and the tanks will come back. It will take time and if Blizzard offered more incentive to get tanks actually wanting to do LFR, that should help out as well. No one is asking you to bow down to the will of the tanks but most of us aren't willing to put up with your crap when we can run Flex/Norm/Heroic content with guildmates or friends.

    If not, continue to sit and wait, and wait, and wait for a re roll tank to show up and maybe he/she will know enough to help get you through to the next encounter.
    well said ser. vivant


    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  20. #420
    90% of the time when I had to do LFR, I did it on an alt with a gathering profession(only did LFR on main for the legendary stuff). So I had plenty of time in the week to gather all my stuff to craft my daily things throughout the whole week. So nps for me with a que time 30mins+

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