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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    At this point it's not even clear what you're attempting to argue. It seems you're more interested in "demonstrating" that tanks don't have more responsibility than a DPS or Healer. On the face of it alone, I think most people who actually play the game will reject that argument. And of course there is the fact that if you were correct, there wouldn't be a tank shortage in the first place (or perhaps you're trying to argue there is no tank shortage? . . . Again you're all over the place).

    Overly reducing the LFR experience and leaving out all the important parts (as your post does above) just makes it much worse. I don't find you credible in any respect whatsoever.
    I feel with new people coming in halfway through a thread, maybe I should sum up the points I've been making, since I don't believe they're being followed in context:

    -Lower skilled players refuse to get into tanking because of the assumed responsibility involved. Although tanking in LFR takes little more responsibility than any other role, these players are afraid of it

    -Higher skilled players generally avoid tanking because they find it boring

    -Bad tanks in LFR who complain about "abuse" usually encounter this because of things they do wrong, and that's an abuse that every role in LFR experiences. It doesn't make it okay, but LFR is a terrible environment do reverting, not just tanks.

    -Good tanks are not generally found in LFR because they have no reason to go (they're usually geared just fine from their own guild)

    -Bad tanks generally roll a tank because they feel that it will entitle them to something no matter how poorly they play, and they get upset when others don't agree with this entitlement

    -Good tanks roll a tank because they enjoy the role and responsibility involved, a responsibility seldom found in LFR.

    To sum it up: Good tanks roll tank for the right reasons and do well outside of LFR. Bad tanks roll tank for the wrong reasons and put themselves through hell because they're not good enough for real raiding. Instead, they complain.

    These are general statements, so there will be specific examples where this differs.

    The overall point I'm trying to get at is this: if you complain and point fingers at everyone but yourself just because you're a tank, you won't get very far in the game.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox2042 View Post
    If I'm new to tanking then why would I step into LFR when as a dps I've seen so many tanks bashed on when things go bad even if it's note their fault? If I'm geared and experienced then why would I want to carry a bunch of rude, undeserving dps who have nothing better to do then whine about their 45 minute queue time while doing subpar dps?
    Sums up my feelings exactly. All I do in WoW, and have done for almost as long as I've been playing, is tank. I've tanked early heroic progression as well as realm-firsts, and I've raided seriously on all tank classes to date (including Monk). I still run into situation in LFR where someone (usually a DPS, simply because there are more of them...) does something, err, "without forethought", and wipes the raid. The result is always the same: some DPS (almost always the guy that did something stupid to begin with) starts blaming tanks for the wipe, be it positioning, not calling things out for everyone else in realtime, or any number of reasons. And this is directed to a tank that is as experienced (and geared if I'm on one of my primary toons for weekly VP cap) as I am, and can shrug it off or gently rebut with the sequence of events that actually led to us wiping.

    Also, just earlier today, I queued on my main (ilvl 560 prot pally) for daily heroic to finish valor cap. So, zone in, I run ahead and start killing trash like I and so many other tanks always have. 2 out of 3 dps follow, then the third dps catches up and along we go. Then, out of nowhere, the healer starts raging in party chat "what's up your ***!!? not even a readycheck or anything to see if everyone is ready before you just go and run in?"... and he went on for a while. I ultimately just said "you're the only one that's complaining, so i don't see a problem with it. if i actually needed heals in here i would have waited and made sure you were ready. but i don't, so the dps and i started clearing trash while we waited for you."

    I'm sure that newer tanks with less experience tanking get it even worse... not the kind of environment I'd want to pay money to put myself in. So, any tanks that know their role have their guilds and reg/flex raid groups and don't need to run LFR unless they're gearing up another tank (generally), and those that don't know how to tank and want to learn, or are new to it and still lack complete confidence in their ability to tank, are forced to make the decision between trying and getting this sort of treatment, or simply not doing it at all.
    Last edited by XtremeC0der; 2013-10-21 at 08:33 PM.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Well then let's put it like this:

    What is the role of a tank in LFR?

    SNIP
    What a ridiculously simplistic view of it.

    Its like comparing a dog and a cat and coming to the conclusion that they both hair fur and four legs, therefore they are the same.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Zxzas View Post
    The active mitigation is what killed it for some tanks I knew. Granted it is more "play smart, stay alive", but I think some tanks miss the passiveness, and only needing to use their "oh shiite buttons."
    I think this is a good complaint, because I do know some guildies that prefer their defenses to be passive and less complex. I think it'd be neat to have some major glyph options to convert active mitigation abilities into weak passives for those who are basically just running LFR and LFD. Make them suboptimal in 99% of cases, but good for folks who don't want to micromanage their defensive abilities.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    What a ridiculously simplistic view of it.

    Its like comparing a dog and a cat and coming to the conclusion that they both hair fur and four legs, therefore they are the same.
    It's LFR. That is an accurate view of it. If we were discussing normal or HM tanking, then yeah, that would be an absurd summation of tanking. But LFR is absurdly simple for every role.

  6. #546
    There are a number of reasons why a) tanks avoid LFR and b) people avoid playing tanks.

    I would suggest that the biggest reason that tanking in LFR is avoided is because tanks are in the spotlight. Period. There are two tanks and that means that you would be one of two. Those two people, above all others, are expected to know what the fight entails, and what each particular boss is supposed to do and they dictate the rate at which trash is pulled in between bosses. On top of that, they are fully expected to know exactly WHICH trash mobs need to be pulled and which do not, and woe be to the tank who pulls even one more mob than the absolute minimum necessary to get to the next boss. If a DPS or healer accidentally pulls trash that the group insisted on skipping, it's on the tank to recognize this and immediately get aggro and pull that person's ass out of the fire. Or it's on the healer(s) to prevent that person from dying.

    If a tank dies in a fight, everyone knows it and if there are no battle rezzes (or those who can b-rez simply don't or won't) then often that fight can become a wipe. If a healer dies, you still have five more to pull the weight. If a DPS dies, you still have sixteen more to pull the weight. The margin for error is simply MUCH smaller for those who enter LFR in the tanking role. 1/2 or 1/6 or 1/17, it's pretty obvious who has the least margin for error. No one ever sees a DPS dies and calls them out for wiping the raid. Some DPS die on purpose just so they don't actually have to try during the encounter and most times, you can't even get the raid to kick these assholes. How many of us have encountered that healer who is just happily DPSing (and rarely even well!) while people left and right are dying and causing a wipe due to a lack of healers? Still, the tanks will be yelled at because they are moving the boss too much, or they didn't taunt in time, or they didn't grab the add or you name it.

    The bottom line is, these things are often not an issue in a dedicated raid environment (even including flex now) because the people who chose the role of tank know what they are in for and might even be the most learned on each encounter; they kinda have to. People who are just starting to tank, or who have dual specced to tank for the faster queue times (and maybe even the reward satchels...) generally aren't as good at tanking in the first place, and probably only know the encounters from a DPS perspective, which is sit back, let the tank explain the encounter, let the tank pull, let the tank ready check, let the tank etc, etc, etc. The above issues are even more exaggerated when a new LFR wing is introduced because people don't yet know what to expect. Now that flex exists, and it seems that a good amount of people are gravitating toward, you are probably seeing dedicated tanks finding better rewards and better groups than LFR can offer.

    I don't think that there's a whole lot that Blizzard can do to alleviate this problem. They can't incentivize true tanks to do more LFR to reduce queue times (any more than they already do with the satchels) and they can't create more or better tanks for LFR since that requires the players themselves to do. So where does that leave the LFR community? Well, it leaves them with self-inflicted long queues and worse and worse players left to run LFR. I'm sure that there are the very people I have described reading this now who are getting their hackles up and feeling defensive because they do the very things I am describing as a problem and yet complain because "whaaaaa queues are too long; why no one want tank?" Like the asshole healers who queue as healer either for the shorter queue time or the satchel or both. Or the dipshit DPS who dies on every boss then walks away to get food, a drink, take a piss, jerkoff, or whatever it is that they are doing that isn't helping the group... The problem is NOT the tanks. The problem is the disgusting community that makes no one want to deal with all the shit that the tanks have to deal with in LFR. I don't even know that there IS a solution. Offer better rewards? You'll just find more non tanks attempting to tank so they can get those rewards and increase the number of tanks who DON'T know what they are doing. The same would happen if you created a tank spec for non-traditional tanking classes. There would be an initial learning curve and no one in LFR has the patience to be the test lab for a DPS class testing out the new tank role!
    I can teach you how to play, but I can't fix stupid.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    I feel with new people coming in halfway through a thread, maybe I should sum up the points I've been making, since I don't believe they're being followed in context:

    <snip>

    The overall point I'm trying to get at is this: if you complain and point fingers at everyone but yourself just because you're a tank, you won't get very far in the game.
    Hi Compstance, thank you for summing up your ideas for the late comers. You've seemed pretty dedicated to the thread and vocal in it. You've given reasons why there are a lack of tanks in LFR. What changes to the game do you think would convince people to tank in LFR? A change in the community will not happen without a change to the game.

  8. #548
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    What a ridiculously simplistic view of it.

    Its like comparing a dog and a cat and coming to the conclusion that they both hair fur and four legs, therefore they are the same.
    but they kinda are.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  9. #549
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagonos View Post
    They can't incentivize true tanks to do more LFR to reduce queue times (any more than they already do with the satchels) !
    Actually they could do 2 things that would help in keeping / getting some tanks in.

    1) If you look at LFR que and you see satchel no matter how many people come or go so long as you kill teh last boss you get stchel. The current *if one person leaves you don't get satchel* model is NOT working... if all you are there for is satchel as soon as one person leaves is not working out so well!

    2) Make sure the satchel has something to do with class spec! I know I can't be alone that goes 'WTF" when I get a int flask! Not asking for more mounts or gold or anythign but just class spec apropriate bonuses or more valor woudl be nice. Kind of like "hey this group needs you and we knwo you need to cap valor...let's help eachother" > tnx for the help hers...a...hmm spirit poition...yeay you got spirit now!!

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by the View Post
    Hi Compstance, thank you for summing up your ideas for the late comers. You've seemed pretty dedicated to the thread and vocal in it. You've given reasons why there are a lack of tanks in LFR. What changes to the game do you think would convince people to tank in LFR? A change in the community will not happen without a change to the game.
    Anonymity is the problem. People will do and say things when they're anonymous that they would never do when their reputation is at stake.

    As long as LFR remains anonymous matchmaking, I see the problem continuing to get worse.

    I sincerely hope that Flex replaces it next expansion. Or, if they seek to keep it, make an "easier" version of Flex for the LFR Community. That way LFR-goers can still have their fun, but still require se level of social accountability.

  11. #551
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the View Post
    Hi Compstance, thank you for summing up your ideas for the late comers. You've seemed pretty dedicated to the thread and vocal in it. You've given reasons why there are a lack of tanks in LFR. What changes to the game do you think would convince people to tank in LFR? A change in the community will not happen without a change to the game.
    Can't speak for compstance but for myself one thing that would help is more 5 mans that re-inforce the use of tank CD's while you level / gear up. The #1 problem with new tanks is nothign up untill raids challenges them or teaches them how to use all there abilities. prooving grounds helps a bit but a class specific one that would show the benefits of the abilities and when to use them might be more in order now and the dungeon journal while good Lacks sooooooo much.

    Ex as a prot war knowing you can spell refelct and mass spel reflect the frost shit on dark shamans helps TONS. spell reflecting when in the test on Norushen > interupting = you don't get hit with the cast and deal a good chunk of dmg to the add and get out faster, reflect arrows on galk, reflect drill shit on Iron J Etc. Now where other than a fan site or talking to another prot war are you supose to find this information? What to use when and what abilities can be mitigated by what is the #1 lacking component to help new tanks in my opinion and is what makes tanking LFR for new tanks too daunting beyond the group pressure! you got all these toos and abilities ...but no clue as to what you can use them on because of shit like "o it's a phisical hit...but you can't block it even though block is for physical hits lolololol" and "well you can spell reflect spells... but not that one form the boss...but the other one you can no problem". For shit like that blizz dropped the ball hard and I do a gree makes it hell for a new tank.
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-10-21 at 09:05 PM.

  12. #552
    I'm a Tank. Or, at least, I used to tank.. It used to be fun, being the one that kept control and set the pace, allowing the team to do their thing. Now it almost feels unnecessary, with DPS being able to tank anything short of a Raid Boss. Now instead of setting a comfortable pace, I feel rushed. People feel comfortable enough with their ability to do things only Tanks used to do that they will pull trash or bosses, then blame the tank for not picking it up. If mistakes are made, which happens to the best of us, more and more people are ready to jump all over a tank. I've had to endure tirades about things completely out of my control. Some nights I feel like I need a Valium just to tank an entire raid.

    When you see things like this, does it makes You want to Tank?

    Honestly, these days I'm grateful toward anyone that chooses to tank.. or heal, for that matter.

    If we want more people to take up these roles, it would help to show a little support in their direction. Let them know they are appreciated.

    This is where my fancy character signature would be, if I had one.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    but they kinda are.
    Not true. One has more dark meat.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

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  14. #554
    Pandaren Monk Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Tanks don't do any more work than anyone else in the raid. And it could be argued that they can get by with less than others in the raid.
    Yet you fail to see the obvious reason why tanking is so hated in LFR :
    You fail as dps/healer, you may die, the raid don't care.
    You fail as tank, you certainly die, the raid certainly wipe. Raging on you.

  15. #555
    Mechagnome
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    Would it be helpful to have a thumbs up or down button to associated a players performance in raid groups, not just for tanks but for all players. Let the raid vote on each other’s performance and make it a linkable stat. Want in a pug link you social ranking, might keep people from being asses?

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Actually they could do 2 things that would help in keeping / getting some tanks in.

    1) If you look at LFR que and you see satchel no matter how many people come or go so long as you kill teh last boss you get stchel. The current *if one person leaves you don't get satchel* model is NOT working... if all you are there for is satchel as soon as one person leaves is not working out so well!

    2) Make sure the satchel has something to do with class spec! I know I can't be alone that goes 'WTF" when I get a int flask! Not asking for more mounts or gold or anythign but just class spec apropriate bonuses or more valor woudl be nice. Kind of like "hey this group needs you and we knwo you need to cap valor...let's help eachother" > tnx for the help hers...a...hmm spirit poition...yeay you got spirit now!!
    Actually your belief that the satchel disappears is a fallacy. If you queue up when the satchel is being offered, as long as you never leave the queue and you complete the LFR, you WILL get a satchel. Period. Trust me, I run enough LFRs and dungeon to know this to be 100% true. I have taken the queue before even though the rewards offered did NOT show a satchel (once the queue popped) because when I actually entered the queue, a satchel WAS offered, and I definitely received my satchel. Small point, I know, but it's relevant if it's the only reason you are queueing as a tank...
    I can teach you how to play, but I can't fix stupid.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Yet you fail to see the obvious reason why tanking is so hated in LFR :
    You fail as dps/healer, you may die, the raid don't care.
    You fail as tank, you certainly die, the raid certainly wipe. Raging on you.
    Not sure what LFR you've been in where healers/DPS doing stupid shit don't get kicked quicker than immediate or verbally assaulted immediately. I imagine that's a good LFR compared to what I've seen.

    I'm an LFR where the tank is the only focus? I bet that's the best kind of LFR you can be in... But for the rest of us, it's just miserable watching bads yell at bads.

    Unfortunately for me, I was away for most of this xpac and was forced to do LFR for two weeks since I resubbed. Thankfully I don't have to go back again except for Secrets.

    LFR is bad because of the anonymity. I sincerely hope it's gone next expansion. Anyone who sees it as okay for anonymous 25m matchmaking to exist in a multi-million player base deserves the abuse they run into.

  18. #558
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagonos View Post
    Actually your belief that the satchel disappears is a fallacy. If you queue up when the satchel is being offered, as long as you never leave the queue and you complete the LFR, you WILL get a satchel. Period.
    then all of us that submited tickets after not getting one only to get a GM responce of

    "
    Thank you for contacting the World of Warcraft Game Master Department regarding your recent issue with the Looking For Raid Satchel of Cosmic Mysteries.

    The Satchel is granted to players who solo queue for Looking For Raid in roles that are currently underpopulated. Queueing as a group automatically removes eligibility for the satchel.

    In order to qualify for the satchel, you must also complete the entirety of the raid. If your group must re-queue, you are essentially queueing as a group and thus may not be eligible to receive the Satchel.

    Since this is the intended design of the satchel system, Customer Support is unable to provide restorations of the Satchel.

    Thank you again for contacting the World of Warcraft Game Master Department. Enjoy the Siege of Orgrimmar!


    Blizzard Customer Support "


    Must be inventing the issue! Or when you loose some one and reque there was still a satchel being offered for tanks!

    Google it you will see enough complaints on teh official forums don't even need to look at fan sites for that problem!

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoke is a gamer View Post
    =because, even with the updates to active tanking, it's still the most boring and often times the most hostile role to play.


    my opinion is fact, everyone!!

  20. #560
    Stood in the Fire Snorkles's Avatar
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    I once got the satchel queing as DPS but with loot spec set to Tank (bug I presume)...

    Unless by some miracle DPS were getting satchel for some reason (I have never see this happen).

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