45 min LFR queue as DPS. Yes, it's about tanks...

[Deleted]

the insanely long queuetimes as a DPS is what holds me back from gearing my hunter. it's currently sitting on 526 but I cant stand spending 50 minutes in a queue when I can get in within 15 minutes on my tank.

[Theronus]

I think that most LFR players who were above average and did LFR only because they had no choice are now raiding Flex.
So that screwed up the queues a little bit, but i think that's a good thing. Because it will push more people into Flex.
And when they finally implement a better way to form Flex groups, then we won't need LFR at all.

[melodramocracy]

If the responsibility can be fulfilled by essentially pressing one button then the task is not more difficult. Note this is just an example and not what actually happens in game but it's proof that less room for errors is not equivalent to more difficulty.

It's all nothing more than pressing buttons, but the difficulty stems from the impact of making a mistake. And less room for error certainly is a valid indicator of difficulty. Most video games including this one are built exactly on that premise.

If a single tank misses a defensive cd, or a taunt, he or the other tank could die, which could result in a wipe.
If a single healer misses a heal on a tank, said tank could die, which could result in a wipe.
In most cases if a single dps misses a single cd, you might see it on meters. If its a defensive cd and the dps dies, it will generally not result in a wipe.

[xytech]

I tank LFR on my DK. If the fight requires 2 tanks I'll whisper the other tank to tell him what to do so we won't wipe. The only time I ever wipe in lfr is when I'm nr1 in dps (as tank). I also run LFR on my lock, if I could tank with him I would be all over that.

I'll keep running LFR until I'm rid of any gear 522 ilvl and below.

[Glorious Leader]

It's all nothing more than pressing buttons, but the difficulty stems from the impact of making a mistake. And less room for error certainly is a valid indicator of difficulty. Most video games including this one are built exactly on that premise.

If a single tank misses a defensive cd, or a taunt, he or the other tank could die, which could result in a wipe.
If a single healer misses a heal on a tank, said tank could die, which could result in a wipe.
In most cases if a single dps misses a single cd, you might see it on meters. If its a defensive cd and the dps dies, it will generally not result in a wipe.

The likely hood of mistakes increases when the number of tasks being asked to perform increases (i.e the buttons to push or more braodly the shit to pay attention to). Less room for error is not the only indicator of difficulty in fact it can skew difficulty quite a bit unless you think BC raids were insanely difficult. They featured very little in the way of mechanics but they were insanely unforgiving if you did fuck them up.


Your examples are insanely pessimistic but you missed the point entirely. Is it harder to have to do 30 different things but missing none of them results in death or is it harder to have to do one thing but having it result in death if you fail? Room for error is not the only judge of difficulty. I.E Is it harder to fight a boss where the ONLY mechanic is a tank swap and if that tank swap fails it's gg OR is it harder to have a boss figth with 4 or 5 mechanics none of which alone result in failure? Once again this is not explicitly the case in current raids but the idea that tanking is somehow more difficult because theirs less room for error is not in and of itself true. The roll of the tank could be reduced to one button and one very simple task with absolutely no room for error and it would be easy as piss.

[butcherr]

Tanking is 10 times harder than dps'ing... just the responsibiity alone not even considering anything else...

[Kerath]

I don't think tank shortage is something Blizzard can solve by adding tank specs to classes which don't currently have one.
It's player attitude towards tanks - especially inexperienced/learning tanks - that needs to change, if you want to get more tanks into things such as LFD and LFR. I've not played in a while, so feel free to take my anecdotal experience with a pinch of salt, but when running LFD/LFR on alts (usually healing, as that was always my preferred role), the behaviour some people showed towards tanks was nothing short of toxic. If they make the smallest mistake they're pounced on, told that they're shit, insulted, and then (if they're not kicked) they have to deal with constant scrutiny and people 'backseat tanking' the rest of the run.

Now if you’re an experienced player that just had a momentary lapse in judgement, you can probably just ignore the crap people fling at you and get on with it, but a new tank that’s just learning the ropes? That sort of thing is thoroughly demoralising and enough to put you off the role for a long time, if not for good. I didn’t step foot in a dungeon or raid on a tank alt until I’d had a lot of practise in guild groups for precisely that reason. A new tank might not have that option.

I know healers can cop a lot of flak too, but as I was already an experienced healer long before LFD and later, LFR, I never really had to deal with many problems, but there were many occasions when I felt so sorry for the tank(s) in a run I was in.

[Therougetitan]

ikr tanks in LFR are really something

Tanking isn't even hard lol

That's the issue. People make fun of tanks who try and fail. No one cares if a dps dies, but if a tank messes up everyone sees and it's a wipe with all the blame is on you, I've seen new tanks kicked on the first wipe like that.

[khalltusk]

The likely hood of mistakes increases when the number of tasks being asked to perform increases (i.e the buttons to push or more braodly the shit to pay attention to). Less room for error is not the only indicator of difficulty in fact it can skew difficulty quite a bit unless you think BC raids were insanely difficult. They featured very little in the way of mechanics but they were insanely unforgiving if you did fuck them up.


Your examples are insanely pessimistic but you missed the point entirely. Is it harder to have to do 30 different things but missing none of them results in death or is it harder to have to do one thing but having it result in death if you fail? Room for error is not the only judge of difficulty. I.E Is it harder to fight a boss where the ONLY mechanic is a tank swap and if that tank swap fails it's gg OR is it harder to have a boss figth with 4 or 5 mechanics none of which alone result in failure?

I see what you say but in reality the tank role requires a bit more than a DPS.

Tanking has more responsibility than DPSing and thus I would say there is more pressure on that role. More difficult? I would say probably yes, as you both do your damage moves but tanks have more cooldowns to manage for survival and worrying about add spawns/tank swaps boss positioning along with avoiding all the fire on the ground. Not to mention a few of the tank classes can battle rez and I often find my self having to battle rez a healer or someone who died while tanking the boss and moving etc. It may not be massively more difficult than being a DPS but its most likely just above it.

[Nihth]

I think Blizzard messed up a long time ago with their tank/healer/dps ratio. I like the 2 tanks in 10 man, but I think there should be 5 in 25 mans. I think the ratio in 5 mans, 10 mans, and 25 mans should be the same. I think having more tanks in LFR would actually make it easier. I think requiring more tanks and making tanking a more integral part of the game would be good.

The bottom line is that the intricacies of tanking are missed on the masses. Most people cant even DPS correctly and tanking is more difficult. There's no tank-o-meter on recount and tanks never get the glory. It's a thankless job and Blizzard has required that too few people actually tank.

If anything Blizzard should offer incentives for sticking around and finishing instances. Whether it's bonus rolls or extra gold.

I agree with this, there are much more tanks needed in 5 man and 10 man compared to 25 man ratio wise. Because of this there are ratio wise fewer people that pick tanks as their main spec, and since its a pain in the ass to tank instances outside of guild/friend runs there are probably a lot of the main-tank spec people that run as DPS outside of their guild. If the raids required more tanks there would be more demands of tanks. And LFR would probably not be as bad for tanks since the pressure would be divided among more tanks.

[h4rr0d]

Tanking is 10 times harder than dps'ing... just the responsibiity alone not even considering anything else...

Fresh out from tanking LFR ToT part 3 (yay for having to run obsolete raids to get legendary pieces):
- Dumuru - Taunt when my debuff fades.
- Primodius - Taunt when my debuff fades + kite the boss around the room (ok, this part can be considered tricky)
- Animus - Gather up adds as they become active and move out of dark anima (and after adds are dead, taunt when the other tank gets the anima debuff)

I haven't tanked SoO yet, but in general:
Immerseus - see Dumuru
Panda guys - face the guy with cone aoe out of the raid (actually easier than any of the ToT bosses)
Norushen - see Dumuru + taunt adds as they appear
Sha of Pride - see Dumuru
Galakras - see Animus
Juggernaut - see Dumuru
Dark shamans - see Primodius (both tanks have to taunt)
Nazgrim - see Dumuru
Malkorok - see Dumuru
Spoils - see Animus (no taunting though)
Thok - see Dumuru + pick up add when boss not tankable

All of that while not really having to watch out for anything else or having to worry about any kind of rotation.
How is that 10 times harder than DPSing is beyond me. Please bear in mind I'm talking only about tanking in LFR. Normal/heroic tanking will be probably trickier because tanks have to actually worry about that active mitigation thingy

[Emophia]

That's because thanks are so homoginized and boring now.

They're all the same, they're all just about keep their thing (savage defense/SoTR/Shieldblock/shuffle) up as much as possible, they're all basically the same.

I used to love tanking on my druid, DK, warrior and pally pre-mop they were all different and fun in their own ways.

But now the only tank I can stand playing is monk and sometimes DK, rest are so boring now that they're literally unplayable.

[Deleted]

I shy away from tanking in LFR because of the leadership implications. I prefer to be a part of a raid and not lead it. Leadership's not my thing, so neither is tanking.

feel the same. i'm already leading a 10man raid (because no one else wanted to...) so i dont want to continue this in lfr as well, but somehow people in lfr are convinced that tank=leader. started with people expecting the tanks to explain new wings. Bosses like lei shen or galakras (spoils? havnt been there in lfr and not planning to), where tanks are supposed to set up groups and were responsible if somehow one group managed to fail.
explain, give orders, set groups. why would i want to do 3x as much as any lfr dps f.e.? instant queues? - i already cant go afk/autohit like dps do, so i kinda take this as compensation.
then theres the low tolerance for fails. this doenst really concern me, as i normally finish nhc way before lfr even opens, so my only problem sometimes would be transferring nhc standards to lfr (making things to complicated). but i often see tanks being blamed for just about everything. low dps? "dps is kinda low today", thats as much as dps critic goes, no fear of being kicked or whatever. but an add kills someone who run out of range? "omg noob, kick tank plx!!11!!"
dps doenst now tactic? nobody cares, who would realise it anyway? if you die, you can always be sure there are others dying on the same thing as well, so no one will blame you. tank doenst now tactic? "omg kick him!" "why didnt you read it up before?!? kick him!" (because every lfr raiders is fully prepared). simply telling him what to do? nah, way to much hassle...
(i do get pissed when my co tank doesnt know tactics AND doesnt tell me though. i always explain everything, as long as he/she asks...)

[xytech]

Fresh out from tanking LFR ToT part 3 (yay for having to run obsolete raids to get legendary pieces):
- Dumuru - Taunt when my debuff fades.
- Primodius - Taunt when my debuff fades + kite the boss around the room (ok, this part can be considered tricky)
- Animus - Gather up adds as they become active and move out of dark anima (and after adds are dead, taunt when the other tank gets the anima debuff)

How is that 10 times harder than DPSing is beyond me.

He's probably talking about the average LFR'er, the slacker. It's 10 times harder to afk/slack as a tank then a dps.

[Monkeynuts]

I've always thought (well, since Proving Grounds...) that they should implemenmt NPC tanks for LFR raids, similar to the way the group works in Proving Grounds. Missing a tank? No problem, here's an NPC tank until you're able to find one. You only have 3 of 5 healers? No problem, here's 2 NPC healers until you're able to fill the slots yourself. A DPS missing? etc. You get the idea. Sure there would likely be some issues with the AI but I'd hope they could iron them out; they could set them at an artificially high item level just to ensure that they aren't dead weight. That way groups would be able to get underway that much faster, not have to end up waiting for excessive times to fill drop outs etc.

The worst LFR I had was the second part of SoO; the entire run took me 5 hours 45 minutes - 2 hours of which was spent waiting to fill a 2nd tank slot and the rest on wiping 7-11 times per boss. Nightmare.

[Lochton]

Well, it's not really about the tanks only.

The game already contain way too many DPS players, a tank carries quite some responsibility to the fight. Many tanks sadly opt to avoid LFR in general (like me) to then hopefully find flex or better. LFR has become quite stressful for some as many people wish to rush.

Was lately in a LFR SoO, and we had a leader who did a ready check and starting to pull when missing 1 tank and half of the healers, because he kept saying that we should just go as it is.. even though we failed. Luckily, ran away from the LFR.

Or as Dars said, the lack of the right tanks. (In LFR, the wrong tanks are amazing.. It varies from DK's who want to tank in frost for a faster queue to Holy Paladins speccing for Prot but still think they can use their holy gear)

[MestHoop]

I shy away from tanking in LFR because of the leadership implications. I prefer to be a part of a raid and not lead it. Leadership's not my thing, so neither is tanking.

Sadly this is true, ever since LFD the tanking role has also been the leading role.
I personally don't mind, as I've been maintank and raidleader ever since around launch of TBC, but I can see how people are scared off from tanking in these environments when people expect them to lead the raid and tank at the same time, while taking full responsibility for every mistake aside from "low DPS" and "shit healers (after they die to avoidable mechanics)".

And as others have pointed out: Tanks don't have an instant queue like in LFD, we often have to wait 5 to 15 minutes. This isn't the 15 to 50 minutes that DPS have to wait, but still this seems more like an overall problem than just blaming it on 1 role. Then again, that blaming culture is the home of LFR, so I guess we won't ever get around to actually deducting what area needs improving...

[Deleted]

I've always thought (well, since Proving Grounds...) that they should implemenmt NPC tanks for LFR raids, similar to the way the group works in Proving Grounds. Missing a tank? No problem, here's an NPC tank until you're able to find one. You only have 3 of 5 healers? No problem, here's 2 NPC healers until you're able to fill the slots yourself. A DPS missing? etc. You get the idea. Sure there would likely be some issues with the AI but I'd hope they could iron them out; they could set them at an artificially high item level just to ensure that they aren't dead weight. That way groups would be able to get underway that much faster, not have to end up waiting for excessive times to fill drop outs etc.

The worst LFR I had was the second part of SoO; the entire run took me 5 hours 45 minutes - 2 hours of which was spent waiting to fill a 2nd tank slot and the rest on wiping 7-11 times per boss. Nightmare.

1 npc tank would be 50% of this particular slot. i am absolutly supporting this idea, if the same ratio goes for dps as well. 50% npc dps with "artificially high item level" (as you wrote)? sold! they would only need to do ~80k dps and not die in the 1. or 2. aoe dmg and would already be better than the average lfr dps,....

[khalltusk]

Fresh out from tanking LFR ToT part 3 (yay for having to run obsolete raids to get legendary pieces):
- Dumuru - Taunt when my debuff fades.
- Primodius - Taunt when my debuff fades + kite the boss around the room (ok, this part can be considered tricky)
- Animus - Gather up adds as they become active and move out of dark anima (and after adds are dead, taunt when the other tank gets the anima debuff)

I haven't tanked SoO yet, but in general:
Immerseus - see Dumuru
Panda guys - face the guy with cone aoe out of the raid (actually easier than any of the ToT bosses)
Norushen - see Dumuru + taunt adds as they appear
Sha of Pride - see Dumuru
Galakras - see Animus
Juggernaut - see Dumuru
Dark shamans - see Primodius (both tanks have to taunt)
Nazgrim - see Dumuru
Malkorok - see Dumuru
Spoils - see Animus (no taunting though)
Thok - see Dumuru + pick up add when boss not tankable

All of that while not really having to watch out for anything else or having to worry about any kind of rotation.
How is that 10 times harder than DPSing is beyond me. Please bear in mind I'm talking only about tanking in LFR. Normal/heroic tanking will be probably trickier because tanks have to actually worry about that active mitigation thingy

Its not 10 times harder but is certainly a bit more difficult than DPS. I can only speak for DK but you pretty much have to keep an eye whats going on around you while picking up new adds remembering to taunt when its time and position the boss/add in the right place and ofc use cooldowns. DPS you just let rip until the boss dies and move out of fires. Yeh you have to remember a rotation but unless your damage is really low no one will care. People will care if the tank dies, and thus I would say it has far more personal responsibility than DPS rather than actual difficulty.

[Deleted]

LFR the other day we lost a tank, waiting ages. DPS steps up and says i can try OT'ing but the tactics aren't something i have memorized (for tanking at least). Group agrees and then totally annihilates him when he makes 1 mistake "WTF ??? lolfail tank go play....".

why would i as a DPS watching this unfold think to myself "i know ill roll a tank!" people get treated like shit, you end up just having shit, not people.