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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    These "carriers" are a myth. I very rarely saw anyone in full normal gear at any point in ToT LFR let alone someone with a piece or two of heroic gear.

    There would typically be 1-2 DPS with some normal and valor gear doing much higher DPS than the rest of the group, and as far as "carrying" goes, that was it.

    LFR hasn't "lost" the people who were "carrying" it. It never had them. The only difference is that the 2nd wing of LFR is tuned funny, excessive boss health drags out the encounters pointlessly, and there is too damn much trash.
    I saw loads of them, I was even one of them (EU). There was usually one healer healing as much as 2½ of the other healers and 3-4 dps doing twice the normal amount, which helps a lot. Raiding culture is richer on the EU servers though (yes, it has been proven) and the average age on players is a few years higher (students here can afford WoW and don't have to work night shifts and stuff like that) than in the US, so I assume you're playing on American servers.

    I'm not a carrier now though, since it's much easier to actually pug normals for legendary quests on new alts.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  2. #142
    Herald of the Titans Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    These "carriers" are a myth. I very rarely saw anyone in full normal gear at any point in ToT LFR let alone someone with a piece or two of heroic gear.

    There would typically be 1-2 DPS with some normal and valor gear doing much higher DPS than the rest of the group, and as far as "carrying" goes, that was it.

    LFR hasn't "lost" the people who were "carrying" it. It never had them. The only difference is that the 2nd wing of LFR is tuned funny, excessive boss health drags out the encounters pointlessly, and there is too damn much trash.
    Totally disagree. In ToT you have people still trying to get the items for the cloak. This lead to the 4-5 geared people making ToT lfr's much better imo. Now its a complete mess.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskymon View Post
    To ease LFR Blizz should, if anything, add even more higher i-lvl gear in to game. This would directly help the struggling donalds.

    While were at it, this gear should also be nonsocketed to avoid difficulties. More stats could be added to gear directly and make it so when the set is complete, it needs no reforging/gemming/enchanting since it can be a handful, especially with tools where you load up a char and press "Calculate".

    UI should be streamlined. One half-screen sized button to do stuff and one button if the game somehow manages to kill you, so you can buff yourself with "Tears Of Noob". Tears of Noob buffs your damage by 500% and makes you immune to any damage. When you get 10 stacks of it you get Aw3zoem dargonslayya title you can proudly wear.

    awesome...

  4. #144
    High Overlord Yuna's Avatar
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    Most "LFR carries" of 530+ players do flex instead of lfr today, counting myself with 560+ mains and 545+ alts when i was constantly running ToT lfr 2-3 times a week, no longer doing carries for "fresh ppl" because there are better options now. Lfr player pool went shit, only crappy alts or "lets afk 30 minutes" with no dedication, skill or know-how.

    Dunno about you Normie, but i usually run LFR and Flex with ppl i know and we always end up on top dps/hps, mainly because we care and we want to finish that damn 3-4 bosses within 20-30 minutes and do not "auto-afk one attack lets die i get gear anyway".

    just my 20 cent

  5. #145
    I don't get how lowering ilvl on timeless isle or increasing ilvl for it is gonna help anyone? You really want the people that will just afk ToT and get enough drops to afk SoO also? If they arent doing enough dps then just boot them after the wipe. They have to que again which will give them at least 30 minutes or more with nothing to do? Not to mention they wont have a guarantee they will end up on the boss they need to finish the wing.

  6. #146
    Dark Shaman = move out of bad, kill adds when they spawn
    Nazgrim = move out of bad, kill adds, don't dps boss when he's in defensive stance

    Compare those 2 fights to Tsulong, Durumu, or Lei Shen. Those are 2 SoO fights with simple mechanics that are going to be complete pushovers in a few weeks. Meanwhile, some of the harder fights from earlier LFRs never really made it to the "1-shot pushover" stage because of complex mechanics.

  7. #147
    raid with your guild?

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuna View Post
    Dunno about you Normie, but i usually run LFR and Flex with ppl i know and we always end up on top dps/hps, mainly because we care and we want to finish that damn 3-4 bosses within 20-30 minutes and do not "auto-afk one attack lets die i get gear anyway".
    You are a rarity. In general, there have always been very few normal raid geared characters in LFR.

    If you are normal raid geared and go into LFR then of course there will be one more normal raid geared person than usual in the group. If you go with a group of normal raid geared people then there will be a group of normal raid geared people "carrying" the rest of the group.

    But if you are someone who solo queues in the US like me, there has as a rule never been more than one or two normal-geared "overperformers" in a typical LFR during MoP.

  9. #149
    Sometimes I will do LFR and I don't know how most of the groups would've done it without me unless they pushed 10 stacks on every boss. Not to be full of myself but take dark shamans for example where I do ~400k dps and the second dps is at 150k max and hes 80k above third etc I just don't even understand

  10. #150
    You don't need that much dps on those bosses anymore. Before nerfs enrage might have been a bit hard on nazgrim, but other than that I don't think dps was that big problem. Bigger problem were tanking and healing, which are more critical in survival at LFR bosses. Of course it doesn't help lot of dps are too dumb to move from stuff on ground.

    The dps deffinetely suck when they do some low 50k-80k dps, but getting 100k or more isn't as simple as one would think. While average item level gives average level of gear, it isn't weighted. Lot of times are much much bigger upgrade(like weapons trinkets) than other less critcal pieces. Good luck trying to do any dps with really shit weapon as melee. It's not going to happen even with perfect playing. Also non optimal stats from timeless gear hinder dps a bit. These hinder even the players that play well. Then you have the average LFR raider that does not have a clue how to play and does not bother to reforge, gem or anything. He won't reach that dps necessairly with very good gear either.

    I haven't had much problem since the first week on 2nd LFR wing, but maybe I'm just lucky. It also matters quite a bit the time when you queue for LFR. Don expect to get really great players at normal raiding times in LFR.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by luc54 View Post
    You don't need that much dps on those bosses anymore. Before nerfs enrage might have been a bit hard on nazgrim, but other than that I don't think dps was that big problem. Bigger problem were tanking and healing, which are more critical in survival at LFR bosses. Of course it doesn't help lot of dps are too dumb to move from stuff on ground.

    The dps deffinetely suck when they do some low 50k-80k dps, but getting 100k or more isn't as simple as one would think. While average item level gives average level of gear, it isn't weighted. Lot of times are much much bigger upgrade(like weapons trinkets) than other less critcal pieces. Good luck trying to do any dps with really shit weapon as melee. It's not going to happen even with perfect playing. Also non optimal stats from timeless gear hinder dps a bit. These hinder even the players that play well. Then you have the average LFR raider that does not have a clue how to play and does not bother to reforge, gem or anything. He won't reach that dps necessairly with very good gear either.

    I haven't had much problem since the first week on 2nd LFR wing, but maybe I'm just lucky. It also matters quite a bit the time when you queue for LFR. Don expect to get really great players at normal raiding times in LFR.
    By and large I think you're 100% right.

    The DPS requirements, except for Nazgrim, are modest ... 70k average is probably way more than enough for any encounter except Nazgrim. Getting 70k on Dark Shaman though can be nigh impossible if melee aren't able to make sense of what the tanks are doing.

    Coming into the raid with at best a 510 weapon, and more likely at best a 476 weapon? Now, that sucks, and it costs casters a bunch too.

  12. #152
    Herald of the Titans RoKPaNda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    because decent people moved on to flex, outside selling q's, set pieces and trinkets; most raiders don't bother with lfr anymore.
    This is getting really old. "Most raiders" never touched LFR to start with because there was no reason to after the first tier this expansion. If a guild was forcing it's members to do so, it was an abusive guild. The reason that LFR right now is less successful than it was last tier is because this tier is new, and every single time a new tier is released we go through this for several weeks before everything is a 1-shot. It happened (to a lesser extent) with Dragon Soul, it happened with HoF, it definitely happened with ToT (Horridon was a wipefest for the first week, Wing 2 wasn't so bad, Wing 3 was a huge wipefest for awhile. Wing 4 I can't say because I didn't even bother. Now SoO is pretty much the same thing.

    Wing 1 has gotten to the point where if it's not all 1-shots it's damn close. Wing 2 is my least favorite, but it's getting better. The last couple times I was there the group only had 1-2 wipes. Wing 3 is currently very easy. And for all this talk of people leaving LFR for Flex, I see heaps of people in every run in LFR that have several Flex pieces, and I see some people with normal mode pieces. Why are they doing LFR? I have no clue, but they still do it.

  13. #153
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    This is getting really old. "Most raiders" never touched LFR to start with because there was no reason to after the first tier this expansion. If a guild was forcing it's members to do so, it was an abusive guild. The reason that LFR right now is less successful than it was last tier is because this tier is new, and every single time a new tier is released we go through this for several weeks before everything is a 1-shot. It happened (to a lesser extent) with Dragon Soul, it happened with HoF, it definitely happened with ToT (Horridon was a wipefest for the first week, Wing 2 wasn't so bad, Wing 3 was a huge wipefest for awhile. Wing 4 I can't say because I didn't even bother. Now SoO is pretty much the same thing.

    Wing 1 has gotten to the point where if it's not all 1-shots it's damn close. Wing 2 is my least favorite, but it's getting better. The last couple times I was there the group only had 1-2 wipes. Wing 3 is currently very easy. And for all this talk of people leaving LFR for Flex, I see heaps of people in every run in LFR that have several Flex pieces, and I see some people with normal mode pieces. Why are they doing LFR? I have no clue, but they still do it.

    I already replied to one of your posts, where you say that "most raiders" didn't bother with LFR before either. If you read the posts, you'll see that it's you who are wrong. Cause before, people went LFR for missing Tier or trinkets and no, it's not being abusive, if you're a Heroic raiding guild. So stop using that term, just because you don't understand or agree with how Heroic raiding guilds work.

    Also, people did LFR for the Legendary quest. Now all the raiders that were on the quest from day one have their cloak and only alts need it.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Sometimes I will do LFR and I don't know how most of the groups would've done it without me unless they pushed 10 stacks on every boss. Not to be full of myself but take dark shamans for example where I do ~400k dps and the second dps is at 150k max and hes 80k above third etc I just don't even understand
    Hmm, you only did Dark Shamans LFR once ... I guess that's enough to generalize though?

    565 fire mage with the cloak, a mere 60 ilevels above the requirements for the instance, I'm sure everyone in LFR wants to send you candy for stopping by to help them out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I already replied to one of your posts, where you say that "most raiders" didn't bother with LFR before either. If you read the posts, you'll see that it's you who are wrong. Cause before, people went LFR for missing Tier or trinkets and no, it's not being abusive, if you're a Heroic raiding guild. So stop using that term, just because you don't understand or agree with how Heroic raiding guilds work.
    Coining one boss and then dropping group, once per week, for one or two or three weeks, is not the same as doing LFR every week.

    Anyway, except for the tiny number of specs that get broken each tier by OP trinkets, it's not so much abusive as just dumb to go into LFR if you have normal mode gear.

  15. #155
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Hmm, you only did Dark Shamans LFR once ... I guess that's enough to generalize though?

    565 fire mage with the cloak, a mere 60 ilevels above the requirements for the instance, I'm sure everyone in LFR wants to send you candy for stopping by to help them out.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Coining one boss and then dropping group, once per week, for one or two or three weeks, is not the same as doing LFR every week.

    Anyway, except for the tiny number of specs that get broken each tier by OP trinkets, it's not so much abusive as just dumb to go into LFR if you have normal mode gear.

    True, that coining one or 2 bosses just to drop group is not the same as actually doing LFR every week. But raiders who were benched on say Horridon, would still have to do Jin'rokh, unless they wanted a deserter debuff. Then there were alts. Alts that you couldn't do Normal ToT on yet, cause their gear sucked too much. Those alts you'd do LFR on, to catch up on gear. Those same alts are now running Flex in stead. I'm not saying that it's only due to Flex but it does have a rather big impact.

    You clearly don't understand how much Tier bonus or a specific trinket can boost your dps. Even Heroic raiders did LFR for some of those items. You may think it's stupid but even now, a Hunter and a Warrior tank from my guild went LFR to get a specific trinket. They had obviously already done both Normal/Heroic and Flex but the trinkets didn't drop for them. So while it may seem abusive, dumb or w/e to you and others who don't raid at that level, it makes perfectly sense to us.

    It's not about the ilvl alone. It's the effect of the trinket. The trinket the Warrior tank was after, is the one that reduces AoE effects. He specifically wanted it for Heroic Malkorok.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2013-10-15 at 03:30 AM.

  16. #156
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    I actually agree with you, and typically I don't agree with these type of threads. I spent all day yesterday (I'm home sick, sniff sniff) running all of the LFR's on my priest as disc, instead of my usual shadow. It was incredibly painful once I hit SoO. 6 stacks of determination to down Nazgirm.....SIX! The most I have ever seen was 3, I honestly didn't think you could get more than 3, why would need more? To be honest the group was just full of clueless players, I don't know if item level would had made much of a difference. When you have 4 players yelling 'Defensive : STOP ATTACKING' and at least 5 people keep attacking, you're going to have a bad time.

    I myself made a major blunder last night and was kicked from my first group ever (it mad me sadder than I expected). My heals were really low, (40k at my best...yeah that low), not the lowest on the chart, but should have been better and I know it. I have never healed before and had no business going into SoO without more practice in the earlier raids. I did fine on Gal, Iron Jugg, and Nazgrim. But the shaman was hard for me to heal through, couldn't break 50k on the Shammy fight. (I queued twice, first time ended up at Nazgrim, second was a fresh run.)

    I'm not geared with timeless pieces mind you, but it was basically the same situation. I had the ilvl to get in but lacked the experience. I should have practiced healing a few more times on the older raids before stepping foot in Org. Same with the timeless folks. You have the ilvl to get in....but do you really have the experience?

    So if you were in a SoO last night with a Disc panda priest who was doing lowly hps...it was I, and I apologize Thanks for not being really mean about it though

  17. #157
    Pit Lord Radio's Avatar
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    As much as it is a noble goal to have people learn to do these fights and do appropriate DPS, I think the effort is just making LFR far more painful and toxic than it needs to be. And to top it off, a lot of people DON'T WANT TO LEARN.

    Some changes that would make LFR life in Siege much better (from what I've seen):
    Immerseus: Tank swap removed, Blobs move slower
    Protectors: Lengthen time required to finish them off, have less Banes go out, give Garrote a duration, lower damage on Inferno Strike
    Norushen: Pretty much fine now, maybe remove tank swap, stop currently active tank from being able to be ported into the realm automatically
    Sha: Trivialise the swelling pride explosion side effects at 25, 50 and 75
    Galakras: Remove the knockback
    Iron Juggernaut: Let all classes easily pick up crawlers, lessen knockback on shock pulse
    Dark Shaman: Remove tank swap, increase cooldown on all effects and spread them out more
    Nazgrim: Epic nerf Ravagers
    Malkorok: Slow down void zone explosions, tune down explosions and breath, lower blood rage
    Spoils: No enrage timer, cap on maximum boxes openable, less stacks on set to blow


    While these changes are heavy handed and would make the fights for the most part shit easy/braindead/whatever, it would vastly improve quality of life in LFR and I might actually start running my alts through it again without wanting to drive an ice pick up the heads of half the people I end up grouped with.

  18. #158
    Mechagnome Zevoa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    When i do LFRs i usually just watch a movie and tab in occasionally. When the movie is over its usually at 4-5 stacks of determination.
    Not the only one I see.
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  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Norushen: Pretty much fine now, maybe remove tank swap, stop currently active tank from being able to be ported into the realm automatically

    Iron Juggernaut: Let all classes easily pick up crawlers, lessen knockback on shock pulse
    Yeah, the auto-porting of the tank is a pain in the ass on Norushen. It's pretty much an insta-gib for whatever unlucky sap picks up one of the large adds before the remaining tank spots it. I've died to "wtf it meleed me" a couple of times now.

    Having everyone be able to pick up crawlers without taking excessive damage would be great, frankly. It would give people something interesting to do.

  20. #160
    The Patient Azome's Avatar
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    I just had a 9 months break and I don't believe that the skill level in LFR has gone down, it was bad before and still is. Timeless Isle, for me atleast, have meant that i could get up to speed and start doing Flex with my guild very fast and I'm happy about that

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