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  1. #1

    Holy in 5.4, still 0.6%

    keeping tabs on Holy since HoF and I can say we have not come far nmbers wise in PVE. PVP numbers are way way up so that is good. In pve we still suffer and that is no mystery, SoO is no place for Holy priest, why is that?

    mastery is 90% overhealing
    Prayer of healing is group based while damage is not.
    Circle of healing heals 5 targets for 5% of thier heal give or take with a cool down
    Chakra has a long cool down
    and our spells are only par if in the right chakra, if we are not it's more of a nerf than a buff.
    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html

    PvE Classes distribution
    Last Database Update : 13 Oct 2013 - Players with 6/14 or more bosses killed in heroic mode (T16) - 355,302 guilds and 27,677,760 players in the database

    Holy Priest 0.6%

  2. #2
    Do you know what kind of healer paragon used on the world first garrosh kill on 10 man hc?
    They solo healed it, but what class and what specialization do you think it was?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ettan View Post
    Do you know what kind of healer paragon used on the world first garrosh kill on 10 man hc?
    They solo healed it, but what class and what specialization do you think it was?
    It was also solo healed by a shaman. What Paragon does is of little relevance to the greater scheme of class balance.

  4. #4
    To maximize priest healing, you have to be able to setup groups so your group-targeted abilities will always hit the right people in the fight at any given time.

    Holy priests are good if played well, disc priests are just better when paired with non absorby healer like druid/monk.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  5. #5
    as OP just mentioned 90% of mastery over heals. When solo healing , there will be minimal overhealing which boosts holy to phenomenal healing levels. However in normal cases with other healers especially absorb based healers , Holy's numbers will not be that great, but that is if you care about numbers than killing bosses.

  6. #6
    Why would anyone want to play that garbage?

    0 smart heals
    lolchakra
    lolmastery
    lolrenew 1/3 the coefficient of rejuvenate
    lolsanctuary

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    I assume you are talking about 10m. In 25m Holy Priests are very good.

    Also this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasani View Post
    To maximize priest healing, you have to be able to setup groups so your group-targeted abilities will always hit the right people in the fight at any given time.

    Holy priests are good if played well, disc priests are just better when paired with non absorby healer like druid/monk.
    If your raid leader doesn't sort the groups right, then priests are going to cry, we usually sort the groups like so:

    Group 1: Tanks + 2 Melee + 1 Healer(another melee if we 5 heal)
    Group 2: 5 Melee
    Group 3: 5 Ranged
    Group 4: 5 Ranged
    Group 5: 5 Healers(Current roster: 2x Resto Shaman, 2x Resto Druid, 1x Disc priest, 1x Holy Priest)

  8. #8
    I can only speak for 25's and 11 hc bosses experience so far (but ofc, some I did as Disc). Our potency is there, we are nowadays just to slow with our PoH's and our CoH is healing for 30k per target, EoL 6 seconds is just too slow to. We've become overrun by smartheals and absorbs so we can no longer show our potential. Most dmg patterns in SoO don't suit Holy too well this tier either. Spread random dmg is common with bursts on the raid (being healed up in a couple of sec), and Chakra don't go well together with mixed AoE/ST healing. If you look at previous tiers, you can see they had Chakra CD in their head designing dmg clearly. Not the case here usually. LFR can be much more fun to heal as Hpri, if there are bad healers in the raid, than heroic raids. Too bad, cause finally we got the mana to /flex (funny thing is I reforge away spirit and have less now than in t15).

    Also, we need "utility" badly. Something above our healing done.

    But atleast I win every time, on the Overhealing meters So consensus? Holy is to prefer when underhealing stuff where you still wont need absorbs or extra dmg.

    Just waiting for 6.0 now. Besides revamping Holy Priests, I do hope they do something about every other heal in the game now being smart.

    Btw, where did the Holy Paradox thread go?
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-10-14 at 09:31 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    I can only speak for 25's and 11 hc bosses experience so far (but ofc, some I did as Disc). Our potency is there, we are nowadays just to slow with our PoH's and our CoH is healing for 30k per target, EoL 6 seconds is just too slow to. We've become overrun by smartheals and absorbs so we can no longer show our potential. Most dmg patterns in SoO don't suit Holy too well this tier either. Spread random dmg is common with bursts on the raid (being healed up in a couple of sec), and Chakra don't go well together with mixed AoE/ST healing. If you look at previous tiers, you can see they had Chakra CD in their head designing dmg clearly. Not the case here usually. LFR can be much more fun to heal as Hpri, if there are bad healers in the raid, than heroic raids. Too bad, cause finally we got the mana to /flex (funny thing is I reforge away spirit and have less now than in t15).

    Also, we need "utility" badly. Something above our healing done.

    But atleast I win every time, on the Overhealing meters So consensus? Holy is to prefer when underhealing stuff where you still wont need absorbs or extra dmg.

    Just waiting for 6.0 now. Besides revamping Holy Priests, I do hope they do something about every other heal in the game now being smart.

    Btw, where did the Holy Paradox thread go?
    Who said they are going to revamp Hpriests? If anything, it seems to me like they're stubborn (lazy) with Chakra. But its not just Chakra, its the spec. I love the spec but it has so many issues, for example, Spirit of Redemption, how laughable is that? An ability I need to DIE in order to take advantage of, seriously? Maybe make it a self ress like shamans have? Then we, for once, would have something disc priests crave (otherwise just remove it or give me a glyph to remove it, all it gives me is a silly debuff to cancel when I need to release corpse during wipes). We need utility and we need a spell update - remove Sanctuary, make CoH something worth popping, get rid of chakra (NO shorter cd, just delete the very essence of it or change it completely, the flashy spark can stay though), change our mastery - the amount of overhealing is just a joke, and the recent changes don't make it better. At least make a percentage of the overhealing becoming smart healing on the raid, so its not completely worthless. As for PoH, while I don't mind it not being a smart heal (I would much prefer the game to have a lot less smart heals), it just doesn't fit current raid design aside of few niche fights.

    Yes, there are things I love about holy. I love GS (and it doesn't seem to bug alot lately for me), I love my Lightwell, I love Serenity + Renew refreshing, I love the level 90 talents (all 3 of them are nice and have their own pros/cons). BH is awesome (even the glyphed one) I love CoH aside of the fact it heals for too little. I love DH.

    The real saving grace for Holy the entire xPac was one talent for me though - Divine Insight.

  10. #10
    High Overlord Nokami's Avatar
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    Holypriest is absolutly fine atm.

  11. #11
    If 90% of mastery healing is overhealing or if your heals are being sniped by other healers you're simply running with too many healers. Holy is fine on any fight where troughput is being tested, and guess what, thats the only fights where healing matters anyway. If some disc priest is sniping all your heals for the 90% of the fight where healing is easy, but you are there during the 10% of the fight where healing is needed and people risk being killed you did a good job. And if he ends up being 50% ahead of you on meters it doesnt mean you're a bad healer.

    Healing meters say nothing at all and are completely irrelevant. Theoretical max troughput is far higher for holy then for disc, and thats what matters in the end.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Healing meters say nothing at all and are completely irrelevant. Theoretical max troughput is far higher for holy then for disc, and thats what matters in the end.
    Except your wrong.

    The three best fights for Holy would be these:

    Norushen hc 25 hps top 100 logs: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Norushen/...00000000111111 (Disc superior in output)
    Thok: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Thok_the_...00000000111111 (Disc and Holy almost a tie here)
    Malkorok: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Malkorok/...00000000111111 (Here is the only niched fight Holy really look better on)

    The rest of the fights Disc are so far ahead, and I don't even take Dmg done and PW:B into calcs here, wich also matters.

    So if youre trying to say we are "fine" cause we are 2nd on a niched fight... I just... I don't even! I heard this "Holy has better output" enough. It's simply not true anymore even if you take the top 100 logs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    Who said they are going to revamp Hpriests?

    The real saving grace for Holy the entire xPac was one talent for me though - Divine Insight.
    Hope springs eternal. (and the fact GC did ask me/us how we would remake Chakra)

    And yeah, my favoutire spell even before DI was always PoM. I agree, DI has been holding us up, especially in t15 with the set bonus.
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-10-14 at 03:03 PM.

  13. #13
    I play holy main spec, 2 man healing SoO normals. We are still progressing but I am able to pretty much spam heal without going OOM. My healing partner for the most part has been a shaman, and on certain fights we both finish out at 200k hps. To me holy feels very strong, if not too strong at the moment. I am guessing you are doing something very wrong if you are failing at holy.

  14. #14
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Except your wrong.

    The three best fights for Holy would be these:

    Norushen hc 25 hps top 100 logs: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Norushen/...00000000111111 (Disc superior in output)
    Thok: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Thok_the_...00000000111111 (Disc and Holy almost a tie here)
    Malkorok: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Malkorok/...00000000111111 (Here is the only niched fight Holy really look better on)

    The rest of the fights Disc are so far ahead, and I don't even take Dmg done and PW:B into calcs here, wich also matters.

    So if youre trying to say we are "fine" cause we are 2nd on a niched fight... I just... I don't even! I heard this "Holy has better output" enough. It's simply not true anymore even if you take the top 100 logs.
    Logs are skewing this on the basis of bringing too many healers and overhealing. Disc has like, 10% overhealing compared to holy.

    Norushen #1 Disc = 4 healers and has 24% overheal. Divine Star had 42% overheal because of fishing for DA procs.
    Norushen #1 Holy = 4 healers (no Disc) and has 31% overheal - and you damn well know if there was a Disc in the raid this would be different. He also had 45% overheal on Divine Hymn which means all of those EoLs went to overheal too, lot of lost healing there. Not to mention the log for the HPriest is 30 seconds shorter.

    Also, look at the graphs -
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...633#Discoelpay
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m...&e=834#Madison

    Disc healing is so choppy and inconsistent. Holy provides the smoothing of raid and still higher burst potential than Disc can.

    Disc and Holy are very different healing types and comparing them as to "which is superior" is really just stupid.

    Can we just drop the Disc vs Holy who is better drama already? Both specs are great. Most people prefer Disc so you'll probably see more of it because of that. Absorbs are also useful but in an environment where you have more than 1 Priest you want both specs.

  15. #15
    Do you really want to call it stupid to talk about Disc vs holy? It's still a very relevant topic.

    I don't agree with "Most people prefer Disc so you'll probably see more of it because of that.", I think it's more like: at the start of every raid, you see a tendancy Holy players increase in numbers vastly. As the progress goes on, many Holy go Disc cause it's simply better in most cases, and many against their own will.

    I think there are many who now play Disc who would rather play Holy.

    "Logs are scewed", sure, most specc go down in healing while playing with absorbers, but these are the top 100 logs! "Holy overheals", well if the latter is the case, then it's time to try adjust it perhaps?

  16. #16
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Do you really want to call it stupid to talk about Disc vs holy? It's still a very relevant topic.

    I don't agree with "Most people prefer Disc so you'll probably see more of it because of that.", I think it's more like: at the start of every raid, you see a tendancy Holy players increase in numbers vastly. As the progress goes on, many Holy go Disc cause it's simply better in most cases, and many against their own will.

    I think there are many who now play Disc who would rather play Holy.

    "Logs are scewed", sure, most specc go down in healing while playing with absorbers, but these are the top 100 logs! "Holy overheals", well if the latter is the case, then it's time to try adjust it perhaps?
    There are SO MANY VARIABLES to healing "meters" that show in logs that you can only take them with a grain of salt. Disc provides absorbs like no other class, that is what makes them so good. That is precisely what I said.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dologalot View Post
    I play holy main spec, 2 man healing SoO normals. We are still progressing but I am able to pretty much spam heal without going OOM. My healing partner for the most part has been a shaman, and on certain fights we both finish out at 200k hps. To me holy feels very strong, if not too strong at the moment. I am guessing you are doing something very wrong if you are failing at holy.
    Yeah, I guess all the top 100 loggers are failers.

  18. #18
    Disc pulls much higher numbers when overgeared i.e. sniping. The most popular content (LFR, flex, normals) involves massive levels of overgearing. Most people like higher numbers. So, most people play disc.

    For every Jhazrun blasting through bleeding edge progression, there are tens of thousands of holy priests in LFR thinking "why do I even bother healing when the holy pala and disc priest snipe all the healing" and promptly rerolling disc.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    There are SO MANY VARIABLES to healing "meters" that show in logs that you can only take them with a grain of salt. Disc provides absorbs like no other class, that is what makes them so good. That is precisely what I said.
    And what are the variables scewing up the top 100 Holy logs then? Cause I dont hink many of them are with a Disc in the raid "scewing things up" for them?

  20. #20
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    And what are the variables scewing up the top 100 Holy logs then? Cause I dont hink many of them are with a Disc in the raid "scewing things up" for them?
    I'm not going to dig through anymore logs. I was just pointing it out since people seem to forget. Logs are to be taken with a grain of salt. Holy is in a very good place and the people that can't see it are people that don't play the class well or understand it thoroughly. Disc is far easier to "top the meters" and sadly a lot of people value that over what Holy brings to the table. I'm not saying Holy is perfect, cuz it's not. I'm just being a "middle man" here and trying to get people to not forgot about healing meters.

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