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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Yes, I doubt the lvl 90 talents was meant to be used for powerfull shieldblanketing (and this is mostly due to the fact devs werent able to implement the target cap) so Aegis should be removed as a hotfix. It would also make secondary stats for Disc much more balanced.
    Sure, we should totally inform Blizzard about this, because I'm 100% sure they didn't think disc would use t90 talents like this. It's not like they said it can make priest healers overpowered or anything. I bet they were only talking about holy though, because you know, so many people play holy and Blizzard talks so much about holy... Or was it non-disc? I even remember Isheria saying the buff won't last a week.

    While we're removing DA, are we removing crits and mastery from t90 abilities for holy too btw or are they fine (although OP as you said numerous times)? Or are we going back to t90 with diminishing returns, you know, when priests were the worst healer for pretty much any fight on PTR?

    I get how annoying it can be to not being able to play the spec you like for tier after tier, but I'm sorry, you can't remove everything from disc just to make holy more viable. Let's remove Atonement or make it clunky and borderline useless, let's remove DA from t90 talents... Anything else you want removed? Disc should just spam PoH with AA up I guess, but with a crit based DA not guaranteed because we know that's too good too and too bad we can't fish for DI procs, but oh well, maybe then holy can compete for the meters...

    There are things you say which I agree with, but sometimes you just sound like you're just bitter and wouldn't mind at all if disc was the worst spec ever... And that seems very strange to me.

  2. #102
    Healing is not about having the most heals on the meters, it is about keeping people alive. People complain about absorbs sniping their heals, but you need to realise that bubbles + pure hots is like a match made in heaven. The bubbles give the hots time to tick whilst giving people more effective health for a few seconds to stop them from being exploded.

    Holy only looks bad on easy content. Guardian spirit is a powerful cooldown, don't forget it's existence, it keeps people alive.

  3. #103
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laplacedemon View Post
    While we're removing DA, are we removing crits and mastery from t90 abilities for holy too btw or are they fine (although OP as you said numerous times)? Or are we going back to t90 with diminishing returns, you know, when priests were the worst healer for pretty much any fight on PTR?

    There are things you say which I agree with, but sometimes you just sound like you're just bitter and wouldn't mind at all if disc was the worst spec ever... And that seems very strange to me.
    I would love to get lvl 90 talents nerfed for both speccs, yes! They are making up for way too much of both speccs total healing, but combine that with Aegis and you are really out in the blue since the spells make so powerful healing the shields get ridiculous.

    And I make no secret I am bitter yes, after being subpar for so long. Disc have so many advantages over Holy and it is NOT only meters, but also devs forgets Disc also do dmg, have the ability to shield well and provides the raid with PWB wich wont show as healing like Holys Hymn but sure can soak a whole lot of dmg to.
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-10-19 at 04:33 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Powell View Post
    If you watch the video, the entire fight, he didn't change his Chakra once. Hows that a good class mechanic?
    not saying its great but he does switch to dps chakra for the vision phases before the heroic only one until annihilates start and also uses sanctuary chakra here and there mostly for divine hymn

  5. #105
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willfox View Post
    Holy only looks bad on easy content. Guardian spirit is a powerful cooldown, don't forget it's existence, it keeps people alive.
    Maybe I missed something here, but since when is hc raiding content considered as easy? GS would be awsome if it didnt bug so much when used reactively.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by laplacedemon View Post
    Sure, we should totally inform Blizzard about this, because I'm 100% sure they didn't think disc would use t90 talents like this. It's not like they said it can make priest healers overpowered or anything. I bet they were only talking about holy though, because you know, so many people play holy and Blizzard talks so much about holy... Or was it non-disc? I even remember Isheria saying the buff won't last a week.

    While we're removing DA, are we removing crits and mastery from t90 abilities for holy too btw or are they fine (although OP as you said numerous times)? Or are we going back to t90 with diminishing returns, you know, when priests were the worst healer for pretty much any fight on PTR?

    I get how annoying it can be to not being able to play the spec you like for tier after tier, but I'm sorry, you can't remove everything from disc just to make holy more viable. Let's remove Atonement or make it clunky and borderline useless, let's remove DA from t90 talents... Anything else you want removed? Disc should just spam PoH with AA up I guess, but with a crit based DA not guaranteed because we know that's too good too and too bad we can't fish for DI procs, but oh well, maybe then holy can compete for the meters...

    There are things you say which I agree with, but sometimes you just sound like you're just bitter and wouldn't mind at all if disc was the worst spec ever... And that seems very strange to me.
    Do you seriously think there's no problem with priest lvl 90 talents at the moment, especially for disc? Look at the top parses for each fight- divine aegis is often 40-60% of heals, and where does that proc from? Discs for the most part doesn't cast PoH outside of spirit shell, and PoM is minimal for most fights. It's all from atonement and lvl 90 talents. Atonement accounts for about 10% of healing, so a huge portion of divine aegis is from lvl 90 talents. Who cares if 80% goes to overheal, when that one ability combined with divine aegis accounts for a majority of your total healing?

    I seriously think there's something wrong when pushing one heal ability every 15/25/40 seconds accounts for a majority of your hps. In some cases, much more than a majority... like for Thok people are getting 70% of their heals from just divine star and its aegis procs.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Blergy View Post
    Atonement accounts for about 10% of healing, so a huge portion of divine aegis is from lvl 90 talents.
    Not really. The reason DA ranks so high is because disc runs with high crit and EVERY crit procs DA, be it from atonement, PoM, PoH, t90 talents, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blergy View Post
    like for Thok people are getting 70% of their heals from just divine star and its aegis procs.
    Yes, well timed DS is a very strong talent for this fight. But again, DA comes not only from DS, it's also from PoM, PoH, and flash heal / binding heal spamming once you can't pull PoH.

  8. #108
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Not really. The reason DA ranks so high is because disc runs with high crit and EVERY crit procs DA, be it from atonement, PoM, PoH, t90 talents, etc.



    Yes, well timed DS is a very strong talent for this fight. But again, DA comes not only from DS, it's also from PoM, PoH, and flash heal / binding heal spamming once you can't pull PoH.
    As he said; Disc don't do much other than Atonment+lvl90 talents atm, PoH almost exclusively with SS. Same as Isheria described.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    As he said; Disc don't do much other than Atonment+lvl90 talents atm, PoH almost exclusively with SS. Same as Isheria described.
    Change atonement for Heal / GH / Renew, SS for CoH and PWS for PoH and you can make the same flawed generalization about holy.

    Different specs, different toolkits, different gameplays, both good and viable.

  10. #110
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Change atonement for Heal / GH / Renew, SS for CoH and PWS for PoH and you can make the same flawed generalization about holy.

    Different specs, different toolkits, different gameplays, both good and viable.
    You really equalizing Atonment with Holys Heal/GH/Renew, and SS with... CoH...? No, sorry, Holy is nowhere near Disc simplicity when it comes to choosing spells (and actually choosing targets to heal).

    Atonment shouldn't be as good as actually target players and heal them, but it is because the game autoheal the lowest target as the Atonment cast finish for you, so it's a failsafe option all the time. It's like spamming a Heal/GH rotation blindly, but it will always hit the lowest HP target.

    I think Disc should try to heal with Heal/GH and Renew for once
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-10-20 at 12:24 AM.

  11. #111
    Just look at the top parse for Thok 25H, focusing on the final screech phase where most damage occurs.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...1/?s=793&e=898

    There is very little PoM/PoH and atonement going on. 80% of his healing is from DA and DS. That's over 70% from one ability.

    Look at the top Galakras parse-

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3454&e=4078

    Again, the vast majority is from DA, DS, and some atonement. 2% from PoH, and he cast PoM like once or twice. No other non-absorb heals.

    The issue is the lvl 90 talents. Nerf them, and you will nerf a large chunk of disc's OP-ness. Holy will also be hurt, but not nearly as much as disc. Most disc aren't even using lvl 90 talents as a heal, but as an absorb- the raid can be full and they'd use it. That is the issue.

    One other thing that irks me is that the best fight for holy this tier for throughput (H-Malkorak) isn't even the best spec for the fight. I prefer going disc for that fight because absorbs on top of the ancient barrier is critical for keeping people alive during phase 1 (melee absorbing bubbles, ranged absorbing puddles).

  12. #112
    @Nobodysbaby:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    ... and you can make the same flawed generalization about holy.
    It really is a pain trying to have a conversation if you won't read anything outside of your own head.

    @Blergy

    You can't really make a generalization out of thok, since:
    - the mechanics of the fight force most healers (not only priests) to make uncommon uses of their toolkits.
    - If you watch the same logs closely, you'll notice Lyrixe's was a rather lucky run, with over 60% crits on DS.
    - Damage in thok isn't constant, it comes in pulses, so PoM healing will be lower than usual.
    - There is little atonement going on because during stacked phase it's much less efficient than DS and IF+PoH, and in phase 2 the healing needs are reduced so it's more of a mana regen phase (you can see that on the graph).
    - With a stacked group and locked out of PoH it is obvious that the bulk of her healing will come from well timed (and rather lucky in this case) divine stars and the DA from previous crits.

  13. #113
    Look at other logs then. There's nothing <flawed> about his observations about disc. PoM is not a significant part of disc heals. PoH is not a significant part of disc heals outside of spirit shell. Flash heal and binding heal are almost never used. A majority of heals is from lvl 90 talents and their corresponding aegis.

    Also, 60% crit rating is not luck. I have 45% crit raid buffed, and with 2pc it goes up to 55%, and that's with lots of mastery pieces. The log also has very few PWS casts, not even for rapture. You would think PWS would be beneficial as its instacast but they didn't even use it and still pumped out the #1 parse.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Blergy View Post
    PoM is not a significant part of disc heals. PoH is not a significant part of disc heals outside of spirit shell. Flash heal and binding heal are almost never used. A majority of heals is from lvl 90 talents and their corresponding aegis.
    And atonement. And PWS. For the nth time, it's a different spec with a a different toolkit and a different playstyle. Nothing wrong with holy though. The problem is that you want to compare disc to a raw throughput spec: It is not. It works different. It is not better, it is different. It is not more powerful, it synergizes with other healers in a different way. Disc having different mechanics doesn't make holy worse. It is just a different spec, with different strengths and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blergy View Post
    You would think PWS would be beneficial as its instacast but they didn't even use it and still pumped out the #1 parse.
    It's instacast, but it's single target, while the damage is raidwide. It's much more efficient to PoH with a chance of DA, particularly if you're running with 4 paladins (4 devotion auras + 4 BoPs).

  15. #115
    you have to count the damage of a disc priest because it exists. boss will die faster and damage is prevented. if you count absorbs, which is damage prevention, then you have to count damage. how many millions of points of damage is prevented by disc priest dps? a hell of a lot more than a holy priest does in healing.

    but even if you ignore damage, a disc priest does quite well anyways. what's the point of a holy priest?

  16. #116
    im pretty sure moonkin is that low aswel.

  17. #117
    Well, it is the class Blizzard stuck with super crappy lightwell for, what, 5 years? Should be used to lack of attention by now :P

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    Well, it is the class Blizzard stuck with super crappy lightwell for, what, 5 years? Should be used to lack of attention by now :P
    Super crappy lightwell was the most mana efficient heal in the game during those 5 years (at times when mana actually mattered a lot btw). The problem wasn't the lightwell, it was super crappy raiders that didn't click it.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    Well, it is the class Blizzard stuck with super crappy lightwell for, what, 5 years? Should be used to lack of attention by now :P
    I love my Lightwell, and its the best cd I have on PG Endless as holy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blergy View Post
    Do you seriously think there's no problem with priest lvl 90 talents at the moment, especially for disc? Look at the top parses for each fight- divine aegis is often 40-60% of heals, and where does that proc from? Discs for the most part doesn't cast PoH outside of spirit shell, and PoM is minimal for most fights. It's all from atonement and lvl 90 talents. Atonement accounts for about 10% of healing, so a huge portion of divine aegis is from lvl 90 talents. Who cares if 80% goes to overheal, when that one ability combined with divine aegis accounts for a majority of your total healing?

    I seriously think there's something wrong when pushing one heal ability every 15/25/40 seconds accounts for a majority of your hps. In some cases, much more than a majority... like for Thok people are getting 70% of their heals from just divine star and its aegis procs.
    There's this slight thing called fun factor, and I would take holy over disc in that regard any day of the week. Disc has always bored me, but this whole xPac especially, disc was a one flavor spec. On 5.1 it was the uber-super Spirit Shell, on 5.2 it was atonement, and now its the level 90 talents that proc DA. And what do you cast other than that? Not much. Yeah, you have access to PoM and PoH, FH and BH, most things that holy has as well, but like you say yourself, you barely use them as disc. You spam atonement and use the level 90s on cd, with cd usage according to fight mechanics, reminds me of arcan mages at their worst days. Holy don't have those "I WIN" buttons (aside of hymn which is a 3 minute cd), and has to use the whole package to excel, and use it with considering mana, serendipity, chakras, etc.

    I'm not getting into which is tougher to play, as I believe every spec is easy to play initially but tough to master. I do, however, believe disc needs more healing spells they can use, less absorbs, and especially no one button wonders that do everything.

    For an HC guild that doesn't care about fast progression, but more casual progression, I would deffo go holy for as many fights as I can. I play this game to have fun.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Blergy View Post
    Holy will also be hurt, but not nearly as much as disc. Most disc aren't even using lvl 90 talents as a heal, but as an absorb- the raid can be full and they'd use it. That is the issue.
    I am *NOT* saying t90 talents are out of control, but somehow you guys seem to not realize how bad disc AND holy were without those. Don't you guys remember the PTR? Both priests specs were incredibly bad, at least on 25s. I'll just quote one of Isheria's posts before the buff:

    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    If you want to actually be useful in 5.4 just play another healing class, priests have received minimal changes while other healers got heavily buffed like shamans and druids. Maybe now that the patch will go live blizzard will wake up and make some changes after everyone starts complaining since they didn't bother doing that during the entire ptr session.
    Removing diminishing returns was a band-aid fix and as we know, since Blizzard doesn't like big changes during the expansion, that's all we are going to get. And you can't reintroduce the diminishing returns without giving some changes to holy and disc.

    Being that reliant on t90 talents does suck and it is really easy to do good both as disc or holy, but get used to it because we won't be getting any big changes until the new expansion/pre-patch.

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