Dave Ramsey on the ACA

[bayushisan]

Exactly. And also, high drug prices (that are covered by the insurance companies) actually might be good. It encourages companies to get into pharmaceutical research and find cures faster. If you were to regulate drug prices, the profits would go down, there would be less self interest, and less companies trying less to find cures for conditions and diseases.

Excuse me while I say bullshit. The company that makes Gleevec, the medicine I have to take to make sure a GIST tumor doesn't come back is $6,000/month. Even the doctors think this crap is immoral at this point. The company has long since made back it's research and development funds, ever since the first billion dollars if I remember correctly. This same company is actively suing to keep a cheaper generic from entering the market so there can be no market competition for their product. Generics exist for a lot of meds, and even those are ridiculously expensive at times.

There's nothing wrong with making a profit, but there is a difference between making a profit and price gouging.

[Invection]

We already pay the healthcare costs the uninsured rack up in the ER via higher rates on everyone who does pay the hospital.
Mittens had a pretty good summary of why we need everyone insured back in 2005:
''No more 'free riding,' if you will, where an individual says: 'I'm not going to pay, even though I can afford it. I'm not going to get insurance, even though I can afford it. I'm instead going to just show up and make the taxpayers pay for me,' "

Not a single cent of your premiums for insurance go to paying for uninsured people. The government pays for what charity's and free hospital assistance programs will not. When the government pays, they also pay for pennies on a dollar for what they owe and the rest is put into tax credits/reductions.

[Annoying]

He starts off with math.

And halfway through: "Half of Americans don't pay anything" while completely missing that the bottom 80% of Americans make a whopping 7% of the money, and the bottom 50% of Americans make just 1.1% of the money. It's just math.

[Masark]

Not a single cent of your premiums for insurance go to paying for uninsured people.

They pay the higher bills that the hospitals charge to make up the losses they take on the uninsured.

[Invection]

They pay the higher bills that the hospitals charge to make up the losses they take on the uninsured.

ask anyone in medical billing, you do not pay a cent for uninsured. Please don't regurgitate stuff in the media like its a fact. The AMA/RUC determines medical pricing based on this formula

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/danmu...MAformula1.png

As I stated, the hospitals take tax credits, deductions, and the government reimburses hospitals. Your premiums are based on what on a negotiated price. The self pay individuals who recieve the highest possible cost are the ones who absorb uninsured.

[chrisberb]

ask anyone in medical billing, you do not pay a cent for uninsured. Please don't regurgitate stuff in the media like its a fact. The AMA/RUC determines medical pricing based on this formula

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/danmu...MAformula1.png

As I stated, the hospitals take tax credits, deductions, and the government reimburses hospitals. Your premiums are based on what on a negotiated price. The self pay individuals who recieve the highest possible cost are the ones who absorb uninsured.

Ohhhh, so what you're saying is that rather than people making up the difference in their insurance, it's just made up in taxes. Got it.

[obdigore]

Ohhhh, so what you're saying is that rather than people making up the difference in their insurance, it's just made up in taxes. Got it.

Correct, it is why the US already pays more money per capita for healthcare than any of those ebil socialized healthcare nations, and that is before the citizens pay for insurance.

[Orbitus]

ask anyone in medical billing, you do not pay a cent for uninsured. Please don't regurgitate stuff in the media like its a fact. The AMA/RUC determines medical pricing based on this formula

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/danmu...MAformula1.png

As I stated, the hospitals take tax credits, deductions, and the government reimburses hospitals. Your premiums are based on what on a negotiated price. The self pay individuals who recieve the highest possible cost are the ones who absorb uninsured.

So you think we don't pay for other peoples medical bills now? Why do you think a dose of Tylenol is $30 at a hospital but $2 for a bottle of 100? Or that you have to pay $3000 for a $250 hip joint replacement?

Just read this article and look at the graph at the bottom. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...280-in-france/
Or get a more in depth one from this one. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...res-in-the-us/
Cost per hospital day? In the US, $3949. Next closest country? $1552 in Chile.
Heart Bypass Surgery? US, $67,583. Ranges from $4500 in Inda to $40,000 in Canada. Why is it so expensive for the US? Because they are trying to make up the people that can't pay for their healthcare in the ER.

[Mormolyce]

Correct, it is why the US already pays more money per capita for healthcare than any of those ebil socialized healthcare nations, and that is before the citizens pay for insurance.

Except Switzerland, according to this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data...care-countries

Still, it's remarkably high given the US has a reputation for having shit all health care.

[obdigore]

Except Switzerland, according to this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data...care-countries

Still, it's remarkably high given the US has a reputation for having shit all health care.

I'd be interested in knowing the dates of that information, because I was under the impression we passed Switzerland for per capita 2012 spending.

[Invection]

So you think we don't pay for other peoples medical bills now? Why do you think a dose of Tylenol is $30 at a hospital but $2 for a bottle of 100? Or that you have to pay $3000 for a $250 hip joint replacement?

Just read this article and look at the graph at the bottom. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...280-in-france/
Or get a more in depth one from this one. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...res-in-the-us/
Cost per hospital day? In the US, $3949. Next closest country? $1552 in Chile.
Heart Bypass Surgery? US, $67,583. Ranges from $4500 in Inda to $40,000 in Canada. Why is it so expensive for the US? Because they are trying to make up the people that can't pay for their healthcare in the ER.

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/danmu...MAformula1.png
Once again, the formula above, is part of a equation when coming to medical costs. Their are many articles which explain why medical cost's are so high, from steril equipment having to come out of a wrapper to yes 30$ tylenol. In the end, that tylenol costs 30$ because the hospital has to inventory it's use, then have someone bring it to the nurse, then have the nurse or other person deliver it. The manner in which hospitals bill is absurd. That 30$ tylenol, at a self pay rate, would be 120$. Self pay, is almost 4x the rate of any insured person. If you think uninsured people have anything to do with the price of any insured person pays then you are gravely mistaken sir. Look at the formula, AMA/RUC SETS THE PRICING FOR MEDICAL PROCEDURES AND TREATMENT, NOWHERE IN THAT FORMULA IS UNINSURED PEOPLE.

here is an article on medical billing and price setting for ya--Tell me where it talks about uninsured people
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro...pricing-cabal/

The reason why the cost's for medical care in this country are absurd is because of insurance companies. Look at the price of contacts and Lasex surgery, which are not covered by insurance.

[Mormolyce]

I'd be interested in knowing the dates of that information, because I was under the impression we passed Switzerland for per capita 2012 spending.

If you click on the info tab:

Overview
Bloomberg ranked countries based on the efficiency of their health-care systems.

Methodology
Each country was ranked on three criteria: life expectancy (weighted 60%), relative per capita cost of health care (30%); and absolute per capita cost of health care (10%). Countries were scored on each criterion and the scores were weighted and summed to obtain their efficiency scores. Relative cost is health cost per capita as a percentage of GDP per capita. Absolute cost is total health expenditure, which covers preventive and curative health services, family planning, nutrition activities and emergency aid. Included were countries with populations of at least five million, GDP per capita of at least $5,000 and life expectancy of at least 70 years.

Source(s)
World Bank, International Monetary Fund, World Health Organization, Hong Kong Department of Health

Last Updated
August 19, 2013

So it's recent assuming that update date is correct. But of course, different agencies pulling different figures often leads to inconsistencies.

[Milchshake]

If you click on the info tab:



So it's recent assuming that update date is correct. But of course, different agencies pulling different figures often leads to inconsistencies.

Sure Switzerland pays $500 more per capita than the US. but per the Article they Get twice the efficiency (60) than the US (30). So they get alot more value.


And better life expectancy.

[FathomFear]

My experience in watching Americans debate this issue is that there tends to be underlying philosophy differences at play. Some people believe that healthcare should be a fundamental right. Others don't and just see it as another "service" that should be part of the free market (those who can afford it can get it, and those who can't--don't). The debates around "the math" are mostly distractions and avoiding the real debate of whether it should be a fundamental right or not.

[Masark]

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/danmu...MAformula1.png

If you're going to keep linking that image, you might try actually reading it. That is the formula for MEDICARE PAYMENTS, not anything else.

[fengosa]

My experience in watching Americans debate this issue is that there tends to be underlying philosophy differences at play. Some people believe that healthcare should be a fundamental right. Others don't and just see it as another "service" that should be part of the free market (those who can afford it can get it, and those who can't--don't). The debates around "the math" are mostly distractions and avoiding the real debate of whether it should be a fundamental right or not.

no, the math distinctly favors a single payer system.