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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TenDance View Post
    Try Karazhan in green and blue gear, with at best some parts of D3, and you will meet some sweet enragetimers. Bosses like the curator had been the classic example of a content blocker. You had to meet certain criteria to pass, or, in short: gear.
    There was one and only one enrage timer in Karazhan. Maiden of Virtue. And it was very long, like 10-15 minutes. People didn't even know it exists until couple t6-geared warrior and priest decided to duo KZ. Edit: Oh and Aran, when he enrages (which is like 15-20 minutes timer), he makes several copies of himself with tons of health.

    And that's what was great about KZ. It wasn't about enrage timers (which should be all removed from raids altogether unless it is purely patchwerk fight), wasn't about 20-page booklets per boss you must read. It was about layout, atmosphere and having fun with friends.

    That's why that raid became so memorable.

    Alas, with current developers, we will never ever see anything like Karazhan again. Best they can do is to make million of difficulties and millions of subtiers, which makes raiding even less appealing, whlie trying to keep catering to people, who shouldn't ever touch RPGs in first place.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-10-15 at 05:17 AM.

  2. #22
    Karazhan was awesome...

  3. #23
    To this day, Kara is my number one most favorite instance, raid or otherwise, in the entire game. It is such a cool instance, the bosses are cool, the whole place is just amazing.

    I never did get to see Ulduar (may have to run that at some point) so I can't compare the two. But Kara, man, I practically live there lol.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    Karazhan is unique because 1. the raid was about the story, not going around killing mobs for better gear. It was highly scripted and there were no wings, the progression was linear, emphasizing on the dark plot of the mage tower and it's previous owner. 2. Karazhan is by far the largest raid ever, consisting of cellars, secret room, haunted laboratories, ominous opera theaters and so on. Again, it is not large because there are a lot of gear drop p ing mobs to kill but because of the story. 3. Karazhan was super hard, giving something players to chew.on for a long while.

    Your thoughts?
    I couldn't possibly disagree more with you than I already do.

    I almost want to say you're a troll since your "largest raid" comment makes absolutely no sense, among other comments..

  5. #25
    Epic! Felarion's Avatar
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    Honestely i never like Karazhan THAT much, especially music was getting on my nerves buck then. But yeah it was cool raid with some nice ideas back in the days like chess,netherspite mahlezzar (dat melle and shadow nova or unlucky dropped infernals )
    Last edited by Felarion; 2013-10-15 at 08:55 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    Karazhan is unique because 1. the raid was about the story, not going around killing mobs for better gear.
    Not to be a jerk but, say what?

    What WAS the story of Karazhan? Everything went all weird because a random demon was there? Makes even less sense than Zul'Aman...

    But Karazhan WAS a great looking raid, with lots of atmosphere and some kooky unique areas/fights/bosses.

    It also was only semi-linear.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    Karazhan is unique because 1. the raid was about the story, not going around killing mobs for better gear. It was highly scripted and there were no wings, the progression was linear, emphasizing on the dark plot of the mage tower and it's previous owner. 2. Karazhan is by far the largest raid ever, consisting of cellars, secret room, haunted laboratories, ominous opera theaters and so on. Again, it is not large because there are a lot of gear drop p ing mobs to kill but because of the story. 3. Karazhan was super hard, giving something players to chew.on for a long while.

    Your thoughts?
    I think that a big role in Kara popularity is played by nostalgia, at that time many peoples were forced to raid it over and over cuz it was the only 10man raid around and most of the time those who want to move into the next raid should hop in another guild once geared; today we don't have 10man only raid and mandatory entry level, but if we talk about atmosphere icc, ulduar, ToT, SoO are on par with kara.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral HavelTheRock's Avatar
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    They could literally give me Karazhan again and I'd me happy.

  9. #29
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    But the glaring question remains, how could Prince have Gorehowl in Kara? :X

  10. #30
    Field Marshal Kookies's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed Karazhan as a raid, it felt well designed, looked pretty (lots of variety in boss fights and mob types) and did not really have any tuning issues. The only thing I did not like about it was the friggin' 1 hand dps sword from netherspite would never drop for us. I power levelled blacksmithing (was pricey back then) for the gaudy 1 hand mace (rogue mace spec in pve when it was stuns not arp :S), then naturally that damn sword dropped back to back in 2 resets.

    Even when our guild had progressed into t5/t6 I would always snap up the chance for a late night karazhan run with friends or alts. Ventrillo/beer/comical fairytale bosses were a great combination, so yeah I'd love another karazhan raid in the future.
    "Plz inv for steelsnap"

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Kara was hard because people were much worse then.
    You can tell because Flame Wreath was a serious mechanic.
    Quoted for emphasis.

    That being said, Kara was a nice raid and I enjoyed running it for its aethetics. But seriously, it didn't have a story. Maybe it had lore, but a lot of stuff there didn't make a lot of sense. The final boss for instance.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans FuxieDK's Avatar
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    While Karazhan was awsome, it was neither hard nor linear..

    Beast boss: Optional - One of three active each week, very few even knew they existed..
    Attumen: Optional
    Moroes: Mandatory - Unlockes Opera
    Maiden: Optional
    Opera: Mandatory - Road block
    Nightbane: Optional
    Curator: Optional (can be passed by stealth/prowl/invis)
    Illhoof: Optional
    Shade of Aran: Optional
    Nethersprite: Optional
    Chess: Mandatory - Road block
    Prince: Endboss..

    8/12 are optional.. I don't call that linear..
    Last edited by FuxieDK; 2013-10-15 at 09:08 AM.

  13. #33
    I didn't like Karazhan that much. It was an alright raid, but I fail to see what you mean by story. Other than the Kirin Tor detecting a demonic presence and Nightbane being a blue dragon, there was not too much story. The raid certainly had a unique atmosphere. But I did not like how big it was, and there was far too much trash in it.

  14. #34
    Bloodsail Admiral Sageofthe10paths's Avatar
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    Kara was super easy and the 1st 10 man raid out in WoW, to make the climb to the real raids such as Gruuls, Mag's lair, and everything else. It had some story but not as deep as Tempest Keep or Serpent Shrine Cavern. Those two raids were HARD at level btw. Kara dropped epics constantly from trash and the bosses were piss easy. I loved Kara but I don't want such a giant raid that has little to do with an xpac. Mogu Shan vaults was like this and I hated it. Except it was short.

  15. #35
    Karazhan was ok the first couple times. After that it got old and boring, imo. Now if we had a raid like Karazhan that was the other half (the upside down version) then yes. Just watching the videos I'd love to see it as an actual raid some day with the same design.

  16. #36
    There is not a single thing in the OP that is consistent with the truth.

    Karazhan was fun, but it was just another raid.

  17. #37
    I can't really agree with the OP either. Karazhan as a place has it's place in the lore, but it did not take anything forward in my opinion. It was purely something along with gearing players up, introducing players to raiding etc. It wasn't challenging (at all, it was clearable with a raid full of players with classic/tbc uncommon & rare gear). Too much thrash, not very intresting bosses, a lot space wasted (cellars for example, barely ever went there because it mostly was waste of time). It was absolutely huge and would've propably been better with a couple of bosses more.

    Worst part of karazhan in my opinion was definately the chess event. It was boring but required. The only good point of having that there was the possibility to have a small break because it was easily cleared by just a few guys.

    Shortly: No, I don't want another raid like karazhan. Would I accept another large raid? Propably, assuming that the movement from place to another works out smooth and the place isn't filled with thrash. MGV, HoF, ToT and SoO have all been quite large raids, so I expect this trend to go on. Moving from boss to another has been decent, a bit too much thrash for my taste but not everyone can be satisfied, right?
    Main: Rogue - Alt: Balance Druid

  18. #38
    I disagree with a lot of what the OP said about kara.

    Yes it was large and until Ulduar and TOT it was certainly the largest imo in terms of space. The lore was flimsy, they could have done SO much more in terms of lore. The events were great though and bosses for their time well thought out. The opera boss being a fun one.

    I think Karas theme is still unique though. It was really a tower that had a lot mystery around it before it opened and in a zone that was dark and brooding. I hope one day we see a reverse Kara where we start at the ground level and work our way down in a mirror image of the tower.

  19. #39
    Scarab Lord
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    As others have said most of what OP has said is completely untrue, hell I am big into the lore and I hardly remember the reason we went to Karazhan apart from BIG DEMON UP TOP or why things like Netherspite were there, or why we got an urn to summon Nightbane.

    Kara was a fun raid and a great expansion starter, but it wasn't hard or linear or heavily scripted or lore heavy (a chess match ffs).

  20. #40
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    Karazhan is unique because 1. the raid was about the story, not going around killing mobs for better gear. It was highly scripted and there were no wings, the progression was linear, emphasizing on the dark plot of the mage tower and it's previous owner. 2. Karazhan is by far the largest raid ever, consisting of cellars, secret room, haunted laboratories, ominous opera theaters and so on. Again, it is not large because there are a lot of gear drop p ing mobs to kill but because of the story. 3. Karazhan was super hard, giving something players to chew.on for a long while.

    Your thoughts?
    Were we raiding different Karazhans in BC? Because all of that stuff you said wasn't in the Karazhan I did. Certainly not the difficulty. I healed Illhoof with two greens.

    Let's see, more stuff to debunk. Oh, yes. The "linear path" bit. Required bosses in Karahzhan to get to Prince were as follows.

    - Moroes (to unlock the Opera door)
    - Opera (to unlock the door leading to the rear)
    - Curator (because you weren't going to sneak past him)
    - Chess (to unlock the door leading to Prince)

    Which meant that EVERY OTHER boss in the raid was 100% optional. Netherspite, Nightbane, Illhoof, Shade of Aran, Maiden of Virtue, Attumen the Huntsman, and the random beast boss (which I bet you didn't even know existed in the first place) in the cellar were all not required to get to Prince.

    Before you try to say Shade of Aran was required, no. Only Curator was required to unlock Chess. Shade of Aran was only required to unlock the teleport in the front to his room.

    Furthermore, there was no real story to why Prince Malchezaar was even IN Karazhan in the first place. Really, the only sotry you could say existed in Karazhan was the little bit of storyline involving Medivh, which was really only limited to the quest chain to unlock the urn required to summon Nightbane.

    Last, Karazhan was only used as a tool for gearing, be it for actual drops or in later tiers for very easy Badge farming (especially in preparation for the Sunwell vendor) or easy access to sharded epics once people no longer needed gear.

    As for largest raid ever, vanilla raids in terms of actual size were much larger, and MoP raids are much larger in terms of boss count. Siege has a total of 14 bosses to Karazhan's 12.

    Should I add that it was ONLY 10-man? In an expansion where raiding was 25-man for everything that actually mattered in terms of BC's storyline? You know, Tempest Keep, Serpentshrine, Black Temple...the things that were part of the real story of Outland?

    My thoughts? Your nostalgia glasses are thick with smut. You should clean them.

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