Do you Want another Karazhan style Raid?

[khalltusk]

Were we raiding different Karazhans in BC? Because all of that stuff you said wasn't in the Karazhan I did. Certainly not the difficulty. I healed Illhoof with two greens.

Let's see, more stuff to debunk. Oh, yes. The "linear path" bit. Required bosses in Karahzhan to get to Prince were as follows.

- Moroes (to unlock the Opera door)
- Opera (to unlock the door leading to the rear)
- Curator (because you weren't going to sneak past him)
- Chess (to unlock the door leading to Prince)

Which meant that EVERY OTHER boss in the raid was 100% optional. Netherspite, Nightbane, Illhoof, Shade of Aran, Maiden of Virtue, Attumen the Huntsman, and the random beast boss (which I bet you didn't even know existed in the first place) in the cellar were all not required to get to Prince.

Before you try to say Shade of Aran was required, no. Only Curator was required to unlock Chess. Shade of Aran was only required to unlock the teleport in the front to his room.

Furthermore, there was no real story to why Prince Malchezaar was even IN Karazhan in the first place. Really, the only sotry you could say existed in Karazhan was the little bit of storyline involving Medivh, which was really only limited to the quest chain to unlock the urn required to summon Nightbane.

Last, Karazhan was only used as a tool for gearing, be it for actual drops or in later tiers for very easy Badge farming (especially in preparation for the Sunwell vendor) or easy access to sharded epics once people no longer needed gear.

As for largest raid ever, vanilla raids in terms of actual size were much larger, and MoP raids are much larger in terms of boss count. Siege has a total of 14 bosses to Karazhan's 12.

Should I add that it was ONLY 10-man? In an expansion where raiding was 25-man for everything that actually mattered in terms of BC's storyline? You know, Tempest Keep, Serpentshrine, Black Temple...the things that were part of the real story of Outland?

My thoughts? Your nostalgia glasses are thick with smut. You should clean them.

MC BWL were small raids same with ZG AQ20 was smaller than kara as well. AQ40 I think could give it a run for its money and perhaps Nax but the other places in Vanilla were all smaller in terms of map size.

[Cryonic]

Just as long as they don't ruin it with another chess event :P

[Deleted]

I love Kara's feeling and setting, but I must agree that the story was foggy at best.
You go there to... do what ? If I recall correctly, there was some nobles from Darkshire that disappeared when they went there, but after we find them near Moroes, I don't know why we investigate more.
Some bosses were there only for the sake of putting another boss, like netherspite (seriously, why is there an adult Netherdragon in Medivh's tower, they didn't exist back when he inhabited it)
The story was so foggy for a long time people argued which boss was the last between Malchezaar and Nightbane !
And I've yet to understand how Malchezaar went to the top of the tower and what he was doing there !

[Fenixdown]

MC BWL were small raids same with ZG AQ20 was smaller than kara as well. AQ40 I think could give it a run for its money and perhaps Nax but the other places in Vanilla were all smaller in terms of map size.

Size of map perhaps, but the actual size of the raid was larger. Larger rooms, larger corridors, larger everything else. If we're going off of just a map, hell, Naxx would definitely be smaller than any of those, Karazhan included. It's really only twice the size of ToTC in terms of map size, at best.

Also, considering many portions of the map were useless in terms of the raid's progression path (like the upper tower above Attumen, which wasn't even done until the pre-Wrath event when Prince Tenris was added, and most people skipped the cellar because the gear off of the random beast bosses was also random), Karazhan shrinks quite a bit. Whereas MC and BWL had no optional areas or bosses. AQ40 did have three optional bosses, but was also one of the very few raids that allowed players to use mounts, primarily due to it's sheer size. To put it this way, run back from a wipe on Nefarion in BWL and run back from a wipe on any "end wing" boss in Karazhan and tell me which is shortest. Since Karazhan had the back entrance and teleport to Shade's room, runs weren't very long. MC and BWL were quite the opposite.

If we only judge by map size and not actual perceived size of the instance for the players, sure. Kara was huge. If we're judging by the latter, Kara's about the size of ICC.

[khalltusk]

Size of map perhaps, but the actual size of the raid was larger. Larger rooms, larger corridors, larger everything else. If we're going off of just a map, hell, Naxx would definitely be smaller than any of those, Karazhan included. It's really only twice the size of ToTC in terms of map size, at best.

Also, considering many portions of the map were useless in terms of the raid's progression path (like the upper tower above Attumen, which wasn't even done until the pre-Wrath event when Prince Tenris was added, and most people skipped the cellar because the gear off of the random beast bosses was also random), Karazhan shrinks quite a bit. Whereas MC and BWL had no optional areas or bosses. AQ40 did have three optional bosses, but was also one of the very few raids that allowed players to use mounts, primarily due to it's sheer size. To put it this way, run back from a wipe on Nefarion in BWL and run back from a wipe on any "end wing" boss in Karazhan and tell me which is shortest. Since Karazhan had the back entrance and teleport to Shade's room, runs weren't very long. MC and BWL were quite the opposite.

If we only judge by map size and not actual perceived size of the instance for the players, sure. Kara was huge. If we're judging by the latter, Kara's about the size of ICC.

I think you are shifting the goal posts a bit too much but I shall respond anyway. Kara has more bosses than MC and BWL. The corpse run in BWL and MC was only brutal because of the graveyard location. Once inside BWL the run to the boss position was short. MC was a bit longer when in the instance. Kara had a gyard just outside but was a long run when inside the instance for certain bosses (hello shade!).

The room size in BWL was comparable to Kara and in many places smaller than karas. MC was just a big open cave and is infact very small if you ever go back inside and look at the map its tiny. AQ40 and NAX are the only Vanilla raids to compare to Kara in terms of size. The library for instance is quite wide and extremely tall it is not small by any means and dwarfs BWL room sizes.

Totc only twice as small as Nax? Unless you mean the outside world model? If so don't really count that it was not until MOP that they decided to make the raids on the outside look as big as they should be.

[crazyman2]

Story, no.
Atmosphere, nothing else even comes close.

And the comment on kara being a setpiece first with bosses designed for the set rather than bosses first with the set built around that kind of nailed it.

[Armourboy]

Kara had a lot of story if you knew it, but you had to read the books to know it, otherwise it was just Medivh's house. What made it great to me was that the fights were fun, not overly complicated yet, but early on if you messed up you at least did pay for it in some way or another. It was really that first place that while easy for more hardcore groups, was actually pretty difficult for more casual guilds. I can remember still trying to finish it with my guild while already filling in on SSC runs for other guilds.

What made it great was it was one of the few where it felt like you were walking into a world where that's what was going on even when you weren't there. People were dancing, partying, you had the theater, a massive chess set, and a host of demons and odd characters. It was what I would imagined a world of a mad mage would be like. Not everything made sense but that was ok because what makes sense in a world where the worlds most powerful mage is controlled by the spirit by the universes most evil guy?

I think what endears it to so many is that it looked good and it was the first area where everyone could at least give it a shot. Some didn't clear it til very late when everyone was pugging it, but almost everyone saw it. I do think it was deluded down a bit because for melee the Arena weapons were better and easier to get and in some cases the Arena armor was better for a few slots. However for those that love it I don't think it tarnished it in any way.

It was the father of what became the 10 mans in Wrath and I think endears it to many people, myself included.

[DemoBytom]

Kara was hard because people were much worse then.
You can tell because Flame Wreath was a serious mechanic.

"I will not move when flame wreath is cast or the raid blows up"

I don't know what OP wants...
Siege of Orgrimmar storyline is deeply tied into whole expansion's story. Many NPCs and bosses you meet there are NPCs you already know from the game.. Even Dark Shamans are actual old shaman trainers.. Storywise all MoP raids kick Karazhan's ass IMHO..
As for the size - I don't think Karazhan was the biggest one.. It was tall and contained countless stairs, but it was nearly all just a series of small rooms and corridors. Ulduar, ICC, ToT and now SoO all feel (at least for me) much bigger..

[Reserk]

Inb4 Kara rehashed 5-Man dungeon.

[DechCJC]

I love Karazhan, but not for the reasons in the OPs post.

Also, hard? Lol.

Obviously the entire look of the raid was what people probably liked about it the most, the whole kind of haunted mansion thing is awesome - But for me what I really love is just how much there is to explore despite having no bosses in those areas. Loads of rooms that were there largely just for the sake of making it seem more realistic, that's one thing that raids nowadays really lack - It's all one big path-way, I don't consider the choice of going to different wings a separate path.

[Reserk]

"I will not move when flame wreath is cast or the raid blows up"

I don't know what OP wants...
Siege of Orgrimmar storyline is deeply tied into whole expansion's story. Many NPCs and bosses you meet there are NPCs you already know from the game.. Even Dark Shamans are actual old shaman trainers.. Storywise all MoP raids kick Karazhan's ass IMHO..
As for the size - I don't think Karazhan was the biggest one.. It was tall and contained countless stairs, but it was nearly all just a series of small rooms and corridors. Ulduar, ICC, ToT and now SoO all feel (at least for me) much bigger..

Yeah, I think it was because of the atmosphere and general feel of the place is why a lot of people loved it. What is good and bad is all opinion. People like large raids, some people like raids the size of Dragon Soul. Some people like the Heroic Mode triggers in Ulduar in which I can say with near certainty some players may have hated them. Kara seemed like a cool raid to play through while it was current though, I must admit.

[FuxieDK]

Storywise all MoP raids kick Karazhan's ass IMHO..

LOL....

No, just no... The first 2 tiers of MoP raids are all in the Bottom-5 raids ever released...

[Reserk]

LOL....

No, just no... The first 2 tiers of MoP raids are all in the Bottom-5 raids ever released...

I'm fairly confident that TOT was generally a good raid when it was current? Or have I missed something. And I somewhat agree with the first tier. HOF was just horrible imo. I didn't like that raid personally. MSV wasn't that bad?. TOES, barely touched that place, no idea.

[XDurionX]

Snip

1.It wasn´t more about the story, but i´ll give you + 1 point for atmosphere. 2. Wasn´t larger than other raid, neither for expanse nor for bosscount. 3. Karazhan was the entry raid and thus very easy.

All in all i had a f***ton of fun there, but you´re points are invalid nonetheless.

[Aesahaettr]

LOL....

No, just no... The first 2 tiers of MoP raids are all in the Bottom-5 raids ever released...

I disagree.

Firstly, he specified "storywise", in that respect the MoP raids have been consistent.

As for everything else, HoF was abysmal, but MSV was a pleasant enough opening raid. Better than WOTLK Naxx, at least as good as BoT and BWL.

I had no qualms about TOES either.

Back to the Karazhan topic, it did have atmosphere, that I agree with. Can't really recall the surrounding story, but as pointed out Prince was there for no reason at all. I remember a lot of trash though, not sure if trash really adds much aside from a time sink.

- - - Updated - - -

Not many enrage timers/ dont stand at this spot- bosses.

Well, it was often better to group up.

But having to stand / not stand at certain points isn't a bad thing. If you can just stand anywhere it makes things a lot easier. Same for enrage timers, I don't think they're a bad thing.

[Dukenukem]

One thing that can be sayd about Karazhan is that the design in unique because of the place. Its tower so it is logically designed more vertically than horizontally, I would say its the tallest raid design in game (maybe BT, but BT is huge in size compared to kara).
This small thing alone is giving the place its unique feeling

[Deleted]

It was epic but let it die in piece. I don't want to ruin a good memory.

[Nobleshield]

I would like a Kara-style raid in difficulty and freedom to go where you want instead of having to follow the path from one room to the next. I feel what the game is missing the most at the start of a new expansion is a fairly tame entry-level raid designed for new raid teams and designed to better acquaint folks with raiding proper. The answer was never to add more difficulties, it was to balance raids correctly without catering to the hardcore crowd who will invariably clear it the first week (normal ofc) anyways since they are such a tiny minority that they shouldn't matter.

[smokii]

i always liked the haunted house style of kara, a bit like shadowfang keep - i actually completely managed to avoid SFK until about level 80, as it was out of the way of my alts and there was no dungeon finder. i eventually ran it for the 5 man dungeon achieve and couldn't believe what i had been missing, i then ran it quite a few more times on alts and again once it was revamped into a heroic during cata.

i want more haunted/possessed/creepy castles and mansions - i'd love to see the karazhan crypts become a reality, we need more ominous and dark/spooky things in wow.

i like the massive dungeons, like ulduar and throne of thunder, but i do also love the intricately designed small instances that use every inch of empty space to full advantage. not every boss has to be 100 feet tall to be a challenge, shade of aran will always be a favourite.

[BHD]

I disagree with OPs description of what kind of raid Karazhan was (Pretty sure Blizz has said that ToT is in fact their biggest raid ever in terms of raid-size) but I'd love another raid like it. It was anything but linear, having lots of extra rooms that didn't really serve any purpose to the actual fighting, but it made the tower seem more real. Instead of just having a hallway with a boss at the end there were several rooms at the sides with mobs you'd never go for unless you're farming rep, and then there was huge areas (stairs next to attumen) that was there just because. Loved how they used that space for the wotlk pre-event boss too.

You could go around exploring areas of the raid just because it was a fun place to be, and having so many optional orders in which you killed bosses was really neat.