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  1. #1

    Yet another LFR thread and...now Flex mode - Need to get this off my chest

    What happened to the playerbase that its devolved so much into such a cesspool of horrible people?

    Siege of Orgrimmar may be a new LFR and yes it MAY be players just learning, but how can you justify people blowing all their CDs and just going AFK after they topped meters expecting to get away with it. Skada is pretty good about this now as I see people blow up....then devolve into 26 - 30k making it easy to pick out the AFKers....but....let me tell a story

    I used to love doing raid finder. I'm a heroic progression raider. I had full heroic clears of T14 and T15 and I did LFR on my alts. It was fun for me, downing bosses, and with the exceptional difficult for LFR boss like Garalon, Amber Shaper, Durumu, or Lei Shen pre nerf things got done in a reasonable time. I seriously was able to level 10 alts to lvl 90 and be done before my weekend came. (I review games and work from home so I got alot of free time).

    Now im lucky if I can get 4 or 5 characters done. LFR wipes so badly, and people have such little patience that every wipe we lose a tank and a few healers and bam.....45 min wait time inbetween pulls. Sometimes people will ninja pull bosses and leave so people have a higher repair bill. I reported these players numerous times but It seems to fall on deaf ears and Its starting to sap the love I had for the game.

    LFR was never perfect, but it was....better than this. One night on a Nazgrim kill, we had 8 players just autoattacking Nazgrim and we were only able to vote kick 5 of them and it wouldnt let us vote kick anyone else....and the 5 people who joined in were Autoattackers as well. Why does this even happen?

    Now to the Flex mode....I just did one on my Warrior, using the Oqueue addon and well... all but 4 of us joined vent, 4 of the DPS, who Afked and auto attacked on nazgrim leaving only 2 of our DPS from our guild able to do the boss, we of course wiped to the Cleave mechanic and when they saw we wiped, they asked what happened, how that could have been prevented, and when we said "well if you simply hit buttons instead of Auto attack then the boss could be managed easily" and they got pissy, called us all bads, one even claimed he killed heroic garrosh on his alt, and we simply said "no, your achievements are account wide, you have not even downed him on normal" to which he ninja pulled and left the group calling us retarded carry babies.

    Every expansion I looked forward to leveling my toons and having enough gear to do so. I even did DS heroic on my alts last expansion and got off running into this one with a 405+ Ilvl, even had the Legendary daggers on my rogue....this time...I think im gonna have to make do with my 500+ Ilvl toons in the next xpac...but if the playerbase is continuing to devolve....it might be my last expansion or I simply stick to my main.

    Before people say "implement this or that" I actually had an idea for a reward system for LFR - To help players better get into doing mechanics correctly.

    However for this to work, some things have to be implemented and changed

    1. The Queueing system has to be able to be smarter - For example, if you are a DPS but you queue as a healer, unless you have a healing spec, you cannot get in and if you do, it will automatically swap you to the spec and lock you to that spec for the LFR - Same with Tanks. If you do bad at healing or tanking, you will be spotted easily as I have not seen a LFR yet not call out a dps in healer spec, or a healer doing subpar healing or being AFK and allowed to stay. Same with dps in tank stance trying to pretend to be a tank for a faster queue.

    2. If the changes above happen, the loot bag will 100% be guaranteed for tanks and healers from now on, no more call to arms, if you tank or you heal and you stick through the entire dungeon, every boss you kill for the 1st time will give you one of these bags. These bags will now have a chance to contain a random item for your spec from the LFR, be it a trinket, ring, token etc.

    Now before people say "that will only make the healer baddy queues even worse!" let me get to the part that makes DPS more inclined to do mechanics correctly. They get the same reward bag with a chance at loot, except they have to do a little effort as well, as Tanks and Healers going through LFR is effort enough. Trust me, 10 alts, Pally, Warrior, Monk, and Druid are all tanks (DK tank is my main so i play all 5) tanks and healers get the brunt of all blame in LFR but they do the best they can when they are actually tanks and healers.

    Now the DPS Reward system will incorporate a "Bonus Objective" like in Scenarios. Every boss will have a bonus objective for the DPS and I even came up with a list of suggestions for all 14 bosses.

    Immersius - Cause the boss to lose 20 corruption in a single Split phase
    Fallen Protectors - Do not stand in Rooks Spinning kick for more than 5 seconds
    Norushen - Do not let the black balls pulsing AoE go off more than 4 times (reset for every ball)
    Sha of Pride - Do not go above 75 Pride
    Galakras - Do not take more than X damage from the Flames of Galakras (the ball mechanic)
    Iron Juggernaut - Do not stand in the Spikes on the ground for more than 5 seconds (reset every cast)
    Dark Shaman - Do not take more than X damage from the Slimes, Ashen Wall, Falling Ash, and Tornadoes
    General Nazgrim - Do not attack the boss more than 5 times when he's in defensive Stance
    Malkorok - Do not get hit by Breath of Y'shaarj
    Spoils of Pandaria - Complete the sections with more than 30 seconds remaining on the clock
    Thok - Do not get stepped on more than 5 times in a single encounter
    Siegecrafter Blackfuse - Destroy 1 Weapon every time assembly line is active
    Klaxxi - Do not allow a player to be devoured by a Hungry Kunchong
    Garrosh Hellscream - Do not get hit by a Kor'kron Iron Star and Avoid every Annihilate and do not allow a cast of Touch of Y'shaarj to be cast

    This will encourage DPS to do mechanics correctly. Having that extra goal with the chance at extra items would cause them to wake up and not just AFK through it. I know it wouldn't fix every single problem, but it would help at the very least.

  2. #2
    First off, your views aren't new or unique so they don't really warrant a new thread. LFR whines are a dime a dozen. Flex, well, you get to choose who you group with so choose more carefully.

    I'd love performance rewards but they can't work.
    1) Immerseus, I do my job others don't. It's out of my hands
    2) Sha of pride, I'm a tank, my pride is in the other tanks hands.
    3) Spoils, same as point 1

    Solutions
    1) Don't do lfr
    2) Do flex but choose more carefully

    You're welcome.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    First off, your views aren't new or unique so they don't really warrant a new thread. LFR whines are a dime a dozen. Flex, well, you get to choose who you group with so choose more carefully.

    I'd love performance rewards but they can't work.
    1) Immerseus, I do my job others don't. It's out of my hands
    2) Sha of pride, I'm a tank, my pride is in the other tanks hands.
    3) Spoils, same as point 1

    Solutions
    1) Don't do lfr
    2) Do flex but choose more carefully

    You're welcome.
    I get the impression you haven't read the title or even did LFR

    1. Yes its the uncertainty that makes people want to kill adds and spread out. "Oh no...what if the others arnt doing their job....THERE IS ANOTHER ADD slow kill bam! woo boss is at 79 corruption, bag complete =D"

    2. Sha of Pride doesn't cast Wounded Pride and thus tank swapping is not even needed. Also in my post, Tanks are Guaranteed their bag

    3. Again...group uncertainty will push players to not AFK and get the job done.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonPrime View Post
    I get the impression you haven't read the title or even did LFR
    I've only done parts of wing 2 of lfr. I always get in on shamans. I stayed the duration once because I felt like punishing myself. I did read the title. You could get it off your chest in any of the other 1000 threads with the same lfr whines or "reward performance" ideas.

    I kind of missed the tanks always get the bag bit. Seems like a great way to get dps to queue as tanks :P

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Radio's Avatar
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    Your suggestions for DPS bags are rarely focused on individual DPS responsibility despite the reward being individual:

    Immersius - Also controlled by the healers and tanks, and also higher expectations than what you need to do on heroic, instead offer a reward for contributing to the deaths of up to X adds throughout the fight, and minimising time spent in pools
    Fallen Protectors - Fine, would add things like defiled ground and noxious poison
    Norushen - Not just the DPSers responsibility and shouldn't be just their responsibility, instead offer a reward for having a contribution to add deaths
    Sha of Pride - Not completely under their control, focus on incentives for avoiding bursting pride and entering their projections instead
    Galakras - Group responsibility, instead incentivise keeping out of flames on the ground and spending time on shamans/bonecrushers
    Iron Juggernaut - Fine, maybe consider adding mortar cannons too
    Dark Shaman - I would personally change it to "fails if you die after taking damage from X effects within the past 4 seconds" or something along those lines
    General Nazgrim - Good good, incentivise add dps too
    Malkorok - Gotta hope someone is marking, though still good
    Spoils of Pandaria - Group responsibility, focus on not standing for too long in Kunchongs pools and not having a multi stack set to blow finish on you
    Thok - Fine
    Siegecrafter Blackfuse - Group responsibility, and I'm assuming that they will keep the 1min CD on rejoining the belt, maybe look at ground effects instead?
    Klaxxi - Group responsibility, ground effects better again
    Garrosh Hellscream - First two are good, 3rd is group responsibility

  6. #6
    I don't think it would help much, though idea is nice. Problem lies deeper: look at what new player has to go through.

    It is godmode, balance trainwreck, leveling is far beyond broken, you don't need brains, you can't die. At lv90 when you get into lv90 heroics, those are soloable at required ilvl. Now I don't say 5-men hcs should be hard, WotLK had it nice on release, even though people say WotLK's heroics are too easy (when overgeared), MoPs are 10 times easier than that without any overgearing.

    And then people come to raids, where accent suddenly switches from godmode into some stupid arcade direction. What kind of people would you expect to see, if very game itself taught them they are unkillable and taught them to do all things half-afk mode with zero attention to details.

    Current developers did it over the course of 2 expansions (Cata and now MoP). Currently there are much less people who played preCata, most players are those who passed through 1-90 godmode with completely ruined balance and having no clue about gameplay and straight into arcade dancing. Devs should wake up: with their heavy accent on raiding scene, they ruined everything outside it, and now it has consequences in actual raids. As result, game is full of pseudo-elitists and bads.

    Fixing this problem would require to rebalance entire game and classes from scratch, and as current "balancing" team sucks - I doubt it will ever be fixed. I doubt that providing bonus objectives would help even a tiny bit.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-10-15 at 07:06 AM.

  7. #7
    well tbh nothing really special happened - it was easy to predict it will be like that - people have limited time to play wow - before flex most of extra time they had they were spending in lfr - now if they have extra game time in a week they do flex on alts - and since time is not made out of rubber along with normal/hc progress most good players simply dont have enough time to do lfr too- besides doing same raid on flex and lfr on alts would burn out people like hell so they just choose flex - and this leaves lfr to its truly destined audience meaning people who dont have time to comit to scheduled normal/hc progress. they still are able to complete lfr wings just it requires few stacks of determination.

    but dont u worry first tier in 6.0 will come and suddenly eveyrbody will be doin lfr again to get gear on mains too at leats for first few weeks ando n alts too since there wont be timless isle with catch up gear to jump straight to flex

  8. #8
    Dreadlord xytech's Avatar
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    I would absolutely love special objectives such as those, and can definitely see them work as people do LFR for gear. I will make a suggestion about it to Blizzard once I get home, hopefully they'll consider it if enough people suggest it. If you add this you could also add kick eligibility, those who fail on objectives are eligible to get kicked. Wouldn't complain to get higher chances of loot either, currently sitting at 9 SoO pieces (+2 useless drops) and over 100 loot rolls in there.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer chrisisvacant's Avatar
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    Don't do LFR.
    Find a space in the game where you can enjoy playing.
    Accept the consequences with such a choice.
    Get a therapist.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonPrime View Post
    What happened to the playerbase that its devolved so much into such a cesspool of horrible people?
    I stopped reading right here. I'll probably read the rest later as you probably have some decent points that won't need arguing about because there is a possibility they might not be conjecture, but to answer this question. Nothing happened to the playerbase. There has always been the vast majority of people in this game that are terrible at this game that abuse any sort of system that is given to them.

    These are the kinds of people who have 5 hour "can't kick this guy" buffers and/or constantly doing the stupidest/dickish things in the world possible over a video game.

    My advice? Fuck lfr, fuck pugging flex. Get a guild to devote time into, raid normal, raid flex with them. This option is of course preserving as much sanity as possible. If you can't do that? Sorry, but you're stuck with the bottom 95% in the cesspool known as lfr, a system made for these people, and the baddies that exist when pugging flex groups.
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
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  11. #11
    The Patient Sqeen's Avatar
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    I know how you feel but the dps rewards wont work out. Either you got exceptional good dps which can do it even when half the raid is afk and you give them extra loot for being afk or if you set the limits quite high there will always be some to f*ck the bonus loot for others at all costs.

    The only thing I came up with to get better LFR runs is to get an option to mark people (only autoattacking or pressing a single button once in a while) afk after lets say 30 seconds, like you can do in a BG. If he is marked afk during the encounter he won't get loot, even in follow up tries. This will prevent people from tabbing to windows since 30 seconds is a pretty short window to do other stuff or simply go afk

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonPrime View Post
    Siege of Orgrimmar may be a new LFR and yes it MAY be players just learning, but how can you justify people blowing all their CDs and just going AFK after they topped meters expecting to get away with it. Skada is pretty good about this now as I see people blow up....then devolve into 26 - 30k making it easy to pick out the AFKers....but....let me tell a story
    Recount actually does a better job at this. If you didn't pay attention to the meters at start, you can see on the meters that they bursted, then went afk. At Skada, you just see them as low dps and you wouldn't be able to see their full potential. That is if you have the damage done window open, not the dps. But I don't know of any reason not to have damage done instead of dps since it tells you much more about what you actually did.



    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonPrime View Post
    Immersius - Cause the boss to lose 20 corruption in a single Split phase
    Fallen Protectors - Do not stand in Rooks Spinning kick for more than 5 seconds
    Norushen - Do not let the black balls pulsing AoE go off more than 4 times (reset for every ball)
    Sha of Pride - Do not go above 75 Pride
    Galakras - Do not take more than X damage from the Flames of Galakras (the ball mechanic)
    Iron Juggernaut - Do not stand in the Spikes on the ground for more than 5 seconds (reset every cast)
    Dark Shaman - Do not take more than X damage from the Slimes, Ashen Wall, Falling Ash, and Tornadoes
    General Nazgrim - Do not attack the boss more than 5 times when he's in defensive Stance
    Malkorok - Do not get hit by Breath of Y'shaarj
    Spoils of Pandaria - Complete the sections with more than 30 seconds remaining on the clock
    Thok - Do not get stepped on more than 5 times in a single encounter
    Siegecrafter Blackfuse - Destroy 1 Weapon every time assembly line is active
    Klaxxi - Do not allow a player to be devoured by a Hungry Kunchong
    Garrosh Hellscream - Do not get hit by a Kor'kron Iron Star and Avoid every Annihilate and do not allow a cast of Touch of Y'shaarj to be cast

    This will encourage DPS to do mechanics correctly. Having that extra goal with the chance at extra items would cause them to wake up and not just AFK through it. I know it wouldn't fix every single problem, but it would help at the very least.

    Decent ideas, but I don't think it would really work. Some of them are too individual and if players accidentally messed up during those, they would get kicked by a sea of rage and name calling even though they tried or if someone else actually caused the mistake.

    Making it completely individual as well could work, but that could lead to players ignoring the main objective (killing the actual boss).

    I don't think there's a smart way of going through with this. Making Proving Grounds gold or wave 10 endless a requirement is much more reasonable if you ask me. It requires you to prioritize mobs, change targets, interrupt and burst down in the right phase. Perfect gating for LFR.

  13. #13
    I love Flex, I had been out of raiding since 5.0, Flex got me into a good group of guys and now I'm in a weekly normal raid, 7 of 14. Try looking for people on your realm before you use OQ, you might find some new friends that way.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    DPS rewards needs to be individual.

    I would rather see something tied to the enrage timer : the issue is not with the DPS not doing mechanics : in LFR you can ignore nearly all of them if the dps is not bad.

    So imagine all 17 DPS needs to be doing 80k to exactly meet the enrage. If you do those 80k dps, you get the same chance at getting your loot as now.

    If you do twice less (40k), you have 0% of getting loot. At 60k, you only have 50% of the current chance of getting loot.

    I'm not sure the chance at getting loot should be upped if you do more than the 80k necessary dps, but it's a possibility. you could go for example for a +50% chance of getting loot if you do 120k (+50% of 80k).

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Can't disagree about the failings of LFR & the leechers of the system.

    I like the idea of rewards to re-inforce positive behaviour, particularly that you tied these rewards to fight mechanics rather than dps requirements. I'd agree with some others though that they probably need to all be individual checks rather than ones that rely on the group, at least to begin with. If the system worked well then perhaps future dungeons/expansions could include group checks (because if everyone is actually playing properly they should always be achievable).

    I'm slightly more surprised that there isn't already something from Blizzard's side doing something about these afk'rs though. Maybe an "if you haven't used an ability in 10s your chance of earning loot drops by 1% every 2s, when your chance hits 0% you are automatically removed from the raid and given the deserter debuff". (Obviously this would need something behind it to catch & not boot genuine DCs).

    In my opinion LFR is currently too much carrot & not enough stick.

  16. #16
    Deleted
    The issue with other requirement than a dps check is that :
    1/ it needs to be designed for each fight
    2/ it might be complex to explain you what the game expect you to do to get that bonus
    3/ it might be tricked by clever afkers
    4/ what will happen to you if you're the one making the group miss the bonus ?

    if you know that when afking, or not doing enough dps, you won't get loot, i'm nearly sure we'll see the problem solve itself.
    afker's should be removed from the run and given the deserter debuff only if hitting enrage. The rule could be "In case of enrage, the game remove automatically the 2-3 worst dps.". I just can't bear anymore having to negociate the exclusion of guy's that are afk. An automatic removal on enrage would be a must.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CaML View Post
    DPS rewards needs to be individual.

    I would rather see something tied to the enrage timer : the issue is not with the DPS not doing mechanics : in LFR you can ignore nearly all of them if the dps is not bad.

    So imagine all 17 DPS needs to be doing 80k to exactly meet the enrage. If you do those 80k dps, you get the same chance at getting your loot as now.

    If you do twice less (40k), you have 0% of getting loot. At 60k, you only have 50% of the current chance of getting loot.

    I'm not sure the chance at getting loot should be upped if you do more than the 80k necessary dps, but it's a possibility. you could go for example for a +50% chance of getting loot if you do 120k (+50% of 80k).
    Sigh, new thread, same stupid ideas.

    An example (made up figures)
    Guy in entry level gear with a max potential dps of 90k pulls the 70k required. Hes doing decently well.
    I go in there completely overgeared with a max potential dps of 300k and do 100k.
    I get rewarded and he doesn't.

    Fair? No.

  18. #18
    My preference would be a "Karma" system of sorts, where you can give people + or - Karma (with some limits to prevent abuse). I'll probably post this idea sometime later, but the base is that you can only see your own Karma, but more Karma gives you faster queues, more chance to be Leader, etc. Low Karma means you're easily kicked without penalty and will be considered last for queues.

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Being a heroic raider myself I like and hate lFR.

    I like LFR when I only have to run it once but then I hate it when I leave with nothing after doing so much. the reward from LFR is so weak that it does not push me to want to do more. I admit AFK in LFR when I run it on my 2-3 char because I really don't want to be their.

    I started doing LFR with some friends and it really is a lot more relaxed.

  20. #20
    I prefer to do things with my guild be it pve or pvp, I actually haven't stepped in LFR on my main this tier, only reasons I would force myself to do it was for the legendary quest items. The whole LFR experience is just awful and is a far cry from 'raiding' imo. For me raiding is about teamwork, challenge and having fun if I couldn't do that then wow is no longer the game for me
    “I’m like King Midas in reverse. Everything I touch turns to shit.”

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