View Poll Results: Thoughts?

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  • Prefer my characters getting weaker

    336 35.41%
  • Doesn't matter either way

    326 34.35%
  • Prefer my characters getting stronger

    287 30.24%
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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Marfrilau View Post
    I have not stated that you will get weaker as you level. I have said that after the squish you will become relatively weaker against a mob 10 lvls under you than you were before. You will ofc still be more powerful than said mob.
    And who cares if you are a bit weaker to a mob ten levels below you?? My head hurts trying to understand the amount of testosterone needed by you people to want to kill pointless mob faster. :P

  2. #302
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Still not clear on how post-squish the level 80 mob would be comparatively stronger than it was before hand when its having its stats reduced as well.
    It's the in the graph Blizzard gave us.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Still not clear on how post-squish the level 80 mob would be comparatively stronger than it was before hand when its having its stats reduced as well.
    It's only being reduced to the extent that a level 80 that took 6 hits to kill it before will take 6 hits to kill it after. Meanwhile a level 90 will be brought down much more than that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrayFox View Post
    And who cares if you are a bit weaker to a mob ten levels below you?? My head hurts trying to understand the amount of testosterone needed by you people to want to kill pointless mob faster. :P
    A lot of people who solo old raids wouldn't call it pointless.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Squish players by 30%, squish all mobs stats by 30%

    Isn't that across the board, but squish instead of using mega damage? (The mega damage solution seemed silly to me. "I didn't do 30K, I did 30 MEGA DAMAGE!" "How much mega damage did you do last fight? Man, my best MEGA DAMAGE was...." Just seems silly)
    With a squish there will be NO change in relative power between a lvl 90 player and a lvl 90 mob. There will however be a change between a lvl 90 player and a lvl 80 mob. Relatively speaking the lvl 80 mob will become stronger than is was before compared to the lvl 90 player.

  5. #305
    seriously....you guys are blowing this ENTIRELY out of proportion....everything in the game is going to be nerfed essentially. You can still kill things the same.....I don't understand why people are confused over this very very very simple concept. I remember logging in towards the end of bc and seeing my spellpower cut in half with an item squish...guess what? you didnt notice shit because everything else was nerfed effectively as well.....

    this isnt the first time its been done quit crying about it
    Last edited by pallyopness; 2013-10-15 at 10:06 PM.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Pearl View Post
    It's the in the graph Blizzard gave us.
    Blizzard released a graph?! When was this? I haven't seen more than they've confirmed they're working on the details, not released how it WILL work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marfrilau View Post
    With a squish there will be NO change in relative power between a lvl 90 player and a lvl 90 mob. There will however be a change between a lvl 90 player and a lvl 80 mob. Relatively speaking the lvl 80 mob will become stronger than is was before compared to the lvl 90 player.
    That would suggest that a level 80 player would be more powerful than the 90, which goes back to getting weaker as we level. Still not sure how that's going to happen. I would imagine if it takes the same hits for an 80 to kill and 80 mob, a 90 player is still going to take less to kill the same mob.

    Where's this graph, dag blast it.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by StrayFox View Post
    And who cares if you are a bit weaker to a mob ten levels below you?? My head hurts trying to understand the amount of testosterone needed by you people to want to kill pointless mob faster. :P
    There's no way that ppl will be able to solo lk hc 25 after the squish in the next expansion. That is unless they give ppl a buff when they enter an old raid to make up for the relative power lost due to the squish. That could be one of their solutions when they mention that the squish wont affect soloing. Then again I don't really trust blizzard to get it right.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Squish players by 30%, squish all mobs stats by 30%

    Isn't that across the board, but squish instead of using mega damage? (The mega damage solution seemed silly to me. "I didn't do 30K, I did 30 MEGA DAMAGE!" "How much mega damage did you do last fight? Man, my best MEGA DAMAGE was...." Just seems silly)
    That isn't what's happening, though.

    The idea is that item levels don't need to increase (as much, if at all) between raid tiers of previous expansions. So, for example, you'd go from 200->220 when switching from wrath to cata instead of 200->272. I'd go from being multiple hundreds of ilvl above a lvl 80 mob to being probably 50-100 or so above it, and from that it's going to be massively more powerful compared to me than it was before. Of course, for a normal quest mob that'd just mean it might not die to a single melee swing, but the point still remains that the power jump from lvl 80 to lvl 90 (or anything after lvl 60, really) gets smaller.

    And on a final note, future expansions after the squish would still have the huge ilvl jumps between tiers because Blizz likes that design: it's fun to get noticeably more powerful while raiding. So don't expect this to fix anything like 2 items capping your hit, crit capping, etc. Those'll all happen just the same.
    Last edited by Braindwen; 2013-10-15 at 10:14 PM.

  9. #309
    Actually is exactly the other way.

    The people raging about the squish are the one understanding the consequences of changing a geometrical progresion in a linear one .

    The ones for the squish have no idea what does this mean .

    I can bet you have no ideea what am I talking about . I can bet "geometric progression" and "linear progresion" are just strange
    Quote Originally Posted by StrayFox View Post
    My eyes are bleeding trying to read this.
    I can bet it killed your neuron too. Really sorry for this. We are not all native english speakers.
    Last edited by vandam; 2013-10-15 at 10:11 PM.

  10. #310
    High Overlord Ryuuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Pre squish: It takes you 25 seconds to kill Mob A
    Post squish: It takes you 25 seconds to kill Mob A

    How does the squish make you weaker other than you somehow perceiving "big numbers make strong!"

    The squish changes nothing. NOOOOOOOOTHIIIIIIIING!!!! Other than the perception that "big numbers make strong."
    What people don't understand is that there are two ways to squish ilvls. One would be linearly, another would be exponentially. (yes you can also apply custom or other nonsensical functions)

    However, most people here are (implicitly, perhaps) thinking that Blizzard will scale linearly. If that is the case, then I can prove to you with maths that NOTHING indeed will change relatively.

    However, what the majority here does not understand is that blizzard can not scale linearly at all. Well, technically they could, but it would be absolutely ridiculous. (f.e. having decimal numbers, which has a decimal breaking point, show up on gear).

    The other way, which luckily can avoid things like decimal figures, however unfortunately WILL CHANGE something.

    While I can tell you to learn maths so you can see that this is FACT and not opinion, I will show you examples.

    Example:

    Lets say we are going to scale an ilvl 13, an ilvl 66 and an ilvl 429 item. These ones in particular:
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=52646
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=15289
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=82266

    We are going the scale the 'of the monkey' variation for the purpose of this example. Lets also only look at the agility values (as the stamina values will scale similarly), as I am only trying to make a point, not show you the way blizzard might actually squish things.

    Overview:
    ilvl, Agility
    13, 2
    65, 19
    429, 830

    Now, firstly you have to understand that agility scales exponentially as ilvl increases. As you can see, 2 agility is about 1/6 of 13, 19 about 1/3 of 65 and 830 is about double of 429. The scaling increases.

    Now, lets see why linearly scaling does not work. Linearly means within this context that we are going to scale all numbers by the same factor.

    As you can see, if we scale with anything smaller than 0.5, the 2 agility will end up being smaller than 1. And since there exist items which have 1 of a certain stat, any downscaling at all will make those items have stats smaller than 1. While for example Blizzard can choose to give low level gear 0.02 stamina and 0.02 agility, I can assure you that most of you would not like that very much.

    This is why linearly scaling does not really work, even though it it the only method of scaling that will keep all things the same relatively.

    So, they will have to scale exponentially.

    Now, lets for example say that we cant really scale 2 agility any lower, because the number in itself already is pretty low. We could scale 19 agility to perhaps 12, which should allow some form of stat upgrades between lvl 10 and lvl 60. 830 agility however can be scaled down by a much larger degree. Lets say we scale that down to about 80 agility.

    However, this means that relatively, the gap between those ilvls will be much smaller. This in turn means that a higher lvl character will feel weaker against a lower lvl character post-squish and vice versa.

    This can have effects on content where a higher lvl character attempts to do lower lvl content, for example soloing old raids for gear and mounts.

    As you can see, this nerfs our characters in all ocassions where we would for example solo old raids and many people do not want that (myself not included).


    If all of this does not many sense at all, I highly recommend you to not engage in public discussions about this topic anymore. It will only confuse others and many of you have claimed to speak the truth where in fact you're faulty.

    N.B Blizzard may choose (and very likely will) choose to compensate in some other way, which we currently do not know.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Squish players by 30%, squish all mobs stats by 30%

    Isn't that across the board, but squish instead of using mega damage? (The mega damage solution seemed silly to me. "I didn't do 30K, I did 30 MEGA DAMAGE!" "How much mega damage did you do last fight? Man, my best MEGA DAMAGE was...." Just seems silly)
    You're arguing semantics. Dividing everything by 1,000 is effectively the mega damage solution, because there's not a tangible difference between dividing 30,000 down to 30 and just writing 30,000 as 30k.

    A squish is radically different. I remember Ghostcrawler talking about this ages ago, and basically, the way this would work is 1-60 would be exactly the same. If Ragnaros has 10k hp now, he will have 10k hp post squish. Your level 90 though will go from, say, for example, 500k hp, down to 20k. As you level, you will not get weaker, item levels will just scale very very slowly from BC-MoP, to the point that Karazhan gear will be the same or nearly the same as quest greens from Netherstorm. Item levels will be squished post 60.

    If I recall, Ghostcrawler said the solution they will use if they go through with this, to make it so that the level 90 can still solo old bosses easily, they will implement a zone wide buff that scales with level in every raid/dungeon instance from a previous expansion. So, when zoning into MC, your level 90 will shoot back up to 500k hp, easily being able to solo Rag.

    I hope my explanation helps people to understand the difference between squish and mega damage. Me, personally, I don't give much of a shit. Given the choice, I'd prefer the squish not happen, but it's not a large concern for me.
    Last edited by Laurcus; 2013-10-15 at 10:13 PM.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Blizzard released a graph?! When was this? I haven't seen more than they've confirmed they're working on the details, not released how it WILL work.



    That would suggest that a level 80 player would be more powerful than the 90, which goes back to getting weaker as we level. Still not sure how that's going to happen. I would imagine if it takes the same hits for an 80 to kill and 80 mob, a 90 player is still going to take less to kill the same mob.

    Where's this graph, dag blast it.
    Power would increase linearly instead of exponentially like it does now.

  13. #313
    I'm up for a squish once Blizzard makes it clear they can make an exponential curve linear without making characters weaker relative to older content.
    Anyone who tells me the usual "Ragnaros goes down to 100k health" yada yada hasn't understood how it'll work.
    Oh, so both 60 raids and max level players got numbers reduced by 90%? So then will the unsquished 60s be able to solo raids?

    And that's why I'm skeptical.
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  14. #314
    It's always the same uninformed morons derailing threads about the item squish with the same "i wont be able to solo old crap" and "i dont want to be weaker". I'm actually looking forward to it, most of the casual lfr crowd don't even know how to do decent damage anyway atm.

  15. #315
    Edit: That's what I get for posting my reply half an hour after reading the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuuki View Post
    ...Well, now comes the tricky part. We have to subtract 7^2 from 2^10. Well, like it or not, at some point the processor in your computer will have to do the operation (20 000 000 000 - 700), at which point you will get some form of overflow error and your game will crash or other terrible things will happen.

    Now, strictly speaking I could come up with clever algorithms that would make MEGADAMAGE work, but at that point you are replacing simple addition and subtraction operations with very complex methods.
    Good explanation.

    Lets see if I can make the item squish more understandable. I'm going to focus on the player damage/NPC health side of things.

    A lot of people are saying that an easy way to fix all of this is to reduce everything by the same factor. Which is easy, and would fix things. But any meaningful number would cause you to run into problems at low levels. Lets say you cut everything by a factor of 10, (which would only be a short term fix, since blizzard would run into the same issues come next expansion) then you're looking at people doing .2 damage at level one, and that's kinda dumb. So you can't have the same reduction across the board, because it'd fuck shit up at low levels. The larger the reduction, the bigger (smaller) the issue at low levels. Any realistic adjustment will want to leave 'low levels' untouched, and then get progressively larger towards the end of the spectrum. This is what worries people that solo old level content, because it would make that the reduction in damage at max level larger than the reduction of health at say 10 levels below that. That's not an unsolvable issue though. One way is to have the reduction be uniform from max level and down to (for instance) the highest level where people solo stuff. (If you can solo something at level 85, then you shouldn't have any issues soloing something at level 70, even if it's harder post squish.) Or you can add some kind of modifier (buff/debuff/somethingsomething) to instances at lower levels to correct for the difference. The last one seems a little inelegant to me, and the first one is going to have implications for people at level max-X trying solo something at level max-Y, but I'm sure someone can come it with something better than what I did over dinner.
    Last edited by Mac223; 2013-10-15 at 10:18 PM.

  16. #316
    High Overlord Ryuuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    You're arguing semantics. Dividing everything by 1,000 is effectively the mega damage solution, because there's not a tangible difference between dividing 30,000 down to 30 and just writing 30,000 as 30k.
    Its not really discussing semantics, because dividing everything by 1000 means llow lvl gear will have silly decimal numbers (yeey, this bow has 0.018 agility and 0.028 stamina, which will increase my health by 0.28 HP)

    The MegaDamage solution in essence will keep all numbers the same as they are now, however, they will now appear in a shortened format.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Marfrilau View Post
    There's no way that ppl will be able to solo lk hc 25 after the squish in the next expansion. That is unless they give ppl a buff when they enter an old raid to make up for the relative power lost due to the squish. That could be one of their solutions when they mention that the squish wont affect soloing. Then again I don't really trust blizzard to get it right.
    I don't think you understand how the squish is supposed to work. You seem to think it is impossible that everything will end up relative, but frankly I don't see why not.

    If Heroic Lich King has 103M HP & takes you like 2minutes too kill, after the squish he might have 6k HP & still take 2minutes to kill. The idea is that everything should remain relative, that's the whole point of the squish. Whether Blizzard can pull it off or not, whether they don't have a good solution for old dungeons & they will just implement some kind of buff or other solution inside old raids, that's yet to be seen. But the whole idea of the squish is that everything remains relative to what it is now, just with reduced HP/Damage.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Blizzard released a graph?! When was this? I haven't seen more than they've confirmed they're working on the details, not released how it WILL work.
    You're right. They released a graph that was a theoretical example of how it would work way back in the Dev. cooler about squish before during Cata. It's wasn't "this is exactly what's going to happen," however it WAS how the squish worked in their internal tests at the time. Regardless, they made it clear that it was their intention to do the squish in a manner similar to the graph. Even fairly recent GC tweets that I'm too lazy to look for said that you're going to get squished proportionally more the higher lvl you are. Basically, the inflation occurs because there's multiple raid tiers each expansion. Their goal is to make stat increases from 1-90 linear the way they are from 1-59. This means 1-59 will see basically no squish at all. Everything after that will get squished at increasingly significant amounts to offset the increasingly exponential inflation that was there before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Where's this graph, dag blast it.
    http://us.media2.battle.net/cms/gall...0342970775.jpg

    source:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3885585

    It's blatantly obvious from the graph that the drop off from 85 at the time to 85 after their proposed squish (this was written before MoP was released) is a much greater percentage than the drop off at the other expansion ends (notice where the faded lines end vs the new ones).

    In their example, we're losing nothing before 60. At 60 the top ilvl drops from about 90 to about 80 it looks like (a 12% decrease in ilvl). At 70 the top ilvl drops from ~160 to ~90 (44%) . At 80 it drops from ~270 to ~ 100 (63%) at 85 it drops from ~410 to ~ 175 (58%)***.

    Again this was before MoP so in this example they were keeping the exponential inflation at end-game which was cata in this case. In reality, 85 will be more like 110 ilvl after their squish which is 74%. Following their current path, that would make MoP drop from ~580 ilvl at the end to ~120 or an 80% decrease to start the next expansion from current ilvl. That would put us where we were in the 2nd tier of BC. Optimistically, they are going to put us at ~160 in full heroic SoO warforged gear with the legendary cloak. That means we'd be exactly where we were at 70 when Wrath released.

    I remember seeing somewhere one of the devs said they'd like to squish us back to "wrath levels." I can't remember where though, but this would line up perfectly with that. Start at wrath level 70 and progress through the expansion to heroic ICC ilvl by the end of expansion #6.
    Last edited by Abysal; 2013-10-15 at 10:32 PM.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuuki View Post
    Its not really discussing semantics, because dividing everything by 1000 means llow lvl gear will have silly decimal numbers (yeey, this bow has 0.018 agility and 0.028 stamina, which will increase my health by 0.28 HP)

    The MegaDamage solution in essence will keep all numbers the same as they are now, however, they will now appear in a shortened format.
    Which is just semantics, as the gameplay remains the same in both cases.

    An actual item squish will be radically different, instead of just mega damage with a different coat of paint.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Mac223 View Post
    Good explanation.

    Lets see if I can make the item squish more understandable.

    Noooo, this is too complicated for this kind of guys :

    It's always the same uninformed morons derailing threads about the item squish with the same "i wont be able to solo old crap" and "i dont want to be weaker". I'm actually looking forward to it, most of the casual lfr crowd don't even know how to do decent damage anyway atm.

    Let me explain in a much simple way :

    1. There are 2 solutions . Squish and Megadamage .

    2. That "reduce mob power 30% - reduce player power 30% " is not Squish . Is Megadamage .

    3. Megadamage won't nerf you . Agree. But Squish will nerf you .

    4. Then someone come again to explain us that we don't understand math , and give me the Megadamage example . Like this guy over here describing the Megadamage

    If Heroic Lich King has 103M HP & takes you like 2minutes too kill, after the squish he might have 6k HP & still take 2minutes to kill. The idea is that everything should remain relative, that's the whole point of the squish.
    5. You are just talking about a different thing. Megadamage is not Squish. Actually you are the one lacking math skills .
    Last edited by vandam; 2013-10-15 at 10:28 PM.

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