View Poll Results: Thoughts?

Voters
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  • Prefer my characters getting weaker

    336 35.41%
  • Doesn't matter either way

    326 34.35%
  • Prefer my characters getting stronger

    287 30.24%
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  1. #401

    Playing with numbers:
    this is boss HP for dungeons as we level. First is the current numbers, second is the numbers scaled by a flat value. Third is a squish based on a scaling value (in this case, HP/lvl), last is scaling and flat value (HP/lvl/10). I have displayed this twice: first uses a numeric scale, second is a logarithmic scale so you can better see the changes.

    Keep in mind that boss HP at a set level is dependant on encounter mechanics: if there are adds, or times when the players don't attack the boss, typically the boss has less HP - this accounts somewhat for why I don't get smooth lines. Also note that I threw this together in short time, and am not a mathematician, so it's certainly not a viable solution here and it wouldn't surprise me when smarter people then I blow this all out of the water due to something I haven't thought of.

    Anywho, the point I am trying to make here is that it's possible to apply a variable scaling factor that will squish the game numbers by a significant factor, put still maintain a relative power gain at each level. Blizzard can choose to massage the data even further to make the lines curve more neatly, if they wanna.

    TL;DR: a squish can still allow soloing of old content.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    Have you guys tought how ridiculously low stats will be on the lower levels ? I mean if we are keeping everything relatively the same after the squish, we gona have mobs with 1 HP and ppl doing .01 damage on lv 1.

    Personaly id like the numbers to continue to grow it will feel like I got weaker for no reason even if its still relatively the same if my DPS goes from 300k to 10k out of nowhere.
    We don't know specifically how they will do it yet. My guess is that they will start by just squishing raid gear and keep leveling gear relatively the same, this provides the biggest bang for your buck. If they do this, leveling will remain largely the same pre 60 and more or less when you are fighting same level mobs everything will be receiving the same amount of squish so it shouldn't change much. That said when you are fighting mobs that are not same level you will see a significant difference because they will have a different amount of squish applied.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    The thing is though it really isn't even a fix. If they squish iLevel by 200, which is a pretty big number(everything up until Naxx in Wrath if they did it all at once), that would only bring current iLevels down to where they were at the beginning of Cataclysm. In other words at the end of the expack we will likely be back where we were at the beginning-middle of the this expack. In other words they will have to do a squish every expack and we will still eventually end up where we are now unless they completely remove all gear progression from old content. The "problem" is fundamental to how the game is designed.
    Ok: no, that is not what I am trying to say. A flat squish won't cut it, it has to be variable based on lvl/ilvl. See graph.

  4. #404
    Scarab Lord Zka's Avatar
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    1) doesn't matter if my character's stats and dps/hps go up or down
    2) DOES matter if gear gets completely obsolete each tier or not. Hopefully gear won't get replaced that fast (and dps won't scale up so fast) after the squish. That's why I'm looking forward to it.
    3) DOES matter if my stat numbers are small, therefore can be memorized.

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  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by eem5 View Post
    ...snip...
    TL;DR: a squish can still allow soloing of old content.
    I am not sure about other people, but it isn't that I don't think it can it's just that I would rather Blizzard not have to spend their time dicking around with old content and focus on new content. If they have to do a squish every expack from now on, that seems like an awfully lot of work for something that is a number formatting issue.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    Last night, while you were asleep, everything in the universe shrunk to half size in order to please the raging blind masses that are incapable of understanding numbers larger than they can count to and to address "hardware limitations" that don't exist, only to end up creating a talking nexus that's been plaguing this forum since the people who suggested it thought it was a good idea to go forward with one choice only to back out later and attempt to fall on the other.
    Sorry, but they do. Boss health is so close to the engine's maximum that if a crunch doesn't happen then we all need to get used to having multi-target fights or huge damage reduction auras on bosses. Not to mention the engine lag some fights cause on 25 man during certain fights. The engine just can't handle huge numbers.

    Its not a unique problem. Happens all the time with software. Heck, even Hearthstone can be bugged out by certain spell combinations because it can't handle numbers in the billions.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    1) doesn't matter if my character's stats and dps/hps go up or down
    2) DOES matter if gear gets completely obsolete each tier or not. Hopefully gear won't get replaced that fast (and dps won't scale up so fast) after the squish. That's why I'm looking forward to it.
    3) DOES matter if my stat numbers are small, therefore can be memorized.
    They aren't talking about changing the percent that gear scales by. They have said current expacks will remain much the same as they are now, so within the same expack you will be replacing gear just as often as you are now, and you will be seeing a similar iLevel increase between tiers. They have said they want the player to feel the difference between gear, and that works out to a very specific iLevel increase that they have been using. What they are squishing is gear from old content. As far as memorizing goes 12K isn't harder for me to memorize than 12.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    2) DOES matter if gear gets completely obsolete each tier or not. Hopefully gear won't get replaced that fast (and dps won't scale up so fast) after the squish. That's why I'm looking forward to it.
    Gear becoming obsolete makes WoW what it is. I doubt you'll ever see the devs allowing old gear to get you very far into the next expansion, the odd bit (cloak, Garrosh heirlooms) aside.

    If gear doesn't become obsolete and it's good enough to use deep into the next expansion, what incentive is there to gear up? None whatsoever - people would just steamroll the content with their old gear and quit.
    That's what happened in EverQuest, which for many years only had small improvements for general gear - I for one found it utterly pointless to jump through all the hoops just to get a 5% increase in stats, which is why I skipped a good deal of content back in the day. People skipping content is a Bad Thing for the companies making these games, as ultimately MMOs are about making you grind in order to keep you paying.

    WoW, by comparison, was a refreshing change. Gridning up through the levels actually gave gear which made a noticable difference, something that was sorely lacking in EverQuest.

  9. #409
    These poll options seem a bit skewed.

  10. #410
    Personally dont mind if they squish the stats or not, tho i'm in slight favor of the squish. The numbers are getting abit crazy as of right now, people with over 1million hp and hitting for 500.000. Feels like the numbers got way big too fast, if we had 50% of the increase in mop i'd be fine with people reaching 1 million at lvl 100.

  11. #411
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    As long as soloing old content is not affected by it, I couldn't care less if I'm doing 300k dps or 3k. Actually, smaller numbers are better imo as it is easier to identify crits lol.

  12. #412
    I genuinely couldnt care less. My character will still be exactly as strong as he is now in the gear he is in now. bosses will be as easy or as difficult as they are now. Numbers are about as meaningful as the colour of an items name. And while i know that gets the desperate epeen crowds dicks hard thinking about them i personally dont care at all. Its numbers. a series of digits on the top left you only ever take a glance at to see how close to dead you are or how your mana/combo points/runes are doing.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    PS. Not sure if your aware, but an opinion can *never* be wrong. It is just that, an opinion, at least do me the courtesy of acknowledging that in your next tirade
    Incorrect. Opinions can most certainly be wrong. You're confusing it with preferences or personal values.

    If you have the opinion that someone is stupid, are they stupid?

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Sorry, but they do. Boss health is so close to the engine's maximum that if a crunch doesn't happen then we all need to get used to having multi-target fights or huge damage reduction auras on bosses. Not to mention the engine lag some fights cause on 25 man during certain fights. The engine just can't handle huge numbers.

    Its not a unique problem. Happens all the time with software. Heck, even Hearthstone can be bugged out by certain spell combinations because it can't handle numbers in the billions.
    The cause of the 25 man lag doesn't have to do with boss health. It had to do with a bug in the healing code that caused too many discreet healing events to be happening. They are still investigating it further.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...602?page=9#163

    I suspect any lag in Hearthstone is also not related to big numbers but a software bug/bad design/bad programming.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    So what about monsters that used to have 300 HP? Will they now have 3 HP? and since you cant do a fraction of 1 damage, how will noobs get any challenge. The starting gear does at least 1 dps which would mean the beginning fights wouldnt be challenging at all as 3 hits with a rusty sword will kill them without even using abilities.
    That's why things don't scale in a straight line.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    I suspect any lag in Hearthstone is also not related to big numbers but a software bug/bad design/bad programming.
    Its not lag. There are specific bugs where if a number gets too high it rolls back down to zero and starts counting again.

    This exact same thing would happen in WoW if numbers aren't reduced.

  16. #416
    For the record: You should retake pollmaking 101.

    On topic: The stat squish is needed. Endgame weapons now have around 30k dps already, people see crits over a million. Take numbers from cataclysm, compare them to MoP and imagine the exponential jump our damage and health will do. It's going to be at retarded levels, imagine your ice lance criting for half a million in arena though barely scratching your target because he has tens of it.

    And math has more powerful tools than simple division to solve this problem, because that's what it is. Math.
    Last edited by Vholu; 2013-10-16 at 07:01 AM.

  17. #417
    I'm not not looking forward to it.

    Seriously it has no effect on the game, you guys have dissected it six ways to Sunday since it was first considered years ago, we've put about a million times more debate into it than it requires already.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    That's why things don't scale in a straight line.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Its not lag. There are specific bugs where if a number gets too high it rolls back down to zero and starts counting again.

    This exact same thing would happen in WoW if numbers aren't reduced.
    Computers can handle numbers far larger than what you see in WoW and Hearthstone(lol) without breaking a sweat. If something weird is going on it isn't the size of the number so much as it is likely the coding they are doing to handle the number.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    Those poll options are horribly biased.

    The stat squish cannot come soon enough. It is incredibly needed.
    This.. I might give WoW a go again if they do it in the next expansion. Large numbers not only make it very hard to track whats going it, they also make everything feel the same while small numbers make it more defined and clearer.

  20. #420
    Scarab Lord Zka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retron View Post
    Gear becoming obsolete makes WoW what it is. I doubt you'll ever see the devs allowing old gear to get you very far into the next expansion, the odd bit (cloak, Garrosh heirlooms) aside.
    It's okay that gear gets obsolete. On the other hand it's not okay that it gets obsolete so fast and so much. I don't want to carry over gear to a new expansion. I want to carry over to the next raid tier. Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot by making gear and raid content obsolete so quickly.

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