View Poll Results: Thoughts?

Voters
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  • Prefer my characters getting weaker

    336 35.41%
  • Doesn't matter either way

    326 34.35%
  • Prefer my characters getting stronger

    287 30.24%
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  1. #441
    First I want to say that the people in favor of the squish and saying it will do no harm should read through this thread in its entirety to see that they are wrong.

    Next lets list the facts as we know them.

    1. A squish must happen because the numbers are too big that we have hit the limit of what WoW can handle due to bad/old programming.
    2. Cutting all power by a certain % is the mega damage solution. It also will not work because players at level 1 will be doing fractions of damage (.01 for example)
    3. Cutting everyones power by different amounts will cause people to be weaker as compared to OTHER level players/npcs. If I cut a level 90 by 50% but a level 80 by 40% the level 90 is weaker compared to the level 80 than before. This will cause issues in soloing old content and PvP. A proposed fix for this was a zone buff for the level 90s but then what about world PvP? There would be multiple different band-aid fixes required to make this work.
    4. Blizzards track record for getting anything right the first time is virtually 0 so the likelihood this will be screwed up and have dramatic and drastic consequences is very high.
    5. Blizzard stated they will not do the squish if they can't keep everything the same as it is now which I can't see how they can possible do it which leaves us in a pickle.

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  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralgarog View Post
    Excuse me? I'm sorry to burst your bubble, and maybe you are trolling but that is the most backwardly stupid statement i've heard while reading this threat thus far.
    Excuse ME, but your post is just incomprehensible rant. The poster who I replied to specifically stated that "big numbers make combat log larger" and I told him that "ridiculous, squish won't have any noticeable effect on that". Here's the proof - let's review a line from combat log:

    Quote Originally Posted by CombatLog
    3/29 00:26:31.260 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0500000004A61B32,"Player",0x514,0x0,0xF1511050000010FB,"Ji-Kun",0x10a48,0x0,31935,"Avenger's Shield",0x2,0xF1511050000010FB,732710144,1284,66,0,0,56306,-1,2,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
    As you can see, some player (I've changed name, but it was exactly this long), did 56306 damage with his Avenger's Shield. Line took 208 bytes in this log. Now let's cut damage by whooping 1000 to just 56:

    Quote Originally Posted by CombatLog
    3/29 00:26:31.260 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0500000004A61B32,"Player",0x514,0x0,0xF1511050000010FB,"Ji-Kun",0x10a48,0x0,31935,"Avenger's Shield",0x2,0xF1511050000010FB,732710144,1284,66,0,0,56,-1,2,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
    It is now (drumroll!) 205 bytes long, a whooping 1.44% save.
    For comparison, if we'd fight with "Sul the Sandcrawler" instead, we'd gain extra 10 bytes that are already 3 times as worse increase as supposed "save" from squish. Therefore, original argument was "ridiculous". QED.

    I've skipped the part where, if I correctly understand your English, you say that squish is needed because somebody could've programmed a log parser working only with int32, but you could've as well preached to "squish" damage to 0-255 because somebody programmed some obscure tool with unsigned bytes. It is a tool author's problem and, guess what, he is the one who should take care of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralgarog View Post
    Secondly, when the squish takes place, they are going to be scaling back everything relative to everything else. If you one shot a nub pre squish, your will one shot a nub post squish. If it took you 8 minutes to complete a patchwerk fight pre squish, it takes will take you 8 minutes to complete a patchwrk fight.
    Yet ANOTHER example of pro-squisher that don't understand that there are TWO problems: subjectively big numbers and objectively large power gaps because of logarithmic scaling and both of them can't be solved by one solution. You'll either get a flat cut (one you describe) that doesn't solve gaps OR you get logarithmic cut that will fuck up relative power. It's either first OR second, not BOTH. (Side note Rivelle, so I AM generalizing, huh?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralgarog View Post
    If you enjoy large numbers how about you move to Nigeria where it costs 2400.70 Naira to pay for a month's subscription of WoW. I'm pretty sure that makes you can afford it because the monthly income of skilled workers is 136130.69 Naira. That a lot more than $850, right?
    Errr... wat?

    And the rest of your post reads "I want it because of my feelings".

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    First I want to say that the people in favor of the squish and saying it will do no harm should read through this thread in its entirety to see that they are wrong.

    Next lets list the facts as we know them.

    1. A squish must happen because the numbers are too big that we have hit the limit of what WoW can handle due to bad/old programming.
    2. Cutting all power by a certain % is the mega damage solution. It also will not work because players at level 1 will be doing fractions of damage (.01 for example)
    3. Cutting everyones power by different amounts will cause people to be weaker as compared to OTHER level players/npcs. If I cut a level 90 by 50% but a level 80 by 40% the level 90 is weaker compared to the level 80 than before. This will cause issues in soloing old content and PvP. A proposed fix for this was a zone buff for the level 90s but then what about world PvP? There would be multiple different band-aid fixes required to make this work.
    4. Blizzards track record for getting anything right the first time is virtually 0 so the likelihood this will be screwed up and have dramatic and drastic consequences is very high.
    5. Blizzard stated they will not do the squish if they can't keep everything the same as it is now which I can't see how they can possible do it which leaves us in a pickle.
    It won't affect soloing of old raids, so everything is peachy there. Why would you care about world pvp? The other max-levels are the same as you....or are you suggesting that you oppose an item squish because your griefing of low-levels has become marginally harder?
    Blizzard might have some design ideas they back out on, but never something so destructive to gameplay that they rollback and can the whole idea. And they still have to push it through PTR, so I don't think that they will break the game when they put the squish into effect.
    Mother pus bucket!

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    It won't affect soloing of old raids, so everything is peachy there.
    An item squish most certainly WILL affect soloing of old raids. The bandaid fix for this would be to implement a zone wide buff for characters. The problem here is the zone wide buff needs to vary depending on the levels that enter the instance and then even further it would need to scale individually because what if I on my level 90 take a level 83 into FL? This would require a fair bit of coding to make work.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    Why would you care about world pvp? The other max-levels are the same as you....or are you suggesting that you oppose an item squish because your griefing of low-levels has become marginally harder?
    Well I don't care about world pvp myself either way but a lot of people on PvP realms would care because that is why they rolled on PvP realms. And you can't say oh well, griefing a low-level is harder now suck it up and deal because they goes completely against Blizzards stance of everything being the same as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    Blizzard might have some design ideas they back out on, but never something so destructive to gameplay that they rollback and can the whole idea. And they still have to push it through PTR, so I don't think that they will break the game when they put the squish into effect.
    Oh I have no doubt Blizz will do a squish. I also have no doubt Blizz will screw it up. And do you honestly think that Blizz gets everything fixed on the PTR because if you do you should really look at pretty much every expansion with the numerous bugs that get put out into live.

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  5. #445
    Pandaren Monk 1ns's Avatar
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    Poll is kinda useless tbh. Where is the option for "i dont want any item squish at all" ?
    There is no such thing as "ability bloat" just l2fp.

  6. #446
    People are still arguing about this? I guess the OP was asking for it, but still.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    2. Cutting all power by a certain % is the mega damage solution. It also will not work because players at level 1 will be doing fractions of damage (.01 for example)
    That's not the mega damage solution. The mega damage solution is just a change in the way damage is displayed. It doesn't change stats.
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    3. Cutting everyones power by different amounts will cause people to be weaker as compared to OTHER level players/npcs. If I cut a level 90 by 50% but a level 80 by 40% the level 90 is weaker compared to the level 80 than before. This will cause issues in soloing old content and PvP. A proposed fix for this was a zone buff for the level 90s but then what about world PvP? There would be multiple different band-aid fixes required to make this work.
    They don't need to reduce by different amounts. I don't know where you get this idea from.

    What the squish does is make raid gear of previous expansions less of an upgrade over levelling gear.
    Shahad , Kevkul , Shaithan
    <Magdalena's pet>

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes, I know what a string is. I do have a Ph.D. in Computer Science.

    My point is the total bandwidth usage of strings is quite small, compared to the data for positioning and combat. The canned text from encounters and abilities are stored in the client and aren't transmitted across the network each time they appear (some formatting does occur; the "%s" and the like you see in datamined messages are where variable parts like character names are plugged in.)
    I was talking about trade chat, guild chat and stuffs like that.

    Go to a server like Illidan and stay at the shrine for a few mins and check how much chat you'll see.

    That's much much more than anything in combat, so if bandwidth is a problem then squish chat first.

    Edit:

    I forgot about the 0 thing that C does at the end of a string (in Pascal it's the string's length at [0]) so that's an extra byte.
    Last edited by Thyranne; 2013-10-16 at 02:56 PM.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    That's not the mega damage solution. The mega damage solution is just a change in the way damage is displayed. It doesn't change stats.
    Having 1,000 displayed as 1k is functionally the same as cutting all power from 1000 down to 100. The display looks different but realistically it is the same. That being cut all power by the same %.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    They don't need to reduce by different amounts. I don't know where you get this idea from.
    Yes, yes they do. Say we slash everything by 30%. Well what happens to the level 1? Will they be hitting a .05 hp mob for .01 damage and have .13 agility? You need to reduce by different amounts or you get fractions which would just look beyond stupid and be very confusing to new players.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    What the squish does is make raid gear of previous expansions less of an upgrade over levelling gear.
    You really don't understand at all what you're talking about.

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  10. #450
    Pandaren Monk 1ns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    First I want to say that the people in favor of the squish and saying it will do no harm should read through this thread in its entirety to see that they are wrong.

    Next lets list the facts as we know them.

    1. A squish must happen because the numbers are too big that we have hit the limit of what WoW can handle due to bad/old programming.
    2. Cutting all power by a certain % is the mega damage solution. It also will not work because players at level 1 will be doing fractions of damage (.01 for example)
    3. Cutting everyones power by different amounts will cause people to be weaker as compared to OTHER level players/npcs. If I cut a level 90 by 50% but a level 80 by 40% the level 90 is weaker compared to the level 80 than before. This will cause issues in soloing old content and PvP. A proposed fix for this was a zone buff for the level 90s but then what about world PvP? There would be multiple different band-aid fixes required to make this work.
    4. Blizzards track record for getting anything right the first time is virtually 0 so the likelihood this will be screwed up and have dramatic and drastic consequences is very high.
    5. Blizzard stated they will not do the squish if they can't keep everything the same as it is now which I can't see how they can possible do it which leaves us in a pickle.

    1) Incorrect. The code can easily be updated.
    2) The %percent cut would not work as you state yourself. That idea is doomed.
    3) Confusing and would make players feel less powerful > steps backwards > sub losses
    4) Which is yet another reason to update the code unless you wan't to fuck shit up totally in the future
    5) I don't see how its possible either.
    ----
    6) Blizzard upgrades the code, couple of programmers could do this easily, the numbers go on to grow and it is not an issue unless you suffer from severe dyscalculia.
    1543534 is a confusing number to read for some, but 1M 543K or 1.543M (or however you like it) is not. Its really no difference from 10.000 + or 100.000 we've had already. 10K instead of 10.000 100k instead of 100.000 1M instead of 1.000.000.
    There is no such thing as "ability bloat" just l2fp.

  11. #451
    The Patient Arainie's Avatar
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    Your poll is biased to the max. I don't prefer my character "getting weaker", since it won't be weaker in comparison with others or in comparison with current content. I do however want numbers to be fixed. 1 million health is ridiculous and would probably be 2-5 mllion in the next expansion, 1000 health is a far healthier number. An item level/stat squish doesn't make your character weaker, it just makes your number-peen smaller.

    Quote Originally Posted by NSrm View Post
    1) Incorrect. The code can easily be updated.
    ...
    6) Blizzard upgrades the code, couple of programmers could do this easily, the numbers go on to grow and it is not an issue unless you suffer from severe dyscalculia.
    You're so incredibly misinformed. Changing the code is not just like changing a spare part on a car, if you had the slightest clue about programming you'd understand. Excellent structure and proper documentation makes it easier to change parts of the code without breaking the rest, but it's still far from trivial.
    Last edited by Arainie; 2013-10-16 at 03:31 PM.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Oh I have no doubt Blizz will do a squish. I also have no doubt Blizz will screw it up. And do you honestly think that Blizz gets everything fixed on the PTR because if you do you should really look at pretty much every expansion with the numerous bugs that get put out into live.
    This is the part that gets me. No matter how many times you explain the laws of mathematics to people, irreverent of the 10 years of history of Blizzard fucking up simple, simple things, these willfully ignorant people will defend to the "item squish" to the bitter end.
    "It is a demonstration of incomprehensible hubris to quote one's self, especially in one's own forum signature."
    ¬PetersenIII

  13. #453
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistsofBoredom View Post
    With Mists of Pandaria, our characters have gotten really powerful. Tanks have broken 1 million health, DPS do a few hundred thousand DPS, and so forth.

    But there's a strong indication, I think, that in the next expansion we'll have item level toned down and our characters severely weakened. How do you feel about that? Are you alright with it, or do you prefer getting even stronger next expansion?
    Holy petitio principii Batman!

    you should be ashamed for writing that poll
    the next time some asks me to explains what 'begging the question' actually means i will link this thread.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyranne View Post
    I was talking about trade chat, guild chat and stuffs like that.
    Even on high pop servers, the bandwidth of text isn't going to be all that high. It's incredibly obtrusive, of course.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Having 1,000 displayed as 1k is functionally the same as cutting all power from 1000 down to 100. The display looks different but realistically it is the same. That being cut all power by the same %.
    THEY AREN'T SQUISHING YOUR DAMAGE DIRECTLY. Got that? Good.
    They are squishing the item levels of past raid gear. Your stats. It means your damage goes down, sure. But they aren't just dividing your damage by 100. The mega damage solution is just altering the display. You still do 1345670 damage hits, it's just rounded by the display. The squish actually lowers your stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Yes, yes they do. Say we slash everything by 30%. Well what happens to the level 1? Will they be hitting a .05 hp mob for .01 damage and have .13 agility? You need to reduce by different amounts or you get fractions which would just look beyond stupid and be very confusing to new players.
    I already showed the graph. 1-60 keeps it's linear gear progression. Which doesn't matter in the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    You really don't understand at all what you're talking about.
    Am I the only one who's read the blog? It clearly states that they plan on compressing the huge growths of endgame gear that happens at level 60, 70, 80 and 85 (and presumably 90 since the blog was released before MoP). Here's a quote, clear as day: " Very few players notice or care how much of an upgrade the Black Temple loot is over the Serpentshrine Cavern loot when their characters are level 80" that illustrates that very point.


    Please, bother to actually read the Dev Watercooler on the issue: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3885585
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  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Oh I have no doubt Blizz will do a squish. I also have no doubt Blizz will screw it up.
    Why is it that the item squish is going to be all screwed up, but the tweeking of all the software to handle 64 bit numbers wouldn't be?

    Face it: Blizzard has to change SOMETHING. Just ignoring the problem is not an option. So even if you are right, and there will be bugs, that doesn't mean the item squish isn't the best option, since all the other options could also introduce bugs (and since they would involve deep changes to data types in the infrastructure of the game, will likely be harder to get right.)
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  17. #457
    Dreadlord Ironjaws-Mike's Avatar
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    Well, I gladly welcome a squish, would be fun. I just think its annoying with all those mega-numbers there is, I prefer it in moderation. : )

    And well, people saying it means we get weaker, dont we technically get weaker with the new exp, since well, new gear, we are weak etc?

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Why is it that the item squish is going to be all screwed up, but the tweeking of all the software to handle 64 bit numbers wouldn't be?

    Face it: Blizzard has to change SOMETHING. Just ignoring the problem is not an option. So even if you are right, and there will be bugs, that doesn't mean the item squish isn't the best option, since all the other options could also introduce bugs (and since they would involve deep changes to data types in the infrastructure of the game, will likely be harder to get right.)
    Updating the code would have bugs. Fucking with game mechanics like they're going to do will have bugs AND ridiculous imbalances. So yeah, which of those sounds more desirable?
    "It is a demonstration of incomprehensible hubris to quote one's self, especially in one's own forum signature."
    ¬PetersenIII

  19. #459
    Yea I can't answer your poll. It's doesn't poll the correct things.

    I guess I don't care either way. If somehow the item squish and smaller numbers help with game performance and everything scales equally go for it. Don't care if my HPS is 150k or 10k as long as it is scaled correctly everywhere.

    However if there really is no problem with large numbers performance wise or hardware capability....That's just fine too.

    In the end though as long as it scales everything will be the same and no one should feel weaker just because the numbers are smaller.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciddy View Post
    As long as it doesn't affect my ability to solo old content, I give a grand total of 0 shits.
    I think this pretty much sums up how I feel about it. Along with it making PvP less of a nightmare.

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