Poll: Thoughts?

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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    let's go metric and tautological
    The first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    No. It's not about numbers being difficult to read. It's about the fact that when numbers grow to ridiculous level, they lose their value. They become silly. A good example would be the power levels of Dragon Ball. At an early point in the series, "over 9000" was a really high power level. Yet, late in the series we saw numbers in the millions. This makes the numbers lose their value. Again, it has nothing to do with difficulty in understanding of big numbers. Trust me, I'm a numbers guy, I love big numbers. But once upon a time, 50k HP was a lot. Which makes millions of HP feel silly.
    I guess I just can't understand this logic. For me personally I barely even look at the numbers in my character sheet. I only care if an upgrade gives me more stats than what I'm currently wearing and if I'm at the caps. And those particular numbers are only in the thousands. But my health or the tanks health doesn't mean anything to me because it's all represented by a bar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The thing is, they have to do SOMETHING. The system will break in the next expansion without some kind of change. So your argument "Blizzard will screw up!" applies regardless, and is no reason to object to the squish over the other courses of action.
    I'm not disputing this. A few pages back you'll see where I posted facts as we know them and number 1 was that a squish had to happen. I'm not a programmer (I was but I hated it) but apparently some people are putting forth the idea of updating the engine to 64 bit instead of 32 bit. Now I don't know what will be easier or harder but what I do know is the people suggesting 64bit are saying it'll hold us over for years and years while the item squish, Blizz themselves have said will need to be done every few expansions. That just seems like a silly thing to do.

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  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I'm not disputing this. A few pages back you'll see where I posted facts as we know them and number 1 was that a squish had to happen. I'm not a programmer (I was but I hated it) but apparently some people are putting forth the idea of updating the engine to 64 bit instead of 32 bit. Now I don't know what will be easier or harder but what I do know is the people suggesting 64bit are saying it'll hold us over for years and years while the item squish, Blizz themselves have said will need to be done every few expansions. That just seems like a silly thing to do.
    I AM a programmer, and I'm quite prepared to believe that updating the datatypes in the server, client, database, and auxiliary software, from 32 to 64 bits, could be expensive and fraught with risk. And I'm prepared to believe Blizzard when they decide it wasn't the right thing to do.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I AM a programmer, and I'm quite prepared to believe that updating the datatypes in the server, client, database, and auxiliary software, from 32 to 64 bits, could be expensive and fraught with risk. And I'm prepared to believe Blizzard when they decide it wasn't the right thing to do.
    But do you really think doing the item squish every other tier is a better alternative? If I implemented a fix I'd want it to be one and done not do this every few months/year, especially if it is likely they will screw it up. Think of it like maintenance on Tues. First it started as a full day and is now generally down to 15 minutes. Sure after a while they'll get better at the squish but do you want to suffer through them learning it?

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  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    But do you really think doing the item squish every other tier is a better alternative?
    Yes I do. In fact, I think it would be a good thing for the game even if there were no technical reason to require it, although in that case it might not be worth the cost. Still, getting rid of the silly ilvl jumps at past expansion "scars" would have a number of good effects on gameplay.

    I will add that I think your hysterical attitude about changes to the game doesn't help your position at all. It's almost rabbit-like in its paralysis.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-10-17 at 08:42 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by MistsofBoredom View Post
    With Mists of Pandaria, our characters have gotten really powerful. Tanks have broken 1 million health, DPS do a few hundred thousand DPS, and so forth.

    But there's a strong indication, I think, that in the next expansion we'll have item level toned down and our characters severely weakened. How do you feel about that? Are you alright with it, or do you prefer getting even stronger next expansion?
    Not going to vote because the poll doesn't make any sense. Strength is relative. They have said many times that the squish won't affect your ability to do whatever you are doing. You don't get "weaker" because the mobs will squish down with you. If you have half the HP, guess what? the mobs will hit half as hard. That's not getting "weaker," unless you are just talking about literally the numbers getting larger or smaller. Here's how you should have worded it:

    Do you like the item squish idea?
    Yes?
    No?
    Indifferent?

    That's how you do a poll. Yours is like saying "Do you want to shoot yourself in the knee, or shoot someone else in the knee?" Of course you want to get more powerful, but if I do 100 DPS at level 10 and the level 10 mob has 100 health, I will kill him in 1 second. If I do 200 dps at level 10 and the level 10 mob has 200 health, I kill him in one second. So explain to me how the first is less powerful than the second. I'm curious how this is playing out in your head, because it's bonkers to me.

    You want to see bigger numbers, great, but you have to understand that in the next expac, if we go up 10 levels, you are looking at millions of HP on every player and probably million DPS. Personally, that sounds stupid to me. I think we should go back down to vanilla or TBC days TBH. Level 100 you have 10k HP, do ~1k DPS. The numbers just don't mean anything and it's superficial to suggest otherwise. It's all relative strength, not raw strength.

    I don't actually care about the numbers I see on screen a whole lot, it's just a matter of dropping a few zeroes. What's stupid to me is you get a legendary cloak with 1700 in one stat, 2600 in another stat and 900 in 3 more stats. It's getting outrageous. Compare that to a high end level 60 cloak. They had 22 stamina and 15 intellect. You're talking about the gear going up almost 200 fold in 30 levels. That's adding up the stats and getting a ratio. Should a level 90 be 200 times stronger than a level 60? I don't know the answer, but it's mind boggling at this point with the stats.

    Let's look at weapons:
    level 60 2h sword: 63 DPS
    level 90 2h sword: 7600 DPS

    Doesn't that kind of blow your mind a little bit?
    Last edited by Varabently; 2013-10-17 at 08:48 PM.

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes I do. In fact, I think it would be a good thing for the game even if there were no technical reason to require it.

    I will add that I think your hysterical attitude about changes to the game doesn't help your position at all. It's almost rabbit-like in its paralysis.
    Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black..

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  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I AM a programmer, and I'm quite prepared to believe that updating the datatypes in the server, client, database, and auxiliary software, from 32 to 64 bits, could be expensive and fraught with risk. And I'm prepared to believe Blizzard when they decide it wasn't the right thing to do.
    I have a feeling that you've never done anything like that.

    But seriously, unless they implemented the whole thing in assembly (I really doubt they did, maybe the server) then I can't see why it'd take so long.

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black..
    Really? Please point to where I get all hysterical about the prospect of Blizzard changing anything whatsoever.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Really? Please point to where I get all hysterical about the prospect of Blizzard changing anything whatsoever.
    You're not but if I'm hysterical in saying it's a bad idea you're hysterical in saying Blizz can do no wrong.

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  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    But do you really think doing the item squish every other tier is a better alternative? If I implemented a fix I'd want it to be one and done not do this every few months/year, especially if it is likely they will screw it up. Think of it like maintenance on Tues. First it started as a full day and is now generally down to 15 minutes. Sure after a while they'll get better at the squish but do you want to suffer through them learning it?
    ...WTF do you get that they will squish every few months, every other tier?
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Squish is useless, because it just delays the inevitable. Numbers will get out of hand again. Regular squishs inc?
    Maybe? With the squish we had planned for MoP, we wouldn't need to do it again for 2-3 expansions. Every 1 might feel weird. (Source)
    The game is barely about to hit 9 years old and is on its 4th expansion. 3 expansions from 6.0 when they're hoping to do the squish is over 50% of its current age...

  12. #672
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post

    Let's look at weapons:
    level 60 2h sword: 63 DPS
    level 90 2h sword: 7600 DPS

    Doesn't that kind of blow your mind a little bit?
    not the slightest bit considering that about 7 years have passed since then. being several times more powerful than years ago in a fantasy game is perfectly fine for me

  13. #673
    Over here being conversational on the original topic: I look forward to a stat squish because numbers are hard for me. 4 digit numbers are easy to compare until I start having to go "okay so this one has 132 more Stat A, but this one has 73 less Stat B. I'd give up these 1567 points to Stat C, but get 1642 to Stat D instead. and I'd gain about 40 Armor. ...I have no idea which one of these is better." .. ... Yes, go ahead and laugh at me, but I'd rather have to deal with "this one has 3 more Stat A, but this one has 2 less Stat B. I'd give up these 57 points to Stat C, but get 64 to Stat D instead. and I'd gain about 4 Armor" -- those numbers are for more "real" to me.

    As long as the difference is basically in how it's displayed to me and not in the relative power level of my character, I'm happy.

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    You're not but if I'm hysterical in saying it's a bad idea you're hysterical in saying Blizz can do no wrong.
    I didn't say Blizzard can do no wrong. What I'm objecting to is the assertion that "Blizzard can make mistakes" implies "Blizzard shouldn't make changes".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    ...WTF do you get that they will squish every few months, every other tier?
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Squish is useless, because it just delays the inevitable. Numbers will get out of hand again. Regular squishs inc?
    Maybe? With the squish we had planned for MoP, we wouldn't need to do it again for 2-3 expansions. Every 1 might feel weird. (Source)
    The game is barely about to hit 9 years old and is on its 4th expansion. 3 expansions from 6.0 when they're hoping to do the squish is over 50% of its current age...
    Still, they could just not make everything scale absurdly every new expac, but no, that makes too much sense, let's just keep making the numbers crash and burn after huge absurd increases.

  16. #676
    As long as it doesn't affect my ability to solo older content with ease I'm not overly bothered either way.

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmoure View Post
    As long as it doesn't affect my ability to solo older content with ease I'm not overly bothered either way.
    I think I've seen this response like a billion times, and in the exact wording too! STOP POSTING THE SAME THING SIR.

  18. #678
    Deleted
    Fundamentally I disagree with Blizzards philosophy that everything should scale immensely with expansions (I believe the blue post I'm thinking of was something like 'we want players to feel hugely more powerful with the new expansions'). There's other ways to do that, and also I don't see whats wrong with having the same progression throughout the game, picking up where the last one left off basically.

    Also, this is the worst poll I've ever seen. But I do find it hilarious that the OP tried to word it extremely negatively for those in favor of the squish but it's still the leading voted for option.

  19. #679
    Troll poll if I ever saw one.

  20. #680
    It wouldn't bother me so much, i think large numbers are inherently harder to ascertain and it does get lost in a blur, i don't know if they should go right back to what it was like in classic, but they could definitely scale the ilevel back throughout so that the increases are on par with what it was like back then, if you look at the upgrades during lvl 60 they were quite minor compared to now, where each tier is about 30 to 40 ilvls higher than the last, compared with going from t1 to t3 which was about a 20 ilvl difference.

    as for abilities, all i can say is good luck with that one blizzard, i'm glad i'm not the guy who has to rebalance the entire game and every single ability on all classes. that will make pvp interesting all over again, and by interesting i mean create lots of whine.

    i think the main problem with whatever they do is, eventually if they keep pushing out expansions its only going to end up like this again.

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