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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    That's 4 people too much
    World first race for 1 man raids:

    - Starym: Aaaaaand coming in at World #2817 the first class to clear 12/12H that isn't a Blood dk!!!!!!

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    That's 4 people too much
    And Mione just ended the thread

    But really, a raid by definition requires a large group of people. Thats the difference. 5 man is small and hardly considered a raid.

    I guess the real point though is the request for longer dungeons which is fine except I would keep them out of LFD randoms. Maybe have them drop half a tier above heroic dungeons or something to compensate for the length and commitment.

    I think many would probably think BRD, UBRS, Kara type length for 5 people which would be great but the incentive to do them would be minimal and anything more than minimal would be problematic.

  3. #43
    5 man raids are essentially capped with respect to difficulty. There's only so much you can do in a 2 minute fight. At the beginning of each expansion, healers have bad mana efficiency, which removes the possibility of 5-10 minute fights, unless you give the bosses all 1 shot mechanics and very little damage otherwise.

    Also, if you think good guilds/groups of players figure out and kill HC raids fast now? The spread of skill is even higher in 5 man groups. If you tuned 5 man raids for a group, composed of, say, members of Sco's challenge mode group (look up streams of his early MoP CM gold medals), and they were supposed to wipe 100 times per boss? Then no one would down the bosses, ever. But if you tune them even slightly under, then people complain because method's best 5 cleared the raid that was supposed to last 3 months in 2 hours.

    Plus, wouldn't the mechanics get really dull? You can't have the staples like tank switches, random mind controls, random disables, etc. because if the healer is targeted and the group is taking raid like damage, then there's no chance of beating it.

    I love the idea of challenging 5 man content, but trying to integrate it into raiding would be a disaster of epic proportions.

  4. #44
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    I vote you do Challenge Modes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  5. #45
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    You can do 5man flex, it is a raid. You get INSANE loot compared to any other 5man content.

  6. #46
    Dreadlord Fungj's Avatar
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    I would like to see harder dungeons but nothing raid like.

  7. #47
    Technically, they can add these by simply including actually difficult dungeons alongside each raid tier. For example, Halls of Reflection were pretty painful for non-raiders when it came out initially. One could include ZA and ZG as something alongside Firelands, especially since they were our only "new" 5-man content until DS, and those were ridiculously painful to go through because of how inexperienced and, for lack of a better term, bad so many players were even after dealing with other cata heroics for most of the year.


    We don't need 5-man "raids", we just need the good ol' challenging heroic-level only 5-mans to be released alongside the normal raids that have some actual challenge to justify the rewards. Hell, don't even make them available for LFG.
    "If I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all."

  8. #48
    High Overlord Gorthan's Avatar
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    what about 1 man raiding? Even better.

  9. #49
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    I'd rather have tons of encounters similar to the green fire warlock encounter. Challenging but doable, requiring solid strategy and knowledge of mechanics.

    The rest of you be damned, 5 people is definitely 4 to many.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Why in the blimey balls are people referring to Cata heroics as "challenging", anyway? They required CC for trash because of pack damage output. That's about as "challenging" as it got - if you actually used CC, it was never hard. It was tedious, not engaging. If you really want to see challenging 5-mans, make 5-man fights that have the same hazards as rank 7/8 Brawler's Guild bosses or equally individually taxing mechanics. We're talking Ahoo'ru/Nibbleh/Disruptron level shit-on-the-ground, here.
    You've contradicted yourself in the first two sentences there. If the mobs did enough damage to make CC useful, then they were challenging. Blizzard even came out and said that the likes of Stonecore Heroic had a very low success rate with LFD groups. Many of the bosses had mechanical difficulty on par with TBC raidbosses.

    In fact I think they offered a fairer challenge than TBC heroics, which were more often "stack cc or your blue geared tank dies to stupid damage output". Very few of the bosses were harder than the trash.

    While you could have some interesting 5 man encounters, they'd be heavily limited compared to 10s and 25s. Magister's Terrace Kael'Thas wasn't anywhere nearly as interesting as the 25 man version.
    On the other hand, the ZA remake did a good job of transferring most of the 10 man mechanics to 5s. I think the only thing lost was the tank swap on the bear boss.
    Last edited by Tamerlane2; 2013-10-16 at 07:30 AM.

  11. #51
    Class imbalance would be too much of a deal I think.

    Take healers for example. It already is a massive boon to bring a priest or monk healer along, because they add a respectable amount of dps. Why would anyone run 5mans without one if it means having 3.5 dps instead of 3? It makes any type of berserk timer almost a non-issue for such a group.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by shoooter View Post
    I, too, am ready for the return of Cata-style heroics. Challenge mode is not an adequate replacement. Heroic scenarios aren't either. If they can scale 3 versions of each raid, why can't they have another tier of 5-mans?
    Why not 2 man raids? I don't want to look for 3 more players.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    This isn't a raid... that is a party.

    2-5 = party

    6-40 = raid.

    Even 25 is to small for flex and LFR. Both should be able to be 40man. 2 tanks, 10 healers and 28 dps and you have fixed the problem with lack of tanks for LFR.
    A proper 40man raid should have 4-5 tanks imho.

  14. #54
    Great idea, but it won't happen again. You have far too many players who enjoy the idea that dungeons are faceroll to the point of complete irrelevancy, because valor.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  15. #55
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Great idea, but it won't happen again. You have far too many players who enjoy the idea that dungeons are faceroll to the point of complete irrelevancy, because valor.
    You make it sound like these are mutually exclusive. You can have fairly easy entry-level heroic dungeons, and then have "Nightmare Dungeons" that are actual endgame content for small groups. The only possible argument here would be "rehash" as the nightmare dungeons would likely be like Challenge Modes are now, plus maybe some new/revamped dungeons (e.g. next xpac there are let's say 8 normal dungeons, and 11 nightmare dungeons with three being updated old world dungeons).
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  16. #56
    Makes as much sense as a 40man Arena.
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  17. #57
    Very, very difficult dungeons that you can progress through with a tight knit group of friends would be awesome. Don't give them any awesome loot, but some achievements and mounts. Much like challenge modes, but where gear actually plays a role and the difficulty is the mechanics and not how challenge modes work.

  18. #58
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    Very, very difficult dungeons that you can progress through with a tight knit group of friends would be awesome. Don't give them any awesome loot, but some achievements and mounts. Much like challenge modes, but where gear actually plays a role and the difficulty is the mechanics and not how challenge modes work.
    I think that would suffer the same issue as Challenge Modes - less people want to do it because there's no meaningful loot. Although I also think with CMs the fact it's a timed run factors in as well because some classes excel, some don't, and it relies on gimmicks (stealth potions, stacking rogues for that mass stealth) to clear fast. Since I highly doubt WoW could ever implement Nightmare Dungeons without a total redesign of the game (let's face it: WoW is based on EQ before it and the devs like big raids, that won't ever change), I would be fine with Challenge Modes without the timer. Make it hard, scale the gear, but reward persistence and skill and not gimmicks. Clearing a CM should be an accomplishment whether it took you 15 minutes or 50 minutes; keep the leaderboard/times for competitive purposes, but don't tie the rewards to silver/gold times. As I suggested above, make the mount a reward for clearing half of the dungeons, make the armor a reward for clearing all of them. You still get the challenge but it doesn't feel like a mad dash and I think more people would be interested in doing them.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by kenshinag View Post
    So you want early Cata type heroics? With tough bosses, interesting mechanics, long dungeons, and gear that was awesome at the time and appropriate, because it was rare to complete those through LFD? I'm all for it.
    That would be fucking awesome!

    Problem is the boss design. You would only have one tank and one healer. You can't make the 10 player version to a 5 player version.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Clearing a CM should be an accomplishment whether it took you 15 minutes or 50 minutes; keep the leaderboard/times for competitive purposes, but don't tie the rewards to silver/gold times. As I suggested above, make the mount a reward for clearing half of the dungeons, make the armor a reward for clearing all of them. You still get the challenge but it doesn't feel like a mad dash and I think more people would be interested in doing them.
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