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  1. #241
    you make it fit, no one wants to read essays on these, well except the really interested, who can spare the time, so I do not take offence if you didn't read the 11 pages on this topic to see how well "healing" forsaken can actually fit and how exciting it can be. If you've read em all and you still disagree, then i'llbe convinced you just don't like the idea, as long as you gave it a fair chance.

    there are other options. Could give the forsaken human san'layan (vampires), they're not ghouls like the current forsaken are, they look human and use a humanized version of the new blood elf model, giving access to players.

    another option some suggested was using groups like the Syndicate, Defias Brotherhood, Ravenholdt - but all these bodies scream alliance human as they are tied to the alliance and have not been tied to the horde prior to this. If they had been and we had established a non-playing group of living humans on the horde, i'd say go for it. but using them now would look too forced and again in the mind of players would feel like theh orde has become the new alliance, because alliance humans are on it. You don't get that feeling if you're using the forsaken or using vampires.

    The problem with human san'layan (vampires) is that they're not really human even though they came from human. We don't think of Worgen as human either, and part of the attraction is not just the model actually having a human.. i.e me to play with on the horde. Which is why I think cured forsaken is better than all the other options, and can actually work quite well, with a little imagination too.
    The San'layn are Blood Elves, not humans. As far as I'm concerned, the undead humans that deal with that kind of Blood Magic are the Blood Death Knights (one reason I actually wasn't happy about my Frost tank having to convert to Blood).

    I think there's scope for one of the many more mercenary human factions to pick a side; same could apply to Tauren who identify with the Night Elves through their shared naturalism (I recall it was Night Elves that gave or returned Druidism to the Tauren, whichever). I think that approach is much cleaner than finding a cure for undeath - it's pretty obvious such a "cure" would be weaponised by everyone to fight those undead who had embraced their immortality, which is all of them since they already had been given that choice at the point of being risen.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The San'layn are Blood Elves, not humans. As far as I'm concerned, the undead humans that deal with that kind of Blood Magic are the Blood Death Knights (one reason I actually wasn't happy about my Frost tank having to convert to Blood).

    I think there's scope for one of the many more mercenary human factions to pick a side; same could apply to Tauren who identify with the Night Elves through their shared naturalism (I recall it was Night Elves that gave or returned Druidism to the Tauren, whichever). I think that approach is much cleaner than finding a cure for undeath - it's pretty obvious such a "cure" would be weaponised by everyone to fight those undead who had embraced their immortality, which is all of them since they already had been given that choice at the point of being risen.
    you're right the blood elves are not human nor are the san'layan human, i was talking about adapting the san'layan to humanity, i.e. a san'layan finds away to transfer this vampiric condition to humans, forming the human san'layan (obviously they'll have a slightly different name), and we use these. There is obivously a basis for this in lore, the vampires are san'layan and they come from Arthas, same as the death knights, they were created at that time, blizzard are always introdcuing new stuff, don't be surpriesed if they adapt the san'layan to this to achieve a human forsakenk sub-race with vampiric tendencies.


    i sstill don't get why you think finding a "cure" for undeath is such a detestable idea. you mentioned such a "cure" would be weaponised, A scenario I propose in one of the earlier methods. The "cure" could ctually not be a treatment but actually some mysterious event taht affected forsaken gathered in a location, it could be something discovered by cenarius and the druids or the aspects or something that uses the waters of the well - but it only seems to work on some forsaken. WE're not suggesting ALL the forsaken undead become human, just some of them, they would still want you to be able to play as undead.

    In one of the more popular scenarios if you read back, we propose the method is leaked both to the forsaken and the alliance humans by a mystery figure who's intentions are unknown. The forsaken successfully utilize it first, and use it to restore 6 of their topundercover rogue spies tasked with infiltrating alliance intelligence and SI:7, the humans take a differnet approach, they find a way to weaponize en mass by some sort of bomb, they have no idea they have been infiltrated by the forsaken humans, but those guys are not able to stop the bomb before it is unleashed. The alliance hoped to turn all the forsaken to human thinking that owul din wone fell swoop automatically make them all alliance crippling the horde.

    boy oh boy were they mistaken, first surprise was that the bomb didn't work on all the gathered forsaken exposed to the treatment. Furthermore it didn't change the minds of any of the forsaken that were turned human, they had no inclination of becoming allinace with their restored humanity, maybe with the exception of those who were very newly forsaken - they and their fellow undead companions wipe out the alliance troop that was sent to do this. Two things occur, back in stormwind the undercover forsaken manage to destory the alliances capabilities of making and using this treatment, unfortunately for them, it is noticed that someone has infiltrated the alliance intelligence, but for now they think it might be another Onyxia type instead of forsaken, they have no idea the forsaken also had the treatment and had used.

    Sadly for the forsaken too, teh ensuing battle with the alliance troop, dmaaged and destroyed the section where their operating proceduce was being devleoped also crippling their ability to use this treatment, and the mysterious figure ensures that it is completley destroyed before it is traced back to him now his desired intention has been achieved.

    i mean that's just one of many potentiallly exciting lore developments this can spawn, I've written many more posts going into a lot of detail about potential scenarios if you scroll back. You may find them interesting.

  3. #243
    Why would cured yet still alive forsaken side with the Horde? If they went back to being "normal" humans then surely they'd see themselves as human once more and kind of take an interest in rekindling their connections with their kin? There are still families with half of their members in Stormwind and alive and some as forsaken in Lordareon. Wouldn't their ties with their kin be stronger than that of the Horde?

    O_O

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by rumaya2000 View Post
    This is the tragedy. See, he's actually pro-Alliance. As i read his theory, he thinks the Horde gets nice stuff because the Alliance is more popular. If Humans are the most popular Alliance race, then giving them to the Horde means the numbers will equalise a bit more. And the more equal the numbers, the less pressure blizzard would be under to give the Horde nice things and they might start doing nice things for the Alliance.

    A completely internally logical theory undermined by the its own crackpot nature.
    I see, so I suggest more attractive things for the horde, because I'm pro alliance, so the horde will get less attractive things and I'm crackpot?

    or coudl it be that I'm neither alliance nor horde biased, but just want some proper balance to finally exist between the two factions. But ofc someone who is only pro-horde would not like.

    Rumaya, I'm neither horde nor alliance biased, but I understand a lot of people are, just look at the "why don't you play alliance?" topic, it's part of the charm of warcraft, I expect people to be biased. However, I am not, although you're free to think or believe otherwise, I have wanted a better product overall

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laukkanen View Post
    Why would cured yet still alive forsaken side with the Horde? If they went back to being "normal" humans then surely they'd see themselves as human once more and kind of take an interest in rekindling their connections with their kin? There are still families with half of their members in Stormwind and alive and some as forsaken in Lordareon. Wouldn't their ties with their kin be stronger than that of the Horde?

    O_O
    why would they side with the alliance? I can see the alliance thinking that, but the forsaken story makes it clear that this is exactly what the forsaken tried to do as undead when they got their minds/souls freed by Sylvannas. Instead the alliance humans conitnued to hunt them down and destroy them refusing to believe they were anything more than scourge, despite the pleas, despite demonstrating they were no longer. The orcish horde saw a bit past that and the wise Thrall recognized they were actually people who had a terrible injustice carried out to them. They entered an alliance of convenience with the horde.. what makes you think that having flesh would rekindle any love for the people who tried to exterminate you and deny your exisitence?

    that's why the forsaken formed in the first place, this was the forsaken introduced. You see, it makes no difference whether some of them are living again and some are not, they would still despise the alliance and likely want to exact revenge for them trying to wipe them out. This is what makes them the perfect candidate for living humans, they are the one humans who would never identify or side with the alliance. This would be made clear again when their story is told, as most people have not played warcraft 3 and may not know this about the forsaken.


    hell most people don't even realize the forsaken are human. One of the reasons they have a hard time with this. Reminding them in the story should fix that.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-10-29 at 03:41 PM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I see, so I suggest more attractive things for the horde, because I'm pro alliance, so the horde will get less attractive things and I'm crackpot?

    or coudl it be that I'm neither alliance nor horde biased, but just want some proper balance to finally exist between the two factions. But ofc someone who is only pro-horde would not like.

    Rumaya, I'm neither horde nor alliance biased, but I understand a lot of people are, just look at the "why don't you play alliance?" topic, it's part of the charm of warcraft, I expect people to be biased. However, I am not, although you're free to think or believe otherwise, I have wanted a better product overall
    If you expect and know that people are aligned with one faction over the other then why are you trying to ruin that hard on by giving the one race to the other faction that does not belong there no matter how much lore twisting you do. It's like placing the Orcs in the Alliance, no matter how much balance it can give it doesn't matter. The franchise is fucking dead when one of Orcs v Humans are placed in the other faction. What is it that you don't get? And no, forsaken are not HUMAN HUMAN, they are forsaken dead human, no longer connected to their past as humans so don't bring them up again.

    I don't care how much the Horde gets from the devs really, I prefer it to continue to one of the core races to be given to the other faction just because of so called balance that no one else is ever complaining about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I see, so I suggest more attractive things for the horde, because I'm pro alliance, so the horde will get less attractive things and I'm crackpot?

    or coudl it be that I'm neither alliance nor horde biased, but just want some proper balance to finally exist between the two factions. But ofc someone who is only pro-horde would not like.

    Rumaya, I'm neither horde nor alliance biased, but I understand a lot of people are, just look at the "why don't you play alliance?" topic, it's part of the charm of warcraft, I expect people to be biased. However, I am not, although you're free to think or believe otherwise, I have wanted a better product overall

    - - - Updated - - -

    why would they side with the alliance? I can see the alliance thinking that, but the forsaken story makes it clear that this is exactly what the forsaken tried to do as undead when they got their minds/souls freed by Sylvannas. Instead the alliance humans conitnued to hunt them down and destroy them as scourge. The orcish horde saw a bit past that and the wise Thrall recognized they were actually people who had a terrible injustice carried out to them. They entered an alliance of convenience with the horde.. what makes you think that having flesh would rekindle any love for the people who tried to exterminate you and deny your exisitence?

    that's why the forsaken formed in the firs tplace, makes no difference whether some of them are living again and some are not, they would still despise the alliance and likely want to exact revenge for them trying to wipe them out.
    Sylvanas and his gang of forsaken had Garithos and the surviving humans slaughtered after they helped her empty Lordareon. I don't see how anything after that point is evil/wrongdoing by the Alliance, why wouldn't they assume they were the Scourge/something else. They were lead by the same leaders/Sylvanas and Varimathras) and continued to slaughter the Alliance. Did the forsaken ever try to show the Alliance they were not like the Scourge? Nah, the first thing they did was slaughtering Garithos + the rest of the Alliance in these regions.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    you're right the blood elves are not human nor are the san'layan human, i was talking about adapting the san'layan to humanity, i.e. a san'layan finds away to transfer this vampiric condition to humans, forming the human san'layan (obviously they'll have a slightly different name), and we use these. There is obivously a basis for this in lore, the vampires are san'layan and they come from Arthas, same as the death knights, they were created at that time, blizzard are always introdcuing new stuff, don't be surpriesed if they adapt the san'layan to this to achieve a human forsakenk sub-race with vampiric tendencies.


    i sstill don't get why you think finding a "cure" for undeath is such a detestable idea. you mentioned such a "cure" would be weaponised, A scenario I propose in one of the earlier methods. The "cure" could ctually not be a treatment but actually some mysterious event taht affected forsaken gathered in a location, it could be something discovered by cenarius and the druids or the aspects or something that uses the waters of the well - but it only seems to work on some forsaken. WE're not suggesting ALL the forsaken undead become human, just some of them, they would still want you to be able to play as undead.

    In one of the more popular scenarios if you read back, we propose the method is leaked both to the forsaken and the alliance humans by a mystery figure who's intentions are unknown. The forsaken successfully utilize it first, and use it to restore 6 of their topundercover rogue spies tasked with infiltrating alliance intelligence and SI:7, the humans take a differnet approach, they find a way to weaponize en mass by some sort of bomb, they have no idea they have been infiltrated by the forsaken humans, but those guys are not able to stop the bomb before it is unleashed. The alliance hoped to turn all the forsaken to human thinking that owul din wone fell swoop automatically make them all alliance crippling the horde.

    boy oh boy were they mistaken, first surprise was that the bomb didn't work on all the gathered forsaken exposed to the treatment. Furthermore it didn't change the minds of any of the forsaken that were turned human, they had no inclination of becoming allinace with their restored humanity, maybe with the exception of those who were very newly forsaken - they and their fellow undead companions wipe out the alliance troop that was sent to do this. Two things occur, back in stormwind the undercover forsaken manage to destory the alliances capabilities of making and using this treatment, unfortunately for them, it is noticed that someone has infiltrated the alliance intelligence, but for now they think it might be another Onyxia type instead of forsaken, they have no idea the forsaken also had the treatment and had used.

    Sadly for the forsaken too, teh ensuing battle with the alliance troop, dmaaged and destroyed the section where their operating proceduce was being devleoped also crippling their ability to use this treatment, and the mysterious figure ensures that it is completley destroyed before it is traced back to him now his desired intention has been achieved.

    i mean that's just one of many potentiallly exciting lore developments this can spawn, I've written many more posts going into a lot of detail about potential scenarios if you scroll back. You may find them interesting.
    At the point of rising into Undeath, they're given the choice to embrace immortality or the peace of the grave; they choose immortality. After making that choice, they seem broadly content with their condition and so don't seek to be cured. Curing them, making them mortal again goes against the choice they made to become a part of the Forsaken in the first place.

    Even if they did, I doubt that Sylvannas would allow it, since being mortal undoes their greatest strength that actually allows them to have the leverage of a significant faction; which is exactly why a cure would probably end up being weaponised - if you can cure them, you can not only kill them, but also prevent them from using some of their most potent plague based weaponry, because they'll be vulnerable to it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laukkanen View Post
    Why would cured yet still alive forsaken side with the Horde? If they went back to being "normal" humans then surely they'd see themselves as human once more and kind of take an interest in rekindling their connections with their kin? There are still families with half of their members in Stormwind and alive and some as forsaken in Lordareon. Wouldn't their ties with their kin be stronger than that of the Horde?

    O_O
    They'd side with the Horde because it had offered them sanctuary so long, and that their Forsaken kin would still be a part of it. I think the clue as to why they'd not join the Alliance is in the name: Forsaken. Just to be absolutely clear again, the current Alliance humans are not the same humans of Lodaeron - those bulk of those humans are now the Forsaken; very few joined the new Alliance.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post

    They'd side with the Horde because it had offered them sanctuary so long, and that their Forsaken kin would still be a part of it. I think the clue as to why they'd not join the Alliance is in the name: Forsaken. Just to be absolutely clear again, the current Alliance humans are not the same humans of Lodaeron - those bulk of those humans are now the Forsaken; very few joined the new Alliance.
    I wonder how the Horde would look on the now cured forsaken Human faction in their own "team."

    They called themselves Forsaken because they were dead and forsaken. They were dead and did nothing short of proving they had lost all their morals and connections with their old self. I don't see how it should be an Alliance responsibility to take when the Forsaken slaugtered the remaining alive human population in Lordareon and took their place. "so abandonded by the Alliance".

  8. #248
    High Overlord Escariot's Avatar
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    It will never happen and I'm glad it wont. Warcraft is at first about Orcs vs. Humans! Dont forget that!

    While on topic, it would be much more logical that some Blood Elves (not all but some as individuals, as OP said for humans) join the Alliance. I still cannot fathom how could an elf ally itself with an undead, a talking bull or a troll. Its absolutely crazy and has been bugging me since TBC.

    i
    cast blessin' of the hood upon you...dem dat some heavy shit 4 sho

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Escariot View Post
    It will never happen and I'm glad it wont. Warcraft is at first about Orcs vs. Humans! Dont forget that!

    While on topic, it would be much more logical that some Blood Elves (not all but some as individuals, as OP said for humans) join the Alliance. I still cannot fathom how could an elf ally itself with an undead, a talking bull or a troll. Its absolutely crazy and has been bugging me since TBC.
    it's more than that. what you're proposing is basically high elves. sure some blood elves can get up and try to join the alliance, but why would we do that when they're high elves? won't they just convert to high elves?
    Last edited by Mace; 2013-10-29 at 04:04 PM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    At the point of rising into Undeath, they're given the choice to embrace immortality or the peace of the grave; they choose immortality. After making that choice, they seem broadly content with their condition and so don't seek to be cured. Curing them, making them mortal again goes against the choice they made to become a part of the Forsaken in the first place.

    Even if they did, I doubt that Sylvannas would allow it, since being mortal undoes their greatest strength that actually allows them to have the leverage of a significant faction; which is exactly why a cure would probably end up being weaponised - if you can cure them, you can not only kill them, but also prevent them from using some of their most potent plague based weaponry, because they'll be vulnerable to it too.
    that's the beauty of a story, you can write whatever you want. No one chose to be made undead (well unless you're Lich or Necromancer), similarly no one chose to be made living again, as I said, you could write it as a one off event of mysterious or explained origin - meteor? Titan? Elune? Mystery force? Old God? who knows. You ahve to admit it does provide interesting story potentials.

    Was Sylvannas affected? if she was, what does this mean for her and the forsaken, if she was not, how would she view those of her group that were made flesh? sure they are loyal now, how can she use them? In the scenario we had the a cure leaked to the forsaken by a manipulating mysterious 3rd party, Sylvannas is the one that commissions the treatement on the 6 operatives with the intention of infiltrating Stormwind, loyalty is not in question here they don't want an alliance around, a group that viewed them as nothing worth more than refuse purposed for complete destruction.

    And mortality doesn't have to be rob them of their greatest strength, remember they were all mortal ones, and they consider themselves stronger because they survived the horror of undeath, their strength is in their minds and their will, undead bodies have disadvantages human bodies don't, they also have advantages too. you make best use of the situation. And undead can certainly be killed, being undead never made them invulnerable and initially they were supposed to have a much shorter lifespan than they currently have. Oh and they were developing plagues to wipe out both the living and the dead remember, not just the living.. you to also remember, that the Undercity has a large living population, it's a huge horde centre, an Orc Garrison of Kor'kron are stationed there, it gets many visits from Blood Elves, Orcs, trolls etc, it's the major horde fort in the eastern kingdoms.

    They are quite use to having the living around them, it doesn't stop them from having their goals, but it would make an interesting and subtle story to tell how some of them regaining their flesh does start changing some of their ambitions and direction. At the least it provides a more humane branch of the forsaken for those who wouldn't play them because they were largely pure evil. Like all sub-races, they provide a playable group of your favourite race group that has different attitudes/viewpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    They'd side with the Horde because it had offered them sanctuary so long, and that their Forsaken kin would still be a part of it. I think the clue as to why they'd not join the Alliance is in the name: Forsaken. Just to be absolutely clear again, the current Alliance humans are not the same humans of Lodaeron - those bulk of those humans are now the Forsaken; very few joined the new Alliance.
    Exactly Having your flesh alive again doesn't erase the last 10 yaears of struggle or the injustice and downright criminal activity of the alliance. Claiming Lorderaon as their own whiles it's inhabitants still walk the land in their right mind, exterminating them, forsaken humans are the one group of living humans you can be pretty sure off want nothing to do with the alliance and certainly won't blur the lines between the horde and the alliance.

  11. #251
    I play a human in real life, no reason to do it in a fantasy game too.

  12. #252
    Mechagnome DirtyCasual's Avatar
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    given that the kingdom of alterac was technically part of/allied with the horde once upon a time, the lore already exists to support this possibility, however i'm pretty sure that boats long since sailed.

    i wouldnt be all that happy about it personally, as much as it would never effect me in the slightest as i agree with the sentiment that playing a generic boring human in a fantasy MMO is just booooooooooooooooooooooring (for me anyway), it would just feel really horribly shoehorned into the current political climate inside the game.
    "A warning has been given. Their fate is now their own"

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Escariot View Post
    It will never happen and I'm glad it wont. Warcraft is at first about Orcs vs. Humans! Dont forget that!
    and having playable humans on the horde, whether they use human adapted blood elf models or the alliance human models won't change warcraft being Orcs vs Humans.

    The forsaken are humans, undead humans, and warcraft is still mainly about Orcs Vs Humans
    2. Alterac humans, living humans did side with the horde in Warcraft 2, and it didn't change warcraft from being about Orcs Vs Humans - i see no reason why human forsaken becoming living again and fighting with their undead forsaken brothers would change the Orc v Human theme, anymore than I fail to see how human san'layan (vampires) that use human models whether those models be the ones we use for the alliance or adapted to human blood elf models would change the Humans Vs Orcs theme.

    3. Finally, lest we forget, themes can change. In fact, only Warcraft 1 was truly humans v orcs. By Warcraft 3, we had undead v humans v orcs v night elves - and it was squashed down to horde and alliance of which humans play a part in both factions. And again, lest I remind you, this too can change

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Etoo View Post
    I play a human in real life, no reason to do it in a fantasy game too.
    really? I bet warcraft is not the only game you play, and almost all games you play as a human, can you think of why this is by far the overwhelming race choice for an avatar?

    ever thought of why the heroes in your movies are almost always human or human like?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    given that the kingdom of alterac was technically part of/allied with the horde once upon a time, the lore already exists to support this possibility, however i'm pretty sure that boats long since sailed.

    i wouldnt be all that happy about it personally, as much as it would never effect me in the slightest as i agree with the sentiment that playing a generic boring human in a fantasy MMO is just booooooooooooooooooooooring (for me anyway), it would just feel really horribly shoehorned into the current political climate inside the game.
    much respect to you dude, like the response. Respect your view even if i may not agree with it being boring.

  16. #256
    I've already explained the loopholes in this through the old thread where you were arguing this should be the counter to High Elves being on the alliance.

    'Rot' is not reversible, first off. You can't just suddenly make something not-rotted. Even if you did, by your explanation it would just rot away again shortly thereafter. They're still corpses after all, they don't just stop decaying.

    Second, humans =/= elves in the franchise. You can argue for days that you want humans to be on the Horde, but the only way to do that would be to give the Alliance Orcs. And when that happens, why would we bother with the factions at all anymore? Make everyone neutral, and then this whole explanation is unnecessary.

    Third, reversing undeath is easy: You KILL IT. A dead undead is back to being dead. A reversed undead is back to being dead. You're failing to understand that undead are not just suddenly exploded from life; They are KILLED AND RE-RAISED. The only way to have an undead is to kill something and bring it back to life. To reverse undeath is to kill it again. To 'remove the rot' is impossible because they're STILL DEAD, and will just rot all over again.

    Fourth, you're acting under the assumption that the Horde WANTS humans. Which they don't. Maybe a very non-vocal few do, but quite frankly most of the Horde do not want humans. We're already having trouble finding any more reasons to keep undead around, let alone human-like undead.

    Fifth, and this is purely bias: Keep your humans away from my undead. Humans suck, undead are badass, I don't want my undead ruined by your shitty humans.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I've already explained the loopholes in this through the old thread where you were arguing this should be the counter to High Elves being on the alliance.
    oi, in the other thread, this was not the topic, i was trying to let the high elf lovers see how high elf as a playable possibility had no chance of happening as it would imablance the factions too much , only thing that could sufficiently counter that was humans on the horde, which is a good idea for other reasons i had talked about there and in much older posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    'Rot' is not reversible, first off. You can't just suddenly make something not-rotted. Even if you did, by your explanation it would just rot away again shortly thereafter. They're still corpses after all, they don't just stop decaying.
    dead things are dead, they don't get up and walk around. See what I'm saying here? it's a fantasy story because usual logic has no application here, in this story, dead things can get up and walk around, if they can do that, then we can equally write that they get magically healed or some other method.

    it's a story, you write things to serve a purpose you want, and you write a good tale about it if you want it to be successful. Oh don't you think the citizens of lorderon becoming alive again is not highly desirable and cannot serve a purpose? Spent pages explaining this purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Second, humans =/= elves in the franchise. You can argue for days that you want humans to be on the Horde, but the only way to do that would be to give the Alliance Orcs. And when that happens, why would we bother with the factions at all anymore? Make everyone neutral, and then this whole explanation is unnecessary.
    as a creator and developer you don't imagine rules to keep you from doing what you need to do or really desire to do. who says that allowing humans to be on the horde means orcs have to be when humans have been on the horde as forsaken without orcs being on the alliance, and in WC2, humans also joined the horde and orcs didn't have to join the humans either in that scenario.

    no one says orcs have to = humans. You forget we the players, makers, writers etc, we are all humans, not orcs, humans will always have an advantage in the story if you want this to be hugely popular or stay hugely popular, and if you want the horde as popular as the alliance, you would give them some more recognizable and identiable as human group than just the undead that are currently there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Third, reversing undeath is easy: You KILL IT. A dead undead is back to being dead. A reversed undead is back to being dead. You're failing to understand that undead are not just suddenly exploded from life; They are KILLED AND RE-RAISED. The only way to have an undead is to kill something and bring it back to life. To reverse undeath is to kill it again. To 'remove the rot' is impossible because they're STILL DEAD, and will just rot all over again.
    Now we're fumbling over words and terminology. hey I am in a fantasy universe resurrection and raising the dead occur, both to living and undeath states, in fact undeath was a condition magically created, it's quite shocking and impossible it can be magically cured or reversed ( and you know what i mean).. or do you want me to use the term "solved" now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Fourth, you're acting under the assumption that the Horde WANTS humans. Which they don't. Maybe a very non-vocal few do, but quite frankly most of the Horde do not want humans. We're already having trouble finding any more reasons to keep undead around, let alone human-like undead.
    Not wants, the horde needs humans, and this comes not from a lore basis, but a very practical one to do with the franchise, marketing, gameplay, game balance, faction balance. We've tried a horde without humans on an MMO setting, and it's not working , we've thrown the kitchen sink at it, and still the alliance is more popular. Furthermore, I don't think anyone wants a horde with no humans in it in a movie, because that = losing.. unless the focus is a 3rd party, in which case the conflict between the two sides would take a secondary role and will have to until the horde gets humans. And we have a perfect way for the horde to get living humans why aren't we doing that again?

    And undead were always meant to be a short term thing, secondly there is no reason why a cure should cause them to cease to exist meaning, for as long as wow is around they can be around if that's what we want. Ever considered that this treatement only works on some of them? we could write that. Instead of being a treatment or a cure for all undead you use it on, it could be a one time event that hit a specific area - maybe meteor, maybe something from the twisting nether, maybe a work of the old gods, maybe Elune's doing, or perhaps a greater naaru? final use of Titan machinery that gets blown up. Algalon's intervention? and that's just for the possiblities it comes from a 1 time event.

    Or we could write Cenarius and the druids found a way, or maybe it was the Aspects, Malfurion and Thrall that found the way, or it was something to do with the WEll of Eternity or Waters of life from Panderia, a clever mage and alchemist, a mysterious character who leak his solution he knows will only work on some of the undead to the forsaken and the alliance who both use it to take out each other. The forsaken use it to change 6 of their top rogue spies human and infiltrate SI:7 whiles the humans weaponize it into a bomb to convert all the forsaken but get shocked when they discover only some fof the forsaken are changed, not all and they still hate their guts alive as much as they did undead... gaining flesh doesn't change what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Fifth, and this is purely bias: Keep your humans away from my undead. Humans suck, undead are badass, I don't want my undead ruined by your shitty humans.
    now that is just subjective. you may not be saying that when the new human models come out. but you need to understand these horde humans have nothing to do with the alliance, and that is what people are struggling. But then men have always worked better with illustrations, and I don't have a trailer to give you to demonstrate.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-10-29 at 04:41 PM.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    oi, the other thred, this was not the topic, i was trying to let the high elf lovers see how high elf as a playable possibility had no chance of happening, ias it would imablance the factions too much , only thing that could sufficiently counter that was humans on the horde, which is a good idea for other reasons i had talked about in much older posts.
    Pretty much any race on the Horde would balance it by your logic in this post. And no, don't throw "But this makes the most sense!" at me while you say, directly in your post:
    it's a story, you rwrite things to serve a purpose, and you write a good tale about it. Oh don't you think the citizens of lorderon becoming alive again is not highly desirable and cannot serve a purpose? Spent pages explaining this purpose.


    dead things are dead, they don't get up and walk around. See what I'm saying here? it's a fantasy story because usual logic has no application here, in this story, dead things can get up and walk around, if they can do that, then we can equally write that they get magically healed or some other method.
    Oh, so dead things don't rot then? Well, let's just chalk that up to- Oh wait, they do. Even in game, undead rot.

    Fantasy world or not, it still has it's own logic. And based on this logic, corpses rot. (*gasp!*) Even if you were to cure the rot, it will just return again. Otherwise, they're not undead, they're just living.

    And if they're living, they have no place with the undead.

    as a creator and developer you don't imagine rules to keep you from doing what you need to do or really desire to do. who says that allowing humans to be on the horde means orcs have to be when humans have been on the horde as forsaken without orcs being on the alliance, and in WC2, humans also joined the horde and orcs didn't have to join the humans either in that scenario.

    no one says orcs have to = humans. You forget we're humans, not orcs, humans will always have an advantage in the story if you want this to be hugely popular or stay hugely popular, and if you want the horde as popular as the alliance, you would give them some more recognizable and identiable as human group than just the undead that are currently there.
    Not at all. As a matter of fact, the game has had a pretty heavy Horde supremacy going on since Cataclysm, where Garrosh went on a pretty heavy rampage. I've heard the Alliance whining about it since it started. Yet the story is better than ever, even without human focus.

    The story requires humans in it only because they are an established race in the game. They need no focus for a good story, and quite frankly most Alliance posts I've seen complain that humans are too focused, and that focus should be shifted AWAY from humans. Last thing we need is for humans to go to the Horde when humans are already so much in the spotlight.

    Now we're fumbling over words and terminology.
    Yeah, all these here words and their meanings. How dare they be against you!

    hey I am in a fantasy universe resurrection and raising the dead occur, both to living and undeath states, in fact undeath was a condition magically created, it's quite shocking and impossible it can be magically cured or reversed ( and you know what i mean).. or do you want me to use the term "solved" now
    There is already reason, stated all over this post, that it would not be ABLE To be 'solved' in the way you suggest. Cured, solved, reversed, all of it is the SAME DAMN THING. The UNDEAD becomes DEAD. There is no middle ground. To solve/cure/reverse undeath, you KILL THE UNDEAD. Then it is DEAD. To remove the rot is to do NOTHING, as it will rot again after.

    Not wants, the horde needs humans,
    Quickly stating, NO. They do not.

    and this comes not from a lore basis, but a very practical one to do with the franchise, marketing, gameplay, game balance, faction balance.
    None of this helps your argument. You're making basless assumptions.

    We've tried a horde without humans on an MMO setting, and it's not working , we've thrown the kitchen sink at it, and still the alliance is more popular.
    Again, source? Where is this 'Horde without humans' MMO? It definitely isn't in the Warcraft setting, because I'd play that in a heartbeat.

    Furthermore, I don't think anyone wants a horde with no humans in it in a movie, because that = losing.. unless the focus is a 3rd party, in which place the conflict between to sides would take a secondary role and will have to until the horde gets humans.
    I do. The human lore in the game is bland and uninteresting to me. Give me a Warcraft movie where there are no humans, and I will give you all my money. You're making baseless claims this whole time.

    And we have a perfect way for the horde to get living humans.
    A perfect way in your perfect little world where you ignore what's already been seen in game and say "Magic. That's how."

    And undead were always meant to be a short term thing, secondly there is no reason why a cure should cuse them to cease to exist. What if this treatement only works on some of them?
    Then why does it only work on some? Why would they not cure all the undead? How does it make them not-living? Why would they stay with the Horde if they ARE living again?

    There are too many problems with what you say, and you aren't answering these problems. You're just saying "THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX". And I am. And it's still a bad idea.

    and that's just for the possiblities it comes from a 1 time event.
    These could all be recreated. Dwarves could recreate the titan technology. There are so many greater naaru, it's not even funny. Elune would cure all the undead. Old gods would prefer the chaos the undead bring. Meteors from the twisting nether could be summoned by warlocks. Algalon is a titan construct, do you really think he'd stop with just a few?

    we could write Cenarius and the druids found a way, or maybe it was the Aspects, Malfurion and Thrall that found the way, or it was something to do with the WEll of Eternity or Waters of life from Panderia, a clever mage and alchemist, a mysterious character who leak his solution he knows will only work on some of the undead to the forsaken and the alliance who both use it to take out each other. The forsaken use it to change 6 of their top rogue spies human and infiltrate SIL7 whiles the humans weaponize it into a bomb to convert all the forsaken but get shocked when they discover only some fof the forsaken are changed, not all and they still hate their guts alive as much as they did undead... gaining flesh doesn't change what happened.
    Again, all able to be recreated. And the flesh would still rot. If they are still undead, their flesh will rot away again.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2013-10-29 at 05:07 PM. Reason: give me a movie where there are no movies

  19. #259
    Mechagnome DirtyCasual's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    much respect to you dude, like the response. Respect your view even if i may not agree with it being boring.
    thats fine dude, my assertion regarding it being boring is not meant to represent a reason as to why it would not work or whatnot. its just a matter of personal taste
    "A warning has been given. Their fate is now their own"

  20. #260
    Scarab Lord Humbugged's Avatar
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    Humans in WoW are a lot older than the game. Even if you want to do your fancy-smancy RPing and RP your human as a teen/young adult, he'd still be old enough to surpass the events of WoW.

    That said, for a human to be BORN into the events of MoP or early WoW, having a few humans who'd support the Horde or peace would be a no-brainer (look at Anduin)

    for the average 30-50 year old Human, just think of what you've seen in your life. Orcs have destroyed your home twice, butchered your family no doubt as the human population isn't all that big, if you've chosen to flee from Lordaeron to Stormwind in WC3 or vice-versa in WC1-2, you've lost everything to the Orcs and want only the peace to rebuild.

    With that, unless you want to play a Human to RP some "Im a loner rebel QQ" or a child, I don't see it possible for Humans to join the Horde.
    Quote Originally Posted by Manakin View Post
    If it's too hard, go to bed and forget about it.

    - Manakin.

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