I'd quit for good and burn down the blizzard HQ (okay maybe not that last part). Sounds like the worst possible thing, I cringe at the thought. Isn't it bad enough already that the horde have gained two former alliance capitals?
I'd quit for good and burn down the blizzard HQ (okay maybe not that last part). Sounds like the worst possible thing, I cringe at the thought. Isn't it bad enough already that the horde have gained two former alliance capitals?
Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo
You already have the best kind of humans... dead ones.
Personally, though, I would like to see more human factions... or better yet... DEFINE the ones that already exist.
Let's see some flesh on the Syndicate... Ravenholdt... Wastewalkers.. etc.
however Vrykul could be squeezed in as racial faction (sub race/minor race) in the horde or in the alliance under human. I did a list of racial sub-groups in other topics, it's a favourite subject of mine as I would love to play the other factions of the races. In game currently we can only play one faction of each race. You can play a bronzebeard as dwarf but not a dark iron or wildhammer, an orc but not a mag'har orc or dragonmaw. If i were to give each race 3 racial factions here is the list i'd probably go for.
Forsaken Racial Group:
1. Undead Forsaken
2. living human forsaken
3. Darkfallen (undead forsaken elf)
Human Racial Group:
1. Stormwind human
3. Half-elf human
Orc Racial Group:
1. Durotar clans orc (normal green orc)
2. Mag'har Orc
3. Dragonmaw Orc
Dwarf Racial Group:
1. Bronzebeard (ironforge dwarf)
2. Wildhammer dwarf
3. Dark iron dwarf.
Troll Racial Group
1. Darkspear jungle troll
2. Amani Forest troll
3. Drakkari Ice troll or Original Zandalari Troll
Gnome Racial Group
1. Normal Gnome
2. Mechagnome (new gnome model but machine look)
3. Leper gnome
Tauren Racial Group
1. Mulgore Clans Tauren
3. Grim-totem Tauren (these will be dark fur toned tauren)
Night Elf Racial Group
1. Night Elf
3. High Elf (could also be human racial faction)
Blood Elf Racial Group
1. Blood Elf
2. San'layan Elf
3. Fel Elf or go for Wretched/Wanted
(not sure how we would do wretched model, could use the new undead model, but with blood elf skins and features adapted with the wretched defects)
Draenei Racial Group.
3. Eredar (this will need a development - group of dranei sent to infiltrate legion? group of Eredar defectors from the Legion? Velen finds a way to purge the mind/spiritual corruption of Eredar, in a similar way a forsaken cure came and it only works on some Eredar who were forced into man'ari)
Common things to note about the Racial sub-factions
1.They all (nearly all exist in the lore currently, those that don't like human forsaken and eredar are quite conceivable)
2. Some of the options offer a different ideology to the main ones were use to playing, a player may never have an interest in playing a durotar orc b/c he feels these guys are brutes that pillaged azeroth and stupid enough to drink demon blood and doesn't buy they're redeemed, but may be willing to play a mag'har orc that's kinda pure.
3. Notice the racial factions can all have some slight cosmetic variations to the main racial faction we already play. Since we're getting new models, blizzard would be smart to introduce the models with options that now include the remaining racial factions of the race we never could play. Note how each racial faction can use the new race model but with slight variations like skin tones, eye colour. extra features, there will also be some cross faction models, example, forsaken humans use the new human model, high elves use the new blood elf models, also to make them look a bit different from regular night elves, the highbourne could use a night elf'd version of the blood elf model. i.e. it's the blood elf model and animations, but made night elf height (nor change in stature), night elf features like ears, glowy silver eyes (males will have silver eyes too), night elf hair colour and hair styles instead of blood elf ones, night elf purple skin tones too. This allows them to at least have a different look and feel while being night elf too.
example: does the cure work on Sylvannas herself? what does it mean if she gets turned back to flesh? or doesn't? The cure could be something that just happened randomly one time even only, a mystery that gets explained, randomly hitting forsaken in a certain area, turning them to flesh it hit some but not others, or something honed by ritual and experimentation. Or it was Cenarius and the druids, or the aspects, Thrall and Malfurion with the waters of the well, or the eternal pool waters in Panderia, or some crazy Mage. Maybe it was leaked by a mysterious source, whatever it was, it was sent to both forsaken and alliance humans, forsaken used it initially on an elite group of rogues, it worked and they were sent to infiltrate SI:7 and the alliance in a way no one would suspect. The humans unknown to them weaponized with the aim changing all forsaken back to human and turning all that horde territory alliance. But they got a nasty shock, when it didn't work on all the undead forsaken, and those who it worked on had no intention on ever siding with the alliance, and would rather bring them to justice for trying to wipe out sentient beings of which they regard forsaken as. But it works, could be only on some or maybe it works on all but it's very difficult to do and all the resources were used up in the inital event that caused fair number of forsaken to turn, or Sylvannas uses it in a controlled fashion because she realizes the forsaken need a living component then discovers it only works on some or runs out of some of the substances used.
But it happens, so what were their reactions? most forsaken now turned flesh would still continue hating the human alliance for trying to wipe them out when undead, but you would tell the story of the some of the just turned forsaken who'd run back to humans since they were only newly turned..the majority would off course stay.
do they'd probably move back up into Lorderon above ground to live while their undead counterparts continue in the undercity. Becoming human again doesn't erase your memory, or change your mind, which is why they're stil horde loyal, but it would bring a certain hope and sanity to a wing of the forsaken group - each race has a faction that whiles part of them, is kind of different.. e.g. for the Orcs, Mag'har orcs are horde and loyal, but they're kind pure, honourable to the core, they never drank demon blood, etc, they embody original orc, less prone to corruption too (garrosh exception ofc), another example. Highbourne, while night elves and part of the group, are not morally pure and super good like their brothers (again there are exceptions, Staghelm turned mental evil as well right?), they're arrogant, cocky and wouldn't hesitate to get their way at the expense of others. Dark Iron dwarves while part of the dwarves are kinda the really dubious bunch. etc.. forest trolls would be a faction of the troll group, but unlike the honourable darkspears, these guys are nasty, (like most trolls you kill) .. etc. High elves and blood elves are factions of the same race, very different though the same race, high elves being on the alliance, the race has other factions that could be accessible to the horde though, including San'layan, Fel elves and Wretched in their case, the normal blood elf would be the good faction while the san'layan or fel Elf the evil faction. wretched if given would be interesting, they'd be an interesting sub group. High elf would probably end up being either part of the night elf race group as a sub-group along with highbourne and normal night elf or the human race group as a sub-group.
you can see how human forsaken fit, while forsaken they also provide a slightly different option, and an opportunity to write some heart and redemption back into the forsaken. Not all undead forsaken are cruel, sedastically evil also, you got that forsaken priest in Terokkar forest, the undead forsaken paladin of the argent dawn/crusade, remeber that undead in the sunwell trilogy that helps others. and likewise I won't expect every forsaken that became living again to end up good.. but it is interesting to explore and makes the forsaken lore quite good.
Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-10-18 at 06:33 AM.
I bet something like that would be necessary for some die hard alliance to maybe not mind the horde?
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Bear in mind, though any racial faction or group you incoporate into the playable base has to have something gutsy and kinda noble enough to play, looking at all the racial factions mace listed, all of them would qualify as playable groups. I would never make Alterac humans the group of humans playable on the horde, because no one wants to play traitors (although you could probably spin it well like they did for Gilneas), I won't use the cult of the damned either, cos no one wants to play pathetic, gullible brainwashed crazies either.
Can you give a compelling attraction to the Syndicate , Ravenholdt, Wstewalkers, Defias to make them horde worthy? can you give a compelling reason why the horde would accept them? You see it's easy with forsaken human cos they're already horde and they're already kickass - whether you write them out to be good alignment, they're already horde loyal and alreayd worthy of being playable.
OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."
And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"
Most horde players are either indifferent to the alliance, don't mind them, might mess about them, probably never play them (most hate the goofy human model, flimsy night elf, midgety dwarf).. watch out though, as new models could really re-define impressions. However alliance players feel really rough done by, I think apart from teh very pro-horde route development has taken in wow for the last 7 years (a reason I am convinced is to keep the horde attractive enough so players won't just pick alliance -which I am convinced they do because of humans), the other 2 reason alliance players can't stand the horde are (and I hear this alot) .. I can never play a monster (and whiles blood elves aren't, they view them as treacherous and monstrous because of the fel magic thing) and, there heated anger over the story is how the horde is just claiming alliance territory they have no right to.
yes, they feel they have no right to. Why? Because they feel the Orcs are aliens that really have no right to any Azeroth, despite all the developments, winning territory, invading places like Ashenvale, Southshore Lorderon etc, feels like injustice. No matter how hard blizzard spin the orcs into a likeable bunch they just don't take. It left me to theorize that maybe it was orc leadership that was the problem, and they would swallow the horde better under a native Azerothian, and probably best under blood elf leadership.
Humans, and likeable humans too btw, on the horde, would definitely change that, it would give an authenticity to the horde's right. ORcs/Trolls have been viewed and portrayed as MAJOR AGGRESSORS. However a forsaken story of redemption where some of the group turn back human provide quite the championing cause on the horde. Blood elves who aren't all evil blood suckers, and Mag'har orcs, Orcs not guilty of genocide, invasion, looting and pillaging are very strong incentives to have a change of heart concerning the horde and take off the heat.
The positives are you don't have to choose alliance just because you are humans, and like all of us feel, you dno't want humans to lose. with humans on both sides, admirable humans btw, you have a choice you can pick sides based on other criteria. With the existence of racial groups available to play like Mag'har orcs and human forsaken, you have a niche in the horde anyone can like, even though the major players continue to be the same as they are.
I do like the idea of sub-groups Mace and I and others have been touting about, they provide other options to races, not just cosmetic options, principle options. DArkspears are honourable trolls, well with Amani trolls you can have a version of the typical troll playable, etc, the playability of the amani forest troll as a troll racial faction may actually entice more people to play troll. Because atm, the darkspears are a bit odd. they are unrealistically too good and that doesn't really register, as well as you don't see typical troll behaviour properly - killing trolls in quests is not the same as an insider picture, against the backdrop of a playable Amani troll faction, you can really show how remarkable the darkspear troll actually is, it provides a framework. Amani's are nasty.. and although the forest troll racial faction could easily be Raventusk hinterland forest trolls instead of the quel'thalas Amani forest trolls, it can still provide a contrast, not quite as pronounced, but that might be a good thing as players may not want to play a relatively quite sedastic troll group as the amani but would go for a mellower version of them in the Raventusk forest trolls
anyway I bring it up to highlight how interesting dynamics can develop.
Thank you ElyPop for the sig!
No, but if what if you could join factions like the Defias Brotherhood or the Syndicate as humans? Now that'd be interesting.
It doesnt make sence at all to put the high elf in the night elf subrace.....
Blood elf are High elf ,the only difrence betwen them now is pol reasons and a small fel curuption.
As for wretch and fel elves....
The wre are mindless broken blood/high elfs.
Fel elves only serve the legion and illidan....
still they don't have to give 3 per group, and Forsaken elf, the darkfallen could fit under blood elf as well forsaken, it's the same with high elf - which can fit under human or night elf.. that's the only point I disagree with you. It's true, blood elves and high elves are 2 factions of the same race, however like humans and forsaken, they're on opposite sides, and have been since wow started, which is the one of the reason they're the only 2 I would be okay with crossing the faction divide because doing so does not violate the distinctiveness of the two sides anymore than current. I won't create any other race with a group on the other side than what's already there, because I like the distinctiveness of the current set up which includes humans on the horde as forsaken and high elves been on the alliance whether they're playable or not
also notice how blizzard seriously down played the fel corruption since they U-turned on the evilness of the blood elves.
you're right too about wretched.. they are painted as next to mindless, do they have enough to spawn a player faction out of? Tbh, no - but, they could be made to if you spin an interesting story and also like the San'layan will do, help paint the blood elves in a better light by presenting more sinister factions to them. San'layan and/or Fel elves painting the evil group, and wretched painting the addict group.
saying that, there is potential for 2 very likeable racial factions to be developed. But unlike the other racial factions that already have depth and character to them, i mean we all know a lot about dark irons, forest trolls, mag'har orcs, taunka, highbourne, high elves, etc etc, they've all played some pretty huge rolls in the story. San'layan and Wretched are a bit more mysterious, we can use that to aour advantage.
With the San'layan you can get the vampire vibe going, sort of a polar opposite to the werewolves. Werewolves are usually good in pop fiction with bad habits, a few really bad ones, the reverse is true for vamps, usually bad with bad habits, but some good ones. Whiles you don't want to write a long set up chain of quests for sub-factions because they already have substantial presences in the quest lines, might it be worth it to make an exception for the San'layan and the Wretched?
Everyone loves a the vamp that's trying, flawed obviously (like most of us) but trying to earn redemption (you can't really, but trying isn't worthless, it's a heart for doing good that leads to redemption which is given freely but cannot be earned - a common mistake a lot of people make)... you can write wonders with that sort of story. And don't turn your nose up at the cliche. Wow lore is built on cliches and pop culture references, however it's how they throw them together, and somehow incoprorate them into this intriguing world - separate elements of the fantasy pop realm that usually never mix. Like Lord of the Rings meets Underworld meets the Dawn of the Dead, meets the Clash of the Titans etc.
Wretched on the other hand, well, a lot of gamers are addicts, and this could also be quite the hit - you again would have to expand teh story - somehow blood elves get to or someone convinces the blood elves as a whole not to hunt the wretched but help, maybe some sort of more powerful treatment can help pull them back from being that far gone. The state leaves them altered physically perhaps forever or at least many many years before it will heal out.. kind of like blood elf glowy green eyes, meaning it will go eventually but not during the lifetime of Wow 1. This allows Wretched to be a bit more physically distinct to blood elves, like most racial factions are between themselves anyway, and allows you to write them in as a likeable.
it's the story of recovering addicts actually making something of themselves, with all the reckless charm that comes with those types - meaning they'll still dabble a bit, adventure is quite the stimulant anyway from all the adrenaline, which helps with the substance abuse. I would even give them a more rugged and less gay look. I mean the male blood elves are very pristine, the San'layan kinda scary evil even though you have the scary good types. The wretched - and we'll have to change the name, would be the tortured soul type.
It could work, they're there, it would just take a bit more work than the others, but worth it I reckon. Northern Kingdom coudl be quite the interesting mix, undead, vampires, werewolves, and living breathing humans and elves all mixed together, but in this case, they're all on the same side and it's the werewolves that are the enemies. Btw, being on the same side doesn't mean they're al friends.
Last edited by Mace; 2013-10-18 at 08:48 AM.
I've gotta say, I love the angle of San'layan as a vampire like twist, - and i love the idea of the tortured soul type / scary evil Lord mix, . the story could start off with a very cool, likeable blood elf male (not a gay one), who stumbles across the San'layan group - gets turned. Maybe we could start him off as a San'layan hunter, San'layan who were turned, but once Arthas was slain, set free, some returned to blood elf society, Lor'themar and co had no idea hat to do with them, others instead set up their own duchy in Northrend and are now vying for domination. San'layan is an enhanced form, kinda like vampires are, i.e. animations and overall appearance don't change, only say maybe the face. in vampire diary series you get those cracks on the eyes and the fangs, some series they get claws.
Blizzard would have to decide how to visualize them asracial group of blood elves. but it's not a total transformation like Worgen warranting a full new race slot, these are blood elves with a rare undead conditin, different from Darkfallen. Anyway you want o make their story cool, Blood Elves through this blood elf hero finally uncover teh plot of the other San'layan, and this becomes their story, peopel who roll San'layan blood elf are blood elves that are for the blood elf cause, they're a bit nasty and they are power hungry and manipualtive. Their story will follow 2 San'layan blood elf main chars, and one main San'layan arch enemy.
The first main Belf San'layan hates his condition, is looking for a cure, and just wants to get back to normal, hates sucking people for mana. The second pretends and feigns remorse, he is seeking for power and control over the Blood elves to rule - he turns some blood elves San'layan others he seduces, the rest of the blood elf San'layan fall into one of the two camps. Their arch rival is a san'layan Lord or Blood Queen in Northrend that seeks to rule al, she views the San'layan whojined the blood levs as traitors and seeks to exxecute them all, she wants to turn all Elves San'layan and rule all Elves and eventually the world.
The plot will have the blood elves uncover and wage a war with the San'layan blood queen, their best weapons agains them are the paladins, priests and other san'layan.
Love the idea of Wretched following a recovering addict type of people, I think they'd do well as your secret agent type, It could use some of the high elves turned wretched in the quel'ilithien lodge, where a female blood elf, very good character , likeable, comes to their rescue and finds away to get the condition manageable. Getting to that state somehow disables them from being able to use the sunwell or at least it is not sufficient sustenane, she finds a way to teach them some level of control and you get a small company able to get some degree of control back, it diesn'tw work on all, those who can become a part of the blood elf core, but they're kind of dspised, shunned, looked on as lesser, but they are also more driven.
Wretched is a condition youcan make a full recovery from, but it takes over a decade (ensuring at least for the rest of wow we will ahve Wretched. the skin is ohas bluish pallour to it, maybe we use the undead model, maybe we use the blood elf model and give a different phsycil disaprity, ah yes, blue eyes. Or we could use the Night elf model with night elf animations but at blood elf height, blood elf skin tones, and Wretched eyes, blood elf ear angles as well, Wretched would generally have darker hair colours, with some new ones like green, blue and pink, instead of white blond, orange and full on red. - they would have dark blond though, red brown, brown, red black, light brown, pink, and their eyes are blue or pink /purple.
Wretched are loveable rogues, they can be off course any blood elf class, but the faction gels well with the Silvermoon underground. By the time they build the Wretched up, their anything but wretched, ranging from loveable rogues to crime lords, but they are addicts or recovering addicts.. and that's their twist
It still doesn't make sense to have Humans playable even if there were lore created to explain it. There is nothing to satisfy from a game design perspective, and it adds nothing to the Horde's identity when you give them playable humans. Even Blood Elves was questionable, but the design was purely to bring players over to the Horde by introducing a 'pretty' race. Prior to the Blood Elves, the playerbase was heavily skewed towards the Alliance, namely Human and Night Elf players.
What does adding Humans satisfy for the Horde? Relatively little story-wise, and almost none gameplay-wise. There is no reason why this should be done. It would be more interesting to introduce sub-races or new races, as many have said in this very thread.
Maybe not humans, perhaps vrykull? That'd be pretty badass! I mean, the Forsaken already have Valkyries.