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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    What's up with all the Chaos Bolts?

    Lately I've seen destro warlocks using Chaos Bolts on bosses below 20%. At first I thought it was a misclick but he was nuking them in a row. Today another warlock I know asked me which skill I use below 20%. What's up with this? I know CB always crits but it doesn't really make up for the long cast time, imo. Or does it, in any conditions? ._.

  2. #2
    The Patient arioc's Avatar
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    Not that I'm aware of, even on multi target with havoc soulburn is superior because of only consuming 1 charge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sillistrar View Post
    Also, I love your short-temper. Did you know that people like you are the most fun to mess with? Not that I'm doing it. Yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazoric View Post
    Interception...
    Is that a like a charge within a charge? :P

  3. #3
    Shadowburn is always superior. Always cast shadowburn under 20%. Try to stack it with intellect procs, unless the target is low health and will die immediately.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OokingDooker View Post
    Shadowburn is always superior.
    I know, right. Just wondering why are people actually questioning it now. :/ I'll ask from the guy I guess.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    Lately I've seen destro warlocks using Chaos Bolts on bosses below 20%. At first I thought it was a misclick but he was nuking them in a row. Today another warlock I know asked me which skill I use below 20%. What's up with this? I know CB always crits but it doesn't really make up for the long cast time, imo. Or does it, in any conditions? ._.
    Maybe he wanted a Soul Leech shield and/or didn't know that Soul Leech benefits from Shadowburn aswell.
    Or maybe he has a ridiculous amount of haste.

  6. #6
    If you have high haste and/or haste/bloodlust procs then chaos bolt is better
    Last edited by Nirty999; 2013-10-17 at 05:18 PM.

  7. #7
    Surely you mean Chaosbolt.

  8. #8
    Only reason I could fathom for this is maybe with high crit procs not sure if it would work out where chaosbolt would gain more dmg than a shadowburn crit if you were under DS + 4p proc or something.

    iono

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Surely you mean Chaosbolt.
    Yes ... fixed

  10. #10
    Even with skull banner, darksoul, and LMG+lust/warp I doubt CB passes shadowburn....even if it does it wouldn't be by much and it would STILL be inferior if you are using havoc along with the shadowburn/CB.

    Is it possible he was ember capped and started the CB cast before the target went into execute range? That's the only other reasonable explanation I can think of. Its not even like aff where you need a mod to show the HP % the bloody shadowburn icon lights up at 20% or less....

  11. #11
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    Is it possible he was ember capped and started the CB cast before the target went into execute range?
    No, this wasn't the thing. It was on Thok when it had 5-10% or something, I was dead on my alt so I had the time to look at what other people did, and it wasn't just a single chaos bolt, he was just spamming them. Might just be someone who doesn't know what they're doing.
    Oh and I asked the guy who whispered me about chaos bolts, he said he asked it because he's just totally new to destro, not that he would question "the old methods", but he just doesn't know.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    Even with skull banner, darksoul, and LMG+lust/warp I doubt CB passes shadowburn....even if it does it wouldn't be by much and it would STILL be inferior if you are using havoc along with the shadowburn/CB.

    Is it possible he was ember capped and started the CB cast before the target went into execute range? That's the only other reasonable explanation I can think of. Its not even like aff where you need a mod to show the HP % the bloody shadowburn icon lights up at 20% or less....
    The gcd for shadowburn is 1 second right? So if you can get CB's cast time to 1 second or lower, thats the only time I'd imagine it being better than Sb. Unless you have to move, or need to clip that last fraction of a second of an int proc
    Last edited by OokingDooker; 2013-10-17 at 09:24 PM.

  13. #13
    If you have a meta gem proc aligned with an int trinket proc and dark soul, isn't CB better? Depending on luck, shadowburn may not crit at all, and those chaos bolts that you cast 30% faster have not only a guaranteed chance to crit, but also benefit far more from Dark Soul. If I get a meta proc, have DS up+an int trinket proc, there's a high chance I'll dump chaos bolts rather than shadowburn. It's just silly to shadowburn for 700k when you can get 1,6kk or more chaos bolts out of it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinitar View Post
    If you have a meta gem proc aligned with an int trinket proc and dark soul, isn't CB better? Depending on luck, shadowburn may not crit at all, and those chaos bolts that you cast 30% faster have not only a guaranteed chance to crit, but also benefit far more from Dark Soul. If I get a meta proc, have DS up+an int trinket proc, there's a high chance I'll dump chaos bolts rather than shadowburn. It's just silly to shadowburn for 700k when you can get 1,6kk or more chaos bolts out of it.
    Chaos Bolt gets +30% to its crit multiplier from Dark Soul, Shadowburn gets +30% chance to crit. Not gearing for Crit, I sit at about 30% crit rate with raid buffs, plus a significant amount more with trinket procs. You should have well over 50% crit rate during dark soul, which means those 700k Shadowburns will do more damage, on average than a Chaos Bolt, and in less than half the time (1 second GCD versus, say, about 1.8 second cast time).

    Chaos Bolt becomes better DPET than Shadowburn at 103% Haste.
    Chaos Bolt also gets the 20% full benefit from crit banner, whereas Shadowburn only gets your crit rate's worth of benefit. Even so, if you had ZERO percent crit (meaning Shadowburn gets no benefit from crit banner), you'd need 35% raid buffed Haste for Chaos Bolt to beat Shadowburn.

    Basically, use Shadowburn.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoboMog123 View Post
    Chaos Bolt gets +30% to its crit multiplier from Dark Soul, Shadowburn gets +30% chance to crit. Not gearing for Crit, I sit at about 30% crit rate with raid buffs, plus a significant amount more with trinket procs. You should have well over 50% crit rate during dark soul, which means those 700k Shadowburns will do more damage, on average than a Chaos Bolt, and in less than half the time (1 second GCD versus, say, about 1.8 second cast time).

    Chaos Bolt becomes better DPET than Shadowburn at 103% Haste.
    Chaos Bolt also gets the 20% full benefit from crit banner, whereas Shadowburn only gets your crit rate's worth of benefit. Even so, if you had ZERO percent crit (meaning Shadowburn gets no benefit from crit banner), you'd need 35% raid buffed Haste for Chaos Bolt to beat Shadowburn.

    Basically, use Shadowburn.
    This, the numbers speak.

  16. #16
    There is also an another aspect, which wasn't mentioned. If you have 4 embers and have a few proccs up, then you can fire away 4SB in 4 seconds, then you can collect enough embers to cast a few more SBs in the proccwindow. But you can't cast as nearly as many buffed CBs.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sho dar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoboMog123 View Post
    and in less than half the time (1 second GCD versus, say, about 1.8 second cast time).
    This, the numbers speak.
    I'm supposed to trust numbers from someone who thinks 1 is "less than half" of 1.8?

  18. #18
    I know from a functional standpoint the instant, thus mobile, nature of sburn makes it a functional winner. Last two h.siegecrafter kills some bomb is running after someone and the boss needs to die asap so to do both and keep the bomb from hitting the bloke running I'll havoc the bomb and triple sburn the boss. This typically kills the bomb/keeps it from going off killing people in the raid, and gets boss damage off....while I'm running for my life from the umpteen hazards in that fight.

    So basically if you have a legendary meta proc, warp, zerking, high gear haste, crit banner....and can stand still CB might pass sburn on dpet. Though that is only one dimension of the equation. With that high haste you could be generating embers quickly via incinerates or even RoF (at extreme haste). Thus more embers to instantly spend on shadowburn. So when you consider the opportunity cost of generation on top of the monster list of situational criteria CB would need to even catch/pass sburn you are probably just better off using shadowburn and getting more embers generated. This effect is probably more significant the less base haste you have and the more crit you have on your gear natively.

    A similar situation exists in demonology regarding using ToC vs soulfire in meta at SoO gear levels. You can check out Zinn's sheet and/or check out the demo thread but basically its a fast in/fast out (FIFO) resource generation model focusing on dmg:resource as it relates to resource generation not just DPET.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    I think Sparkuggz has come out on his website and said that with pretty much every proc + buff up, Chaos Bolt would probably pass Shadowburn in DPCT sub 20%. But that's talking like 3 stacks of backdraft, bloodlust, meta gem proc, dark soul and some int procs ALL up at the same time. He didn't bother simming it to find out the exact point at which Chaos Bolt bet out Shadowburn, because he didn't feel it was personally worth it, and would use Shadowburn sub 20% all the time anyway. The DPS boost from using a fully buffed Chaos Bolt over a Shadowburn would probably be quite miniscule in the scheme of things.

    Chances are the lock pelting chaos bolts into the boss sub 10% was just bad and didn't know how to play Destro, or was being really lazy and not bothering to DPS efficiently and just clicking random buttons. I know I'm personally a culprit of that kind of shit. If I get really bored in LFR, or am just really tired, I'll just sit there and cast back to back to back incinerates, and not bother with a proper rotation, (generally not even casting ANYTHING else at all) just so that I sit middle-of-the pack in terms of DPS and nobody calls me out. Plus Chaos Bolt has such a long cast time that you can click it, then alt tab for a few seconds, then tab back and fire another one off to tab out again. Done it all too many times in LFR lol.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome darkminaz's Avatar
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    well i sometimes wonder if a 1,7million chaosbolt vs 900k noncrit havoc ..
    With my current mastery>haste>crit affli reforge i get the feeling i would be better with chaosbolt (unless i realy execute)
    but old habbits die hard so i just spam shadowburn whenever the blingbling light goes on (weakaura @20%) and i got procs/to many emebers ^^

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