can i enjoy the game without going for 100% completion?

[Valeron]

Yes, you can enjoy the game without going for 100% map completion.

[c0da]

This literally and logically makes no sense. The game telling you to figure out how to get on top of a mountain makes you not want to figure out how to go on top of a mountain...? I'm guessing you don't like authority figures very much?

To be serious, what you are really saying (whether intentionally or not) is that the game doesn't have prizes waiting for you in every nook and cranny it has to offer. Otherwise, simply having a set of goals for exploration wouldn't deter you from exploring further. It actually serves to do the exact opposite of what you state, which is to get people exploring who normally wouldn't.

This has nothing to do with prizes or rewards, I don't need or want them. My point is a player should explore based on a zone or they see something cool in the distance or they like the zone and want to see what is on the other side. They should not want to explore based on random points in the map. That goes against everything exploration stands for. With random points on the map the game is telling players where to go. The game guides you in every map to places you have to go.

When I played Skyrim I explored the map to find actual content and things to do. Not because I saw a PoI or a Vista on the map that I need to get for Map completion.

You should explore because you want to explore, not because you have to do get some type of map completion points.

[Kelimbror]

My point is a player should explore based on a zone or they see something cool in the distance or they like the zone and want to see what is on the other side.

And they somehow can't do that now? It seems you missed my point. Does having an eating competition ruing your desire to enjoy food? Does having a sewing contest make you want to stop cross stitching? I fail to see how providing objectives should deter anyone from exploring how they see fit.

You do realize the game has non marked things for exploration like jump puzzles, super gathering spots, event spawns, etc? Or should we just forget about them for the sake of making the argument convenient?

They should not want to explore based on random points in the map. That goes against everything exploration stands for. With random points on the map the game is telling players where to go.

Ahem - Explore\ik-ˈsplȯr\: to travel over (new territory) for adventure or discovery

Please tell me how giving you a destination prevents you from traveling over new territory for adventure or discovery. Having a point on a map doesn't tell you what sort of view you will have, what landmark you will be near or on or in, nor what activities will be around you. Hell, having the hearts on the map doesn't tell you wtf is going there. So you have no idea what is happening until you....wait for it...explore that area.

When I played Skyrim I explored the map to find actual content and things to do. Not because I saw a PoI or a Vista on the map that I need to get for Map completion.

Really? The Skyrim I played had plenty of things marked on the map and even conveniently marked them for me while I had a quest. So somehow it's different in Skyrim, but a tragic sin in GW2?

You should explore because you want to explore, not because you have to do get some type of map completion points.

Nothing is preventing anyone from doing that. It's only adding incentive to exploring specific areas.

[Meledelion]

I get where he's coming from but mainly because of my background in the TES series.

I HATE the compas system introduced in oblivion where stables, gates, keeps,... pop up because instead of looking at your map and saying "I'm gonna check out what's north of that town" you just start running towards w/e symbol pops up.
It's no longer exploring since you already know where you're gonna end up.

If it's easier to understand imagine an RTS game with fog of war. Traditional RTS games will have your map blacked out completely so finding where the enemy is becomes a 1/3 chance of picking the right corner. Then there's a 1/X chance that it's the main base. Those things make you want to explore, discover the rest of the map.

Now imagine a similar game but you get a compass instead of a map and on that compass you can see in what direction (n,e,s,w) a base is and what kind of base (economical, military,...) just walking until you reach that base still is "exploring" the exact location but it's vastly different from the first system, I'd personally call it a bastardization/easy-mode.
This makes you want to run to that specific symbol, instead of "defogging" the map.

[zehzao]

Your being really generic about "enjoyment", what makes you think you have to get 100% completion in the first place?

I agree with this.

My enjoyment was to reach 100% but for each their own, you just have to find what you enjoy :P

[Fencers]

Oye, all Karizee was saying in the first place was the that there are aspects of the game which encourage competition and give things which are not cosmetic doo-dads as reward.

I just spoke to that point in the post right above: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22918373

The reply doesn't seem sensible or logical in terms of design or gameplay.

Which you didn't preclude in the first place since you said "a lot of activities".

And I just said in the initial post, "The game" meaning the entirety, is heavily casual play focused.

Choosing to do something "hardcore" doesn't mean it is hardcore or design with that idea in mind. As I said above. Twice.

These are the most important distinctions in video games; design and gameplay.

Guild Wars 2 in all aspects of gameplay, is designed to be a casual play experience. One can pick it up as they please with few limiters or inhibitors to content/activities. Requiring relatively little to few barriers of entry. Thus one can enjoy GW2 as they plase without a lot of fuss or worry.

That is not a hardcore game by design.

A hardcore game by design is like, Path of Exile. Which is designed so that it requires steep time investment, punishes ignorance and inactivity.

[c0da]

Nothing is preventing anyone from doing that. It's only adding incentive to exploring specific areas.

Which was my point from the start, ignore the fluff like Vistas, PoI's and Map completion, they are designed to literally waste your time. You can enjoy the game by completely ignoring them and doing actual content. Those things have nothing to do with exploration.

- - - Updated - - -

Guild Wars 2 in all aspects of gameplay, is designed to be a casual play experience. One can pick it up as they please with few limiters or inhibitors to content/activities. Requiring relatively little to few barriers of entry. Thus one can enjoy GW2 as they plase without a lot of fuss or worry.

That is not a hardcore game by design.

A hardcore game by design is like, Path of Exile. Which is designed so that it requires steep time investment, punishes ignorance and inactivity.

I completely agree, GW2 was also supposed to be an MMO that "people that don't like MMOs enjoy" so it was designed to be super casual. My casual friends thought it was too casual. Which is why in my opinion they are going to add things like ascended gear.

[lawow74]

I completely agree, GW2 was also supposed to be an MMO that "people that don't like MMOs enjoy" so it was designed to be super casual. My casual friends thought it was too casual. Which is why in my opinion they are going to add things like ascended gear.

I just hope it doesn't lead to the introduction of more levels, with Ascended-Plus gear. Then more levels, with Super-Ascended gear. Then more levels, with Super-Ascended-Plus gear. Then...you get my drift. There are plenty of treadmill games already. Do we REALLY need another one?

[arukas]

Apart from a Legendary weapon, 100% isn't any limitation at all. Might be useful for some guild missions and other stuff but that basicly it.

I for instance have 6 charaters at max level and a grand total of 52% world completion

[Kelimbror]

Which was my point from the start

Hrm...could have fooled me.

ignore the fluff like Vistas, PoI's and Map completion, they are designed to literally waste your time.

This just in, having goals are now just a waste of time. Also, everything in a video game is a 'waste of time'. Still not making any sense. Sounds more like being angry just to be angry. But hey, we've all done it, it's your right to feel that way.

I just don't see how having objectives is somehow ruining your fun. If you want to explore, just go do it. No sense complaining that other people get something from guided exploration. I mean everyone in here, including me, is telling the OP how you can effectively ignore completion unless you specifically want a legendary and have a great time.

No point complaining about extra features. Are you also upset that there are quests in other games and hearts/dynamic events in GW2? It's the same concept. Sure you can run around killing anything you want without them, but you get rewards from doing them. How is that somehow different?

[Meledelion]

snip

Read what I wrote, it's not about not being able to do it anymore or not wanting to do it anymore, it's simply that doing it isn't as rewarding as in a "traditional" design.

Running towards a sign that says "great viewing point" isn't the same as hiking up a hill walking past a bush and then just finding one...

[Kelimbror]

Read what I wrote, it's not about not being able to do it anymore or not wanting to do it anymore, it's simply that doing it isn't as rewarding as in a "traditional" design.

Running towards a sign that says "great viewing point" isn't the same as hiking up a hill walking past a bush and then just finding one...

I read what you wrote. It doesn't make a difference that what he's saying, what the other person said, and what you said is all irrelevant because you can still do what you are saying.

There are still fancy caves, hidden groves, cabbage patches, jumping puzzles, you name it that are not labeled on your map. There is no lack of one thing because something else exists.

So unless the argument is that having some viewspots ruins your personal fun, which is incredibly selfish and illogical, then there is no argument, and I wonder why people keep going on about it.

[Meledelion]

Many people dislike EZ-mode, I'm one of those and I'm guessing the other person is too. Saying "you can still do it" doesn't help since I think it's waaaaaaaay too easy/mind-numbing boring.

[Kelimbror]

Many people dislike EZ-mode, I'm one of those and I'm guessing the other person is too. Saying "you can still do it" doesn't help since I think it's waaaaaaaay too easy/mind-numbing boring.

Well here's the thing...it's an added objective. It doesn't have any actual impact on your ability to explore other things. I can understand if you are specifically saying that you would prefer if map completion had exploration related items, but didn't have them posted on the map. That's a valid desire for you personally. It wouldn't be a better game design, since this game in each design decision is about casual play and accessibility, but it would be understandable for you to want that different design. I would not argue with that at all.

If that's what they are trying to say, ok...I just don't see that at all in any of the respones until you just said it now.

It's just not valid for someone to say 'I can't do x thing' or 'it makes x thing less fun' because of this. It's really just excuses at that point. Kinda like someone claiming GW2 doesn't have endgame or that letting people raid in LFR somehow ruins Heroic progression raiding. Just another unsubstantial claim to harp on for the sake of complaining or being mad that other people have their own fun.

[Meledelion]

Well here's the thing...it's an added objective.

That's the thing, it's not an added objective, it's been there all along but they just decided to mark it with a big symbol taking the "challenge" away.

[Kelimbror]

That's the thing, it's not an added objective, it's been there all along but they just decided to mark it with a big symbol taking the "challenge" away.

I offered a fairly reasonable olive branch, but ok...let's look at how much sense this doesn't make.

Game without vistas: has no objectives for exploration, you just get to do it.

Game with vistas: vista points added as a part of map completion, which is both a method of obtaining xp, gear, and part of requirements for a legendary. That's what added content looks like. Interesting fact: you still get to randomly explore all the other 99.9% of the game.

Any further discussion is merely arguing semantics.

[Meledelion]

That's not more content, that's more rewards...

[rhandric]

The point is, Mele, just because they marked some interesting points on the map doesn't mean there aren't other, unmarked, interesting points on the map left up to the players to find.

[Meledelion]

No that's not the point rhandric

This literally and logically makes no sense. The game telling you to figure out how to get on top of a mountain makes you not want to figure out how to go on top of a mountain...?

This was what was being discussed yet what you say, is vastly different. You're saying "yes I understand that the marked points no longer interest you" which is vastly different, its' close to the opposite.

[Kelimbror]

The point is, Mele, just because they marked some interesting points on the map doesn't mean there aren't other, unmarked, interesting points on the map left up to the players to find.

Exactly. It seems people would rather argue semantics or blame the game for their inability to take action on their own. I even understand that someone may not enjoy it since those specific points are attached to a reward system, but it's completely not true to assert it does something beyond that.

Exploration is still wholly intact in the same ways people are claiming it isn't. It's actually a more valid complaint to talk about the invisble walls (which there aren't many) in GW2 than to say that vistas and exploration are mutually exclusive.