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  1. #1
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Lightbulb [Frost] Haste Caps & You - Quick Guide

    Please go here for discussion and updates. This thread is old.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ost-(Advanced)
    Last edited by Akraen; 2013-10-22 at 02:37 PM. Reason: Clarifying a few misunderstandings.

  2. #2
    Just a formatiing problem I noticed, the yellow text under Icy Veins section is near impossible to read.

  3. #3
    High Overlord Bopcommander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proakryt View Post
    Just a formatiing problem I noticed, the yellow text under Icy Veins section is near impossible to read.
    You could also take your cursor and high-light it and its easy to read.

    Ak - Good info here. One of my mages is frost and dislikes fire to an extreme and he puts out better numbers as frost. I'll have him take a look at this. Though he puts out great numbers, in my opinion, in his gear, maybe a little tweak he can put out even more and I know he won't mind. I believe he went the route I went when I was frost early in 5.2. Haste "cap" (under veins and lust/meta), crit cap, and the rest into mastery.

    Thanks again.

  4. #4
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback - I adjusted the colors a bit. IPS displays make you forget how bad other monitors are.

    Also for more information:

    Yes this is a chief reason why NT remains bomb of choice, it's because of the gear pathing and reaching ever more types of plateaus. From 11128 haste to 15821 haste you gain only +1 tick of Living Bomb whereas you gain +4 ticks of Nether Tempest!

    At 20482 up through 25125 haste rating Living Bomb takes over Nether Tempest for tick stacking (262.54% haste) then NT takes back over at 25206 haste rating until some number around 40k which I'm not going to bother calculate.

    Also I figure I'll add:

    If you're not interested in removing the icy veins glyph then Living Bomb will be better for tick stacking up to 16,327 haste which should be doable with the cloaks around 530 ilvl and you can go back to using NT.

  5. #5
    Per Ask Mr. Robot: Optimized for haste (but w/Pandaren’s Step)
    Spell Haste: 48.64% * 425 = 20,672 Haste Rating when raid buffed.
    Closest break is 16,946 under Heroism.
    16,946 / 425 = 39.87 % haste w/raid buffs.

    Does this mean that I should drop my haste back to 39.87% and gem/enchant mastery from now on?

    These numbers seem too high for my iLvl (518). I’m not home now so I can’t get the values from game

  6. #6
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyz View Post
    Per Ask Mr. Robot: Optimized for haste (but w/Pandaren’s Step)
    Spell Haste: 48.64% * 425 = 20,672 Haste Rating when raid buffed.
    Closest break is 16,946 under Heroism.
    16,946 / 425 = 39.87 % haste w/raid buffs.

    Does this mean that I should drop my haste back to 39.87% and gem/enchant mastery from now on?

    These numbers seem too high for my iLvl (518). I’m not home now so I can’t get the values from game
    Can you link your armory please? I'm not sure on your conversions. If you are at 48.64% then that means you're just below the 13053 plateau, but since you can't reach it then yes, you would stop at 12,684 and maximize intellect > mastery > haste.

    Also never gem for mastery, intellect is always better than mastery. Just replace intellect with haste only when you're going for another cap.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Can you link your armory please? I'm not sure on your conversions. If you are at 48.64% then that means you're just below the 13053 plateau, but since you can't reach it then yes, you would stop at 12,684 and maximize intellect > mastery > haste.

    Also never gem for mastery, intellect is always better than mastery. Just replace intellect with haste only when you're going for another cap.
    Yeah, I realized the issue w/gemming a min ago. I wrote it differently than I meant it. I'd gem Int and reforge to mastery.

    I'm working with an AMR "Best in Bags" set right now that doesn't display on my armory page and is based off of stat weights I entered myself. I just tried to share this but apparently the BiB option can't be linked to so here's a JPG:


  8. #8
    I recently discovered a ~7.5% dps gain by removing the Glyph of Icy Veins to maximize NT ticks.
    Relative to what? A dummy, simc, last weeks raid?

    And does gaining that many more ticks once and maybe twice in a fight really outweigh the extreme amounts of wasted haste from casting all other spells?

    I'm curious to actually try this, though I still highly doubt it will provide as substantial results as you claim. Last night on Heroic Lei Shen progression I ran with LB and glyphed IV. On Sunday, I'll switch to your setup and see if it's really worth it. No upgrades between last night and Sunday so it should provide some semi-reliable results.

  9. #9
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Three 10 minute tests on single target dummy and 3 target dummy cluster.

  10. #10
    I don't really play frost at all so pardon if I sound stupid now...

    You mention dont go for crit at all, is this because you will shatter cap just from natural crit on items anyway. Or is mastery just flat out better?

  11. #11
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Mastery just becomes better because it is active on procs and we're reaching absurd amounts of them.

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    good. I have to yry it and drop Frost bomb.
    Yes, I'm the only and last made to use it in PVE !!!!

    I'm start to think that removing IV could be a good option. For crit, I think the idea can be resumed like this :
    If Cha'ye, keep it at 25% raid buff. So it will proc a lot (same uptime than Tempus Repit).
    If Breath, forget the crit.

    I'm thinking of 2 things :
    -- comparing (simc) your build (NT + IV + Breath + haste/mastery/no crit) and my build (FB + gIV + Cha'Ye + haste~mastery/crit cap).
    -- calculating your number for goblin.

    I will do it this weekend.
    The answers is 42
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  13. #13
    my simcraft shows that my crit scaling is higher than my mastery scaling and yet you say that we should never go for crit, could you please explain why .
    greetings maiku.
    Last edited by maiku77; 2013-05-25 at 12:07 PM.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maiku77 View Post
    is the t15 4p mandatory for this haste cap table ?
    i seem to get only 15 ticks at 6343 haste (with haste buff and armor).
    also my simcraft shows that my crit scaling is higher than my mastery scaling and yet you say that we should never go for crit, could you please explain why .
    greetings maiku.
    more IL is always good because IL do more damage than FB. After the gain isn't enormous.
    The answers is 42
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by maiku77 View Post
    my simcraft shows that my crit scaling is higher than my mastery scaling and yet you say that we should never go for crit, could you please explain why .
    greetings maiku.
    I am seeing the same thing with Simcraft and similar results in line with Akren's recommendations to take Mastery over crit...my DPS up significantly and continues to scale upwards by replacing Crit with Mastery. Simcraft I guess is "broken"....or the game is broken...not sure with but it is not reflecting the "reality" of the game in my opinion with respect to frost mages. That being said it's still interesting and a useful tool IMHO.

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bedacles View Post
    I am seeing the same thing with Simcraft and similar results in line with Akren's recommendations to take Mastery over crit...my DPS up significantly and continues to scale upwards by replacing Crit with Mastery. Simcraft I guess is "broken"....or the game is broken...not sure with but it is not reflecting the "reality" of the game in my opinion with respect to frost mages. That being said it's still interesting and a useful tool IMHO.
    First, I think there's a big difference between 25k simulation and a 10 minute boss.
    Secondly, the little change to water elemental make Mastery way better than Crit and I think SimC haven't change it actually.
    The answers is 42
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  17. #17
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I don't offer ideas to the community unless I'm confident in the results that they provide.

    I can't explain the relationship between haste and mastery with numbers, but I can say for sure that nothing I've done yet this expansion has lined up with simcraft or the "numbers" calculated by people in this community. I recommend more intuitive play from everyone, let the results inspire the theorycraft.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 02:50 PM ----------

    FYI - so this thread doesn't degrade into an argument... whether or not LB is better at any interval this information holds true for NT. I'll provide a supplemental guide for LB soon I guess, unless I can convince devs to nerf it first :P

  18. #18
    I would be interested to see that Akraen. I have been using NT for the past month or so and have grown to love it. After 5.3 hit i decided to try out LB here and there. I honestly can't say which I like better as there are benefits to both bombs depending on each situation. I will admit I hate switching bombs and per fight so I might just stick with NT full time.

    The only thing I liked about LB is the "easier" refresh and less chance of missing out on BF-FFB procs. But I honestly haven't compared the two against each other. I would be interested to see how much LB was buffed vs NT in single target situations (In practice vs theorycrafting).

    Keep up the good work though! I love all this information!

  19. #19
    I am at an in-between spot in my max haste capability where I can get the 6th tick of LB and the 17th of NT (without meta proc or CDs and IV glyhed)....and it seems LB is noticeably better for me at this point on ST....I think that's expected until I can get to 12684 do you agree? On cleaveish fights I imagine NT would be a bit better even now.

    Akraen let me say again thanks for this quick guide...and everyone for the advice/opinions as well.

  20. #20
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    NT will do more cleave than LB will explode (which seems odd, but it is true).

    I think LB is better for you in most situations though until you reach 12684. My argument in this post fights against the old "12684 is where you stop" argument because I'm enjoying playing the interval soft-plateaus of maximizing ticks during all permutations of burst haste.

    NT vs. LB only becomes tricky at high levels of haste.

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