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  1. #1

    My guilds proposing a new loot distribution system that's causing alot of controversy

    For clarification, I'm an officer, and I personally agree very much so with this system, but I'm weary of the fact that some other raiders think they're being cheated.

    _________________

    Essentially, loot goes to whomever considers the item the largest upgrade (All player gear is treated as being not upgraded yet).

    Players who have to forfeit the loot (due to it not being as much an upgrade) receive priority rating equal to half (rounded down) the ilvl difference between their own gear (treated as non upgraded) and the piece that was given to a different player.

    Players can spend priority rating to artificially increase the ilvl gap between their current gear and dropped loot to attain gear.

    Example:

    Boss 1:
    Player 1 has an ilvl 528 0/2 Sword, Player 2 has a 510 2/2 (Treated as 502). A 553 weapon drops and is given to Player 2. Player 1 receives 12 priority rating. ( (553-528) / 2 = 12.5)

    Boss 2:
    Player 1 has an ilvl 540 helm, Player 2 has a 528 helm. A 553 helm drops and is given to Player 2. Player 1 gains 6 priority rating for a total of 18

    Boss 3:
    Player 1 has an ilvl 540 chest, Player 2 has a 528 chest. A 559 warforged chest drops. Whilst Player 2 has a 31 ilvl difference and Player 1 has a 19 ilvl difference, Player 1 spends 13 of his 18 rating to artifically attain a 32 ilvl difference.

    Player 1 receives the warforged chest and now sits at 5 priority rating.

    __________________

    This system was chosen for two reasons:

    * Making sure progression remains the largest priority for the guild by ensuring upgrades make the largest possible difference
    * The Priority Rating system helps counteract under geared/newer players getting ALL the loot, this rewards better players by still giving them a chance to attain loot

    The biggest complaints here are:

    * Better players are being rewarded the least
    * BiS gear is being ignored entirely

    My GM feels that prioritising better players to get gear means that the drops are making smaller differences thus slowing down progression. BiS is being ignored because we plan on doing Heroic content eventually which means BiS normal gear will just be upgraded anyway.

    I'd like to know everyone's opinion here. We're at the point where we're considering telling those players to just leave if they dislike it. I feel players should put progression above their own gear, but I dont want to tell people this if the consensus is that its wrong.

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    Gear is a large factor but this... seems like too much of a headache. I have a guild raid group that just uses their heads, we each inspect and trade loot around if we feel we've got enough to get by and the upgrade is minute compared to someone else. If everyone is fairly even, then the lucky upgrade is simply a roll away. No DKP, no arguing, no mess. Not in the entire time I've raided with my guild. (years)

    If you believe gear is such a problem as to go through something like this, then maybe there's something more fundamentally flawed with the characters in your group.

    I mean I'd be OKAY with a system like this...really I would. But if some of your raiders are feeling cheated by it, maybe it's best to ask them why that is. Not us.
    I would never dare take gear that a fresh recruit needs to be on par with me. Gear is a means to an end for all of us, if someone is weaker than the rest, then they're a burden on all of us.

    Gear for the raid that is used is good gear. Always.

    Anyone more obsessed with their characters own performance, rather than the whole raid, needs an attitude adjustment.
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  3. #3
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Your raid team needs to learn to share.
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  4. #4
    Meh, we just keep it on group loot and whoever wants a specific item, they will sort it out with each other. Such as last week, Blackfuse dropped a token and a trinket that me and someone else wanted, they needed the token more than I did and I needed the trinket more than they did so I just passed the token and took the trinket. Idk about 25 mans but with 10 mans it's really easy to manage loot, we have no need for a loot system or anything.

    As long as no one in your raid is greedy and loot hungry, and of course if everyone trust one another you won't have a need for a loot system. Just keep it on group loot and they will work it out themselves.
    Last edited by Orcindauh; 2013-10-17 at 10:45 PM.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk Lemposs's Avatar
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    Wow, I just make my subjects fight to the death for loot, only to masterloot it for myself

    OT I think it is overcomplicated, I usually just decide based on iLvl and/or boost to dps or healing.

  6. #6
    The problem I can see is that ilevel difference alone is a poor representation of what kind of an upgrade it is. Upgrading your neck 30 item levels is likely going to be a smaller increase in power than upgrading your weapon / trinket by just 8 or so. So the "fairness" takes a hit there. And it does sound too complicated... Why not just use epgp or something?

  7. #7
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Gear should be for the team not for the player. So what you are doing is a yes/no. Gear should be given out to what spec/class would get the most out of it to help the raid. But at the same time it shouldn't be used to help "bad" players get better. The bad players should not even be in your team unless you are willing to let them hold you back. So your team should only consistent of good players so that giving the bad players loot shouldn't be an issue because there should be any.

    I was a hardcore raider years and even a gm for a few of them. I never had the problem in giving out loot to bad players because they never passed there trial. Before someone passed there trial they were told loot is for the team not for personal use. We never had loot drama because of this.
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  8. #8
    The Patient
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    I'd personally be ok with a loot system like this, but yea... if you are raiding 10man there isn't really a need for a loot system. I used epgp in my 10 man raiding guild just because we had a very rotation roster of people and very few raiders who were there every single raid. But if you have a set roster of 10 people just put it on group loot, or master looter and let folks work it out. My current guild has no issues generally, if someone has already won a piece they'll generally pass on the next, or trade loots if one piece is a huge upgrade for them (BIS or something). If your raiders are THAT loot whorish that they can't work shit out between each other than I dunno, that is a bigger problem then w/e system you go with >.<

  9. #9
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Your raid team needs to learn to share.
    They don't need to learn you just force them to lol
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Your raid team needs to learn to share.
    This.


    We just /roll on gear, and then if the winner notices it helps someone out more they'll usually just pass it along. In fact we have 3 shamans in our group, Shaman tier token dropped. One of the shamans won it, then promptly checked to see if it made a 2/4 set bonus for someone else, it did, and he gave it to that person. It isn't really hard if your group is actually mature. I feel like only a bunch of kids would care enough about loot to make this a problem.

    As for your actual system, it sounds complicated and I wouldn't want any part of it. Who keeps track of how many ilvl points people have? One of the officers or each player? If an item drops and it's a 35 ilvl upgrade for person A and a 15 ilvl upgrade for person B, can person A just pass it to person B and get extra points that they can then use on another piece? That basically just turns it into a convoluted DKP system.

    I see little to no benefit of doing things this way at all.

  11. #11
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    This.


    We just /roll on gear, and then if the winner notices it helps someone out more they'll usually just pass it along. In fact we have 3 shamans in our group, Shaman tier token dropped. One of the shamans won it, then promptly checked to see if it made a 2/4 set bonus for someone else, it did, and he gave it to that person. It isn't really hard if your group is actually mature. I feel like only a bunch of kids would care enough about loot to make this a problem.

    As for your actual system, it sounds complicated and I wouldn't want any part of it. Who keeps track of how many ilvl points people have? One of the officers or each player? If an item drops and it's a 35 ilvl upgrade for person A and a 15 ilvl upgrade for person B, can person A just pass it to person B and get extra points that they can then use on another piece? That basically just turns it into a convoluted DKP system.

    I see little to no benefit of doing things this way at all.
    I had the same issue with epgp, if someone won an item and lost gp, and then decided to give the item to someone who needed it more, I had to go in, revert the gp loss on the person who won, add a gp loss to the person who gained the item, and keep track the whole raid and the rest of the week of who was earning what for ep (we gave ep for contributions to the bank that helped the raid, like flasks, feasts and the like as well as points earned from boss kills etc). It was complicated and made wow feel like a job. At least i had an addon to help, this you'd be doing by hand via spreadsheet or counting on your guildies to keep track and not lie or fuck up. And if you are the one in charge of keeping track, you can't ever miss a raid unless you have a secondary that can access the same info you do and knows how to update it.

  12. #12
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    I mean, it's a good system in theory because that is the most beneficial loot distribution for progression, but it seems unnecessarily complicated.

    Is it too much to ask that raid members just pass on stuff that is a massive upgrade to their peer while only a minor upgrade to them? I mean, being cooperative benefits the whole raid and it certainly makes it more fun when everyone is looking out for each other. I mean, of course people get disappointed if they really want that trinket, but everyone with any sense knows it's better for the group as a whole if it goes to the guy who is still stuck with the last-tier's-LFR trinket because he's been unlucky with drops than the guy who has last-tier's-heroic version.

    We just need/greed anything and ask people not to be dicks. They hand off sidegrades and counsel among each other "Hey, is that any good for you, [mage]? It's only a minor upgrade for me. Oh it is? Here, take it." I guess that's less feasible in a 25man when you have a lot of raid members and not everyone will have a friendly relationship with each other, but if your raid isn't comprised of assholes it should work in 10man. What size is your raid?
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  13. #13
    Priority rating spoils a lot of the idea.
    Loot is rolled for by players who need it, unless players really really need it. (471 weapon owner has prio on a 528 wep for example. yes one of our healers wasn't very lucky on weapon drops)

    Loot is for raiding; not for stealing from others by abusing a faulty loot system your GM made up. (which in this case is: by always being there every raid, preventing any new raider frm getting loot you need)

  14. #14
    Just seems unnecessarily complicated to me. You could achieve the same goals without it being so complicated. I guess that would require your raiders to care more about progression and killing bosses in a timely manner than getting their BIS as soon as possible though. You can't force someone who cares about gear more than progression to suddenly start caring about progression more, they have to just do it on their own. It doesn't matter what system you use or how it is justified if they don't buy in to what your guild as a whole is trying to do.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Marsc92 View Post
    Essentially, loot goes to whomever considers the item the largest upgrade (All player gear is treated as being not upgraded yet).
    You're basically saying to your guildmates: "If you want more loot in NM, don't run LFR/Flex at all."
    We thought of using this kind of system during ToT, but that appeared like a huge flaw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marsc92 View Post
    This system was chosen for two reasons:

    * Making sure progression remains the largest priority for the guild by ensuring upgrades make the largest possible difference
    * The Priority Rating system helps counteract under geared/newer players getting ALL the loot, this rewards better players by still giving them a chance to attain loot

    The biggest complaints here are:

    * Better players are being rewarded the least
    * BiS gear is being ignored entirely

    My GM feels that prioritising better players to get gear means that the drops are making smaller differences thus slowing down progression. BiS is being ignored because we plan on doing Heroic content eventually which means BiS normal gear will just be upgraded anyway.
    I have already seen a lot of debate about "which is the most efficient way to gear a raid" and I'm not convinced at all that giving loot to the people who are the less geared is the right way to do, not convinced at all.

    Basically, if there was a function from ilvl to actual dps, it would probably look like an exponent or at least a power function, meaning that even if it's a bigger upgrade in ilvl for the less geared, it may be a bigger dps upgrade for the other player.

    Also, to answer at such questions you'd have to consider the problem of tier tokens and roles. Usually, vhl guild gear their dps first because of enrage timer, for instance. For an average guild, the answer may not be that easy, but treating everyone the same is probably far from optimal.
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-10-17 at 11:17 PM.
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  16. #16
    While a loot system is kind of necessary in 25 man, it isn't so much in 10 man. And if you are tracking 25 ppls ilvl points it must take FOREVER to clear bosses. Well I guess not forever if 1 person is tracking everything while everyone clears trash.

    That being said, there is no 100% perfect system. All sorts of DKP systems are out there, but they all have flaws. Either those who contribute the most and are on the most feel cheated by gear going to someone whose in the raid for the first time, or the new members of the team feel they have no chance of ever winning when they have 45 dkp and the other veterans have 45798 dkp. Loot counsel is always accused of playing favorites.

    If you have a 10 man, then just go to /roll system and trust the group to pass if someone else needs AND DESERVES it. If you have a 25 man, IMO I would ere in favor of those who have shown the loyalty to the guild and raid team. Giving a BIS sword to the new guy in the raid, only to see him gquit the next day, disheartens everyone.

  17. #17
    Wow, that's a bit too complicated in my humble opinion. I'm master looter for my raid team and am often approached by guests to explain the system in more detail. I may actually use THIS system as a "better than that" scenario. XD

    In any case, I suggest using something simpler, maybe suicide kings or EPGP. We use suicide kings and it helps to equalize the gear going out more than rolls, but still less so than something this micro-managey. True, you may not be able to control each and every item slot, but the loot will be more evenly distributed. You won't be able to completely control how much of an upgrade will be for someone. You may get a situation where someone wins something that is literally only a few points higher. But they'll get suicided and won't win anything else before their competition gets to. Even if something does end up dropping for them that no one else needs they'll just stay at the bottom. The only downside to the system is that when a PuG who will literally never come back wins something you've lost an item that could have contributed to team progression. But each loot system has a few negatives...

  18. #18
    Brewmaster durrtygoodz's Avatar
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    Why do people still bother with complicated systems? I read your post 3 times and I ain't got a fucking clue how it works still. Need/greed works fine for 10man. Loot council if your officers are sensible. But the absolute best way is to have mature raiders than can sort loot out themselves and not be a dick.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The huge problem with your system is that you do not prioritise getting 4 sets player by player, anyone could get it. You could have 4 vanquishers with 3 pieces of tier then a shitty geared mage for example with no tier gets Tier gloves that the other 3 needed for set. Also it's usually far better to gear dps, especially in 10m, but healers could be higher prio on the dps/healer shared gear.

    You completely ignore stats too. Like if I was in your guild, if a crit/haste neck 553 dropped, I would be last prio cuz I have a 553, but my one is mastery/spirit and therefore I really want to ditch it asap. A guy with crit has his worst stat could win since it's an ilvl upgrade.

    So many flaws really, I hope you do decide to kick the members who disagree and see how much of a raid team you're left with lol.

  19. #19
    For us, the people who think they need it the most get the item. If they both think they need it bad, they /roll for it, no discussion here. If one would like it, and the other one says "uh, only 13 ilvls" or "better stats on another item", they just give it away. That works just fine for anything but trinkets and weapons, where some players' ability to play well can break. But then the other people will pass anyway. Our paladin gave PBoI to me before it even dropped, since I'm Disc.

    I'm running around with a 530 spirit/mastery helmet now, our mage has a 553 mastery/crit helmet. If that one was to drop on heroic, he'd either just give it to me right away or otherwise we'd roll for it. Additionally, we could determine who it's BiS for, and we'd probably think it's more useful for me as Disc than him as Frost. Otherwise, /roll. It's that easy, takes just half a minute.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua View Post
    Gear is a large factor but this... seems like too much of a headache. I have a guild raid group that just uses their heads, we each inspect and trade loot around if we feel we've got enough to get by and the upgrade is minute compared to someone else. If everyone is fairly even, then the lucky upgrade is simply a roll away. No DKP, no arguing, no mess.
    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    But the absolute best way is to have mature raiders than can sort loot out themselves and not be a dick.
    If you're in a 10 man, there should be no reason for a complicated loot system. DKP,EPGP, even loot council isn't really needed in 10mans.


    For us; we kill the boss and move on to trash. Everyone can see the loot since its left on need/greed. People who 'need' a piece of gear talk it out, and agree on who should get it. Sometimes is based on "I got something, so yes you can have this", or "this is BiS for me, what about you?"

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