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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebmyers View Post
    I don't see the problem in that? If someone feels they should be more progressed why force them to pay money just to join another group when they can do it for free?
    What happens when guilds fall apart?

    Some of the players move on to other guilds and some of the players quit. I've seen this in every recent guild I've been in -- the moment the guild falls apart, some of those players never log on again.

    That's bad for the game.

    This might be a surprise for you, but giving the player everything they want isn't good for the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaulty View Post
    With that logic then Realm Pugging should be killing guilds. Why form a guild when you can just PUG. ermahgerd.
    Because most pugs are either less progressed alt-runs or less progressed non-guild runs and they always have random players. Guilds, on the other hand, generally have a consistent roster and a consistent rate of progression. Why would you join a pug run with no guarantees of progression when you could stick with your guild and be guaranteed to kill at least as many bosses as last week?
    ermahgerd

    None of this should be difficult to figure out for yourselves if you'd just sit there and actually think about it for a moment.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    What happens when guilds fall apart?

    Some of the players move on to other guilds and some of the players quit. I've seen this in every recent guild I've been in -- the moment the guild falls apart, some of those players never log on again.

    That's bad for the game.

    This might be a surprise for you, but giving the player everything they want isn't good for the game.

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    Because most pugs are either less progressed alt-runs or less progressed non-guild runs. Why would you join a pug run with no guarantees of progression when you could stick with your guild and be guaranteed to kill at least as many bosses as last week?
    ermahgerd

    None of this should be difficult to figure out for yourselves if you'd just sit there and actually think about it for a moment.

    EXACTLY. Less progreseed alt-runs and less porgress non-guild runs.

    Thank you for saying what I'm trying to get across. People will not leave guilds because they can just pug. It's pugging no matter what if Cross realm is enabled or not. It's like a giant trade chat.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Defaulty View Post
    EXACTLY. Less progreseed alt-runs and less porgress non-guild runs.

    Thank you for saying what I'm trying to get across. People will not leave guilds because they can just pug. It's pugging no matter what if Cross realm is enabled or not. It's like a giant trade chat.
    *sigh* You neglect to consider that allowing cross-realm raiding of current content would CHANGE THE DYNAMIC! The way it works NOW is not the way it will work if this CHANGES. Do you not understand this?

    Right now, if a 10man guild has a player not show up, they pick up someone from trade chat and that's that. If they allowed all content to be cross-realm raided, all of the sudden you have guilds on all servers doing this on public avenues like Openraid and, all of the sudden, dudes from your guild or my guild or any other guild are now finding raids before their guild's raid even starts. This trickles down and down until you have people from less progressed guilds trying to pug people that aren't interested in their less progressed raids.

    This isn't hard to understand.

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    I'm going to make this really simple: Blizzard believes that allowing cross-realm raiding of current content would damage the guild dynamic. Blizzard tends to know more about the effects that changes like this would have on the game, so I'm going to believe that they'd be right. You may think that this kind of change would be perfectly fine and wouldn't have any negative repercussions, but Blizzard disagrees and that's that. A little critical thinking would probably lead most of you to the same conclusion.

    They've already explained this to us via official avenues. Can we at least wait until the next expansion before we start repeating questions that Blizzard has already answered?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    *sigh* You neglect to consider that allowing cross-realm raiding of current content would CHANGE THE DYNAMIC! The way it works NOW is not the way it will work if this CHANGES. Do you not understand this?

    Right now, if a 10man guild has a player not show up, they pick up someone from trade chat and that's that. If they allowed all content to be cross-realm raided, all of the sudden you have guilds on all servers doing this on public avenues like Openraid and, all of the sudden, dudes from your guild or my guild or any other guild are now finding raids before their guild's raid even starts. This trickles down and down until you have people from less progressed guilds trying to pug people that aren't interested in their less progressed raids.

    This isn't hard to understand.

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    I'm going to make this really simple: Blizzard believes that allowing cross-realm raiding of current content would damage the guild dynamic. Blizzard tends to know more about the effects that changes like this would have on the game, so I'm going to believe that they'd be right. You may think that this kind of change would be perfectly fine and wouldn't have any negative repercussions, but Blizzard disagrees and that's that. A little critical thinking would probably lead most of you to the same conclusion.

    They've already explained this to us via official avenues. Can we at least wait until the next expansion before we start repeating questions that Blizzard has already answered?
    Please show sources to your blizzard claims.

    And if you have players leaving because they are pugging then find someone new. People will still want to be in an organized group to progress like you said earlier for realm Pugging. It's exactly the same. Pugging is pugging. You want quality players every week to show up. It's not heroic content, it's normal. Heroic should always remain on Realm/Servers only due to Realm First prestige.

  5. #25
    I'd also like to mention that I'm not trying to be rude here. It just gets frustrating when this community keeps asking for more and more or more, or they ask for things that they've already asked for me before, and they ask why? why not? why why why? And then they get answers and they say, "no, that's not how it would work." And they twist your words and say, "see, that's what I said!"

    We've been given perfectly logical explanations for why cross-realm raiding of current content isn't a thing. It's not hard to connect the dots and see why Blizzard is coming to this conclusion, but so many people remain willfully ignorant and continue to ask why. It's just... frustrating!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaulty View Post
    Please show sources to your blizzard claims.

    And if you have players leaving because they are pugging then find someone new. People will still want to be in an organized group to progress like you said earlier for realm Pugging. It's exactly the same. Pugging is pugging. You want quality players every week to show up. It's not heroic content, it's normal. Heroic should always remain on Realm/Servers only due to Realm First prestige.
    You're more than welcome to google it yourself.

    The only thing I could find is this:
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...95060168843266.
    It's not the blue post I'm referring to, but it clearly shows that they're concerned with how it would affect guilds.

    Now feel free to continue discussing this, but the question has already been answered. No more reason for me to continue posting =/

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    I'd also like to mention that I'm not trying to be rude here. It just gets frustrating when this community keeps asking for more and more or more, or they ask for things that they've already asked for me before, and they ask why? why not? why why why? And then they get answers and they say, "no, that's not how it would work." And they twist your words and say, "see, that's what I said!"

    We've been given perfectly logical explanations for why cross-realm raiding of current content isn't a thing. It's not hard to connect the dots and see why Blizzard is coming to this conclusion, but so many people remain willfully ignorant and continue to ask why. It's just... frustrating!

    - - - Updated - - -

    You're more than welcome to google it yourself.

    The only thing I could find is this https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...95060168843266. It's not the blue post I'm referring to, but it clearly shows that they're concerned with how it would affect guilds.
    Thank you for the source. "It's been obvious technique to support your claims forever in any writing." -Albert Einstein.. look it up yoruself on google.

    It's a question of debate, not you slamming your opinion in everyone's face. You don't have statistics because it hasn't been done. So from there we talk about what we "think" may happen. From what you have said and what I have said about current realm pugging we can assume the same will remain true to a degree for cross realm content. YES things will change, but the sky will not come falling for all guilds. Guilds will still want to progress and rank (Requires 8/10 for 10m) to achieve this.

    Other than that, it's just content. Content that should be accessible by ease of finding a group to complete. Not by busting my jewels paying $25 and finding out the guild is already falling apart. You're making it easier to play the video game you pay for.

  7. #27
    It goes along with the reason why normal mode was tuned tighter this expansion. The developers wanted to keep normal modes a thing for guilds and tried to push PuGs out into LFR. Obviously that move back fired given the introduction of Flex. Ever since WotLK there has been a worry from Blizzard that guilds will lose their purpose for all but a tiny sliver of players and there with it the binding power of keeping players attached to the game by way of social pulls. I am not saying that Blizzards methods are the best, just that is the purpose behind them. The guild perks in Cata was the first wave action to give guilds meaning and try to get players to stick and instead some players QQ and others didnt give a shit because how meaningless the rewards really are if you are a progression oriented raider looking for a new guild. With LFR the developers had a method to trim off the less organized groups from normal mode thinking that these players would be happy with something a far step down from even ToC with a shit load more frustration. The introduction of LFR was really the developers shooting themselves in the foot with their original goal and the developers just made it a bigger problem.

    I dont see anything wrong with players choosing to pick the more convenient yet less efficient method of PuG raiding as long as players understand that convenience has its downside which sadly a number of players are too full of themselves to understand. Just like Cata heroics if you cant handle random groups then form your own group or shut the fuck up.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-10-18 at 09:27 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Defaulty View Post
    Please show sources to your blizzard claims.

    And if you have players leaving because they are pugging then find someone new. People will still want to be in an organized group to progress like you said earlier for realm Pugging. It's exactly the same. Pugging is pugging. You want quality players every week to show up. It's not heroic content, it's normal. Heroic should always remain on Realm/Servers only due to Realm First prestige.
    You have Flex for pugging. Normal is for progression with a stable group.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    You have Flex for pugging. Normal is for progression with a stable group.
    Casual players consider normals as progression content, hardcore/semi-casual consider Heroic as progression. Progression wouldn't be counted without a number of people in your guild with the kill. As I said, it's still pugging as if you were on your own realm.

  10. #30
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Honestly I feel like Belloc's problem is reflected in his statment: "Right now, if a 10man guild has a player not show up, they pick up someone from trade chat and that's that" It sounds fairly short sighted, but it doesn't surprise me to hear that coming from someone who plays on Sargeras, which has over 13k raiding alliance players according to wowprogress.

    This is the issue we're addressing here Belloc, is that guilds on smaller servers can't just pick up someone from trade chat. If you're on a tight knit guild on a medium-low pop server, and your tank just left the game, you are hard pressed to find a replacement. I once built a guild on a lower end server and the guild literally fell apart because we had two people leave the game for personal reasons and we went over two months sitting on the bench trying to find replacements. People don't want to spend money to transfer to a smaller server, and for good reason. But not everyone can afford to transfer and asking an entire guild to move to another server so they can continue to exist as a raiding guild just doesn't work for real people. Some always feel left behind.

    So that guild I built during Wrath? Gone. We eventually, one by one, left for other guilds and other servers, or left the game entirely. This is just one example I personally know of a guild that might have been saved could we have brought in some fresh people through a cross realm group environment. It's anecdotal, I know, but it is based on more evidence than your assertion that allowing normal modes to be cross-realmed for guild groups to pick up that 9th or 10th member would destroy guilds, that is for certain.

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    I can kindof understand why you wouldn't want to be able to cross-realm heroic mode, since there are the world first feats of strength and whatnot, but since there really is no big prestige awards for normals, why not enable cross-realm grouping?

    It would have seriously helped my group last night when we unexpectedly lost a healer with an hour to go for our raid time last night if I could have utilized my entire list of friends instead of just those on my server, and I play on a well populated server. It must be very difficult for groups on low-pop realms to be suddenly made short-handed.

    I mean, even if they made a 7/10, 18/25 style same realm requirement, it would certainly be nice to be able to fill holes with people from other realms.

    What are the drawbacks that I'm not thinking about?
    because of exactly that.
    groups would be buying kills more or less.

    it is bad enough when same server guilds start to sell kills.
    just imagine if you could do it from the get go.
    you could easily pay for a full clear then jump around others that are doing the work and be raiding heroic weeks ahead of your peers.

    earn it period.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  12. #32
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    because of exactly that.
    groups would be buying kills more or less.

    it is bad enough when same server guilds start to sell kills.
    just imagine if you could do it from the get go.
    you could easily pay for a full clear then jump around others that are doing the work and be raiding heroic weeks ahead of your peers.

    earn it period.
    False. You cannot trade gold cross-realm, and this wouldn't change that. The only thing you can trade is items earned in the instance. And you may say, "But they'll sell it for real cash on their website then." but that is against the terms of service, and if a person were willing to spend real cash on loot, they'd just server transfer anyway and buy the run. Anyway you look at it, that's a poor argument for implementing a useful utility.

    And besides, this is for normal modes, not heroics.
    Last edited by Ailyara; 2013-10-18 at 10:19 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    So your reasoning for not allowing cross-realm groups is because players are asking for fewer restrictions too much? Seems like you're essentializing the argument based on a dislike for a previous change? I view all your points as positive additions, so yes, we would like more.
    I don't think that you understand that each of those things that I mentioned has played a part in the marginalization of low population realms, the creation of super-servers, and the decay of the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    I once built a guild on a lower end server and the guild literally fell apart because we had two people leave the game for personal reasons and we went over two months sitting on the bench trying to find replacements. People don't want to spend money to transfer to a smaller server, and for good reason. But not everyone can afford to transfer and asking an entire guild to move to another server so they can continue to exist as a raiding guild just doesn't work for real people. Some always feel left behind.

    So that guild I built during Wrath? Gone. We eventually, one by one, left for other guilds and other servers, or left the game entirely.
    It's especially humorous because your guild wouldn't have fallen apart if none of the things that I'd mentioned had happened. Furthermore, it is possible to recruit people to lower population realms. We recruited 3 new people at the end of ToT for progression in SoO on Lightninghoof, which is an awful server.

  14. #34
    Blizz makes tons of money off server transfers, if they eliminated the reason to server transfer in the first place, would people be happier? Yeah, but blizz would lose out on a ton of cash in the process. Screwed up, yes, but that's just the way it is.

  15. #35
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isiildur View Post
    I don't think that you understand that each of those things that I mentioned has played a part in the marginalization of low population realms, the creation of super-servers, and the decay of the community.
    No. Dungeonfinder and Raidfinder can arguably promote the decay of the community because it is for all intents and purposes anonymous due to the -random- factor, I will not debate that. What I am asking for is NOT random. Let me ask you, have you used Openraid.us to build any cross realm groups? Would you call that a terrible community? No, it is actually a good community. People are building relationships, growing their friends list, doing more things with more people than ever before. It's not anonymous, it's community building. What we're talking about here is creating a larger community, not stripping one down. LFR/LFG arguably yes, it destroyed some sense of community by making it a waste of time to try and build relationships with the people you grouped with because you would never see them again. But people I raid with on Openraid? They stay on my friends list and we do things together often. That is a community expanding tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isiildur View Post
    It's especially humorous because your guild wouldn't have fallen apart if none of the things that I'd mentioned had happened. Furthermore, it is possible to recruit people to lower population realms. We recruited 3 new people at the end of ToT for progression in SoO on Lightninghoof, which is an awful server.
    Um, nice try, but my old guild fell apart in _wrath_ long before any of the stuff you're talking about happened.

    Your arguments are still invalid.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiildur View Post
    So we've gone from:
    Your toon is on this server, deal with it.
    You can pay us money to transfer your toon to a different server.
    You can now queue up for heroic dungeons and play in groups with people from various servers.
    You can now queue up for LFR, a new raid difficulty, with people from different servers.
    You can now queue up for Flex, a new raid difficulty below normal, with friends from different servers.

    And now we're suggesting allowing people to do normals? Give people an inch and they want a mile.
    Servers weren't dead back in the start though. As more and more have died Blizzard have allowed more and more things to be xrealm to keep the overall game alive.

  17. #37
    Reason isvery simle they make to much $$$from servers transfers to allow curent content be cross realm.

  18. #38
    Id rather have my server community than have random pugs from cross realm whose qualities I do not know.
    Mew!

  19. #39
    They've specifically stated that server first achievements are a concern for them. I think there is ways to work around it but they haven't bothered yet. I think maybe its just an excuse but not sure. I mean you could just say give server first only to a group that is 80% on the same server.

  20. #40
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirri View Post
    Id rather have my server community than have random pugs from cross realm whose qualities I do not know.
    I would say that people who are on your friends list from other servers are less random than people who you meet in trade chat on your own server.

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