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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Why raid with your guild when you can join another group that's more progressed than yours?

    That's why. I mean, this is another example of obvious problems that people are just completely ignoring. You ask how it would kill organized raiding guilds and the answer is pretty much plain to see: As I said, why raid with your 1-10/14 normal mode guild when you could join that cross-realm 14/14 PuG? Bam, now YOUR guild has to pug someone and, being less progressed, they're going to have a harder time recruiting players. Hell, maybe 2-3 of your players join a pug that week and the only people interested in your less progressed group are players that you wouldn't want in your group to begin with. So, you take them anyway... and then, the next week, another 1-2 extra players don't show. Now you've got a group of 5 guildies and 5 pugs and you clear half the content that you normally would. The next week, you cancel all raids because, fuck it, you're losing progression.

    If you don't believe that would happen, then ... I really don't know what to tell you. I could point out people in every raiding guild that I've been in that would gladly jump ship as soon as a better opportunity presented itself and I guarantee that pretty much everyone here could probably point out a few of those people from their guilds as well.
    You're ignoring logistics and scheduling. And in your scenario, you're either getting in a run with a group for one run, or you're just joining another guild to raid with because they're further progressed. Neither of those things are different than what you can do now.

    I'd rather have a group I know is going to raid the same times every week with the same people than gambling each week on finding a pug that May or may not have even one of the same people as previously.

  2. #42
    In a perfect world there would be no separate servers but one massive server that splinters when X amount of players occupy a zone that way the ENTIRE community could easily interact with each other for any kinds of things without any limitations.

    Pretty sure another game already did this or something similar.

    Oh the pugging that still wouldn't be had.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    I would say that people who are on your friends list from other servers are less random than people who you meet in trade chat on your own server.
    And you would be wrong.
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  4. #44
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirri View Post
    And you would be wrong.
    I know you are but what am I? You refute my point but offer no proof. Listen, if you can explain to me how someone you get through trade chat on your own server is less random than someone you have taken the time to add to your friends list from another realm, I'm all ears. It's not like realms are countries, people are people. The people you've added to your friends list, I assume you've met them somehow previously.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    I know you are but what am I? You refute my point but offer no proof. Listen, if you can explain to me how someone you get through trade chat on your own server is less random than someone you have taken the time to add to your friends list from another realm, I'm all ears. It's not like realms are countries, people are people. The people you've added to your friends list, I assume you've met them somehow previously.
    Oh sorry I didn't realize you couldn't see something glaring obvious. Here let me explain:

    I play with people on my server and see how they do in different situations. I also get a feel for whether they are some 12 year old kid or someone I would enjoy doing additional content with. Do note, I am not saying that people in my server are miles Better any of my cross server Friends. However, your argument is that cross server pugs will trump same realm pugs all the time which is what I do not agree with.

    You would be wrong in stating that cross server pugs are definitively better than same realm pugs. They might be better or they might not but you can't prove it conclusively either way.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaulty View Post
    Casual players consider normals as progression content, hardcore/semi-casual consider Heroic as progression. Progression wouldn't be counted without a number of people in your guild with the kill. As I said, it's still pugging as if you were on your own realm.
    Honest question, do you think people would care about their "realm progression" (which is an arbitrary distinction made up by the community with no tangible rewards) as opposed to their personal progression? Like, if I could slog away at 6/14 with 10 people on my realm, I would do that to be ranked the 3rd guild on the server....as opposed to dropping 3 people, not showing up on the "progression" lists at all, and clearing 14/14?

    I mean, do you think honestly someone will say/think "Well, I'm only 6/14, even though I've cleared 14/14 with this PUG."

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Defaulty View Post
    Thank you for the source. "It's been obvious technique to support your claims forever in any writing." -Albert Einstein.. look it up yoruself on google.

    It's a question of debate, not you slamming your opinion in everyone's face. You don't have statistics because it hasn't been done. So from there we talk about what we "think" may happen. From what you have said and what I have said about current realm pugging we can assume the same will remain true to a degree for cross realm content. YES things will change, but the sky will not come falling for all guilds. Guilds will still want to progress and rank (Requires 8/10 for 10m) to achieve this.

    Other than that, it's just content. Content that should be accessible by ease of finding a group to complete. Not by busting my jewels paying $25 and finding out the guild is already falling apart. You're making it easier to play the video game you pay for.
    I don't think he understands that their is an inherent benefit to being in a guild. If you look at other games with zero restrictions on moving from server to server, players gravitate to groups. This can be paralleled with games such as BF and CoD; but it began long before. Opening up the game, even on heroic, to openraid systems would not kill guilds. Instead, what you would find, based entirely off of known history of gaming psychology, would be players trying on groups until they find a home. The end result would the majority of players forming guilds from groups found through cross-realm raiding.

  8. #48
    Pretty sure the subscription of people not quitting the game would be more beneficial than the xfer fees they get if they did that.

    I ran a 10 man on saturdays with friends, we did normal modes, had to cancel a few times due to people being busy, this group is an alt run of our former guild, people xferred on multiple servers raiding with other guilds. Flex solved SO many issues for this group, it's incredible.

    However, we're 1 shotting everything as of this week, and my alt has only 3 upgrades available in there, we cannot go into normal modes because, well, it's not flexible and it's not cross-realm.

    So next logical step, and I hope it will be done next expansion, is to make normal modes flexible AND cross-realm. You can keep heroics the way it is, but eventually it's kind of evident everything will be cross-realm in this game (guilds are next logical step)
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  9. #49
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    If giving people options that make things better for everyone would kill organized raiding guilds, maybe they deserve to be killed. Think about that :x


    It's pretty arbitrary of a restriction to have just to "save" something like that.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Honest question, do you think people would care about their "realm progression" (which is an arbitrary distinction made up by the community with no tangible rewards) as opposed to their personal progression? Like, if I could slog away at 6/14 with 10 people on my realm, I would do that to be ranked the 3rd guild on the server....as opposed to dropping 3 people, not showing up on the "progression" lists at all, and clearing 14/14?

    I mean, do you think honestly someone will say/think "Well, I'm only 6/14, even though I've cleared 14/14 with this PUG."
    Well your next challenge then would be to do Heroic mode content which is where any hardmode guild wants to be better than the next guild. If thats not your preference to be ranked and you could care less.. then by all means play how you want to play and look at it how you wish.

    But normal content is just regular content for the everyday/weekly player. While heroic content is really pushed for those who wish to prestige. Core example of that fact is World first races.

  11. #51
    Pugging with region-wide player pools kinda sucks.

    Openraid/oQueue pugs are nice for getting a pug at any time of the day, but it's just groups of anonymous players I'll likely never encounter again unless I go out of my way to do so.

    When I join a pug on my server, I know what I'm signing up for by the raid leader alone and I have a fairly good chance that I'll know a few players in a group.

  12. #52
    They say it's out of concern for the impact on guilds, but the question I have is why guild invites are not themselves crossrealm. It seems so obvious, and they appear to have the tech or at least the capability. It would save many players who want to play with their b.net friends on different realms but don't want to or can't afford to transfer from potentially quitting. From an outside view, it does look like they're putting the $25 fee before player quality of life.

  13. #53
    What they need to do is make everything able to work cross realm, including guilds. That way it would be like one massive server that is just split into smaller parts to deal with player load. I've seen way too many hard core guilds on semi-pop realms simply die off and have most of the players quit playing because they were unable to recruit 1-2 people to raid with them because a raider left due to RL. If you could do everything cross, and join guilds cross server you wouldn't have to worry about any of this

    Hell, Im even tempted to quit after playing the game since day 1 because this recently happened to my guild on a now dead server. Its too bothersome for people to pay money for a server change and/or faction change, to hopefully get into a decent guild and have to prove themselves again in an already tight-knit guild that has been together for a while, only to have that guild break up eventually and have the cycle repeat. This happens so much on non high realm servers its frustrating and eventually they will end up merging and shutting down non high pop servers because people dont play on them anymore because there is no incentive to play on a non high pop server. Being tied down to a server is an old concept of mmo's.

    If you think that doing everything cross would kill guilds because pugs your wrong, all the non high pop servers are all already dieing because its too hard to get people to join your guild because anyone in their right mind wouldn't pay to join a non high pop server. If you could join any guild on any server and raid anything with them, it wouldn't be an issue on what server you were on and guilds would flourish. Pugs will always be less desirable to people because it has less co-ordination and more hassle where guilds are the opposite; they clear faster/better, have a sense of community, usually use a good looting system for attendance and also has less asshats. Server first dont exists anymore for raids so thats not an issue. If your worried about server guild progression.... who cares honestly, would you rather be in a guild that is ranked 300 in the world or in a guild that is ranked 1 on a dead server that no one cares or has heard of, hell or even plays on anymore?
    Last edited by Ishamaelronin; 2013-10-21 at 05:41 AM.

  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirri View Post
    You would be wrong in stating that cross server pugs are definitively better than same realm pugs. They might be better or they might not but you can't prove it conclusively either way.
    But, they're not exactly pugs, thats the point, they are (usually) people you have added to your friends list because you like them.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    False. You cannot trade gold cross-realm, and this wouldn't change that. The only thing you can trade is items earned in the instance. And you may say, "But they'll sell it for real cash on their website then." but that is against the terms of service, and if a person were willing to spend real cash on loot, they'd just server transfer anyway and buy the run. Anyway you look at it, that's a poor argument for implementing a useful utility.

    And besides, this is for normal modes, not heroics.

    "don't know about you but the second they open normal modes to cross realm invites I am opening a bank account in korea and bringing in two ringers."

    THAT is how it would go.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post

    And besides, this is for normal modes, not heroics.
    and how much ahead of your peers would it put you to not have to worry about whether you clear normal mode because you can buy your first and then start in on the easier heroics?







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  16. #56
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    "don't know about you but the second they open normal modes to cross realm invites I am opening a bank account in korea and bringing in two ringers."

    THAT is how it would go.
    That's just showing your ignorance of how cross-realm groups go. You can only cross-realm group with people in the same region. So no one in the US is going to be inviting guys from paragon into their 10m normal (as if they would even bother lol).


    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    and how much ahead of your peers would it put you to not have to worry about whether you clear normal mode because you can buy your first and then start in on the easier heroics?
    Well, I would argue that if you need to be carried through normal mode, you're not going to be very successful with even the easiest heroics. But if that is a major concern, simply stagger the ability to cross-realm normals by a few weeks like we do the release of flex or something. Once a raid is fully open to the flex difficulty, normal mode cross-realm opens a week later. By that time, if you haven't completed normal modes, you're not really in a race for server first anyway. (at least on most servers)

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    Well, I would argue that if you need to be carried through normal mode, you're not going to be very successful with even the easiest heroics. But if that is a major concern, simply stagger the ability to cross-realm normals by a few weeks like we do the release of flex or something. Once a raid is fully open to the flex difficulty, normal mode cross-realm opens a week later. By that time, if you haven't completed normal modes, you're not really in a race for server first anyway. (at least on most servers)
    There was a guild affectionately nick named "Dies in Raids" on my old server that did this every tier. The would sit at one or two bosses down for half the tier then blammo full clear in a week. They had "friends" carry them through the content then claimed it as their own progress. Kind of sickening. I can only imagine how rampant this kind of thing would become if normals were opened to cross server.







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  18. #58
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    There was a guild affectionately nick named "Dies in Raids" on my old server that did this every tier. The would sit at one or two bosses down for half the tier then blammo full clear in a week. They had "friends" carry them through the content then claimed it as their own progress. Kind of sickening. I can only imagine how rampant this kind of thing would become if normals were opened to cross server.
    If your server seriously has a race for who can clear normal modes, then I'd imagine you could only be helped by being able to bring in cross-server talent. This isn't really a significant goal to shoot for. Its not like there's a server first normal mode achievement. Arguing against a useful function for the world because you want to win a normal mode progression race on a low pop realm? Okay.

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