Demo's evolution?

[Werst]

Another thread got me thinking but after the changes to demo and state of things in both pvp and pve it is fair to say the spec could use some updating. Yes its clearly still viable if you have top gear, are Zinn, etc but regardless its still not in a place that you could call good design. User friendly is something demo isn't. Skill cap is one thing...where its gone to presently is subjectively too far if you have to be an extreme top raider w' years of experience to execute it to the level other specs perform at with simply correct play.

We've seen the plethora of nerfs to virtually every aspect of the spec yet it still CAN perform. Problem is a priority list so confusing to even an experienced player they are unlikely to want to use it barring some love of the spec itself overriding their otherwise balanced judgment.

Demo has virtually no presence in pvp. In some of the best possible gear your corruption ticks for under 2K, dooms get dispelled almost 2x over before even ticking, the pet isn't scary to any spec of any class (compared to say a bm or unholy pet?! C'mon), and its nukes are nowhere near worth their cast times even ignoring the overarching pvp reality that long casts don't happen anymore. Fel flame (primary pvp filler) actually does more damage to the warlock in terms of mana cost that must be lifetapped back than it does in damage to our enemy. Chaoswave...once a killer is now a joke. In testing in rated play in pvp gear vs pvp gear (no koto or zerking cheese buffs) the highest crit we were able to hit was about 70K. Without CD stacking that number is very significantly lower. With a sub 2% chance to double crit you can see the figures just don't add up to functional in pvp. Hell if you try to use the dark apotheosis form you get a full fledged tank debuff yet that form repeatedly gets nerfs so it clearly is NOT a tanking option. You can't tank but you pay the tax for it in other words while not even being that "tanky". Offensively the spec lacks the burst to kill anything while also lacking any kind of spread pressure to rot a team.

All this brings us to the real topic..."where should demo go from here"?

PVE I think demo needs to streamline a bit. Corruption has become awkward and contributes very little damage. I would much rather move its damage and DF generation into shadowflame/HoG through extending the duration. Fel flame needs to be treated like arc blast...a short duration stacking cost. Say 25/50/75/100% of live on a 4'ish sec timer? It should be useable cheaply but conservatively but expensive to spam. As for void ray its always been very awkward...I'd prefer a shadowbolt volley (lore) or a dark chain lightning. In that capacity it somewhat fights immo aura for a role...unless one were melee'ish and one truly ranged. ToC needs to scale better with haste...or give it a role of say extending shadowflame stacks per use and granting MC charges akin to ember bit generation. That would give a sustained DF use model and a max burst DF model.

PVP demo needs quite a bit of help. Doom needs to refund its DF cost PLUS generate an imp when dispelled. Not quite the UA kickback but it makes tactical dispelling fine but habitual dispelling costly...or at the very least doesn't make the spell a complete and total neutered waste in pvp. If FF were given the stacking cost arc blast treatment it would be a start. Honestly the spell could probably stand to do more damage to player targets the same way CB does 25% less. The lock also should get DF from damage taken ONLY from other player sources...OR just have DF generating spells grant more DF vs player targets. Chaoswave needs to have its 30% nerf reverted. It also probably needs to have the always/never crits but damage scales with crit treatment. Previously the issue wasn't an all CD's CW combo...it was the sub 2% chance to double crit combined with MF making it hit a large area. That's no longer possible and based on what other classes/specs do CW has room to grow. This would normalize that type of damage swings of 2x CW having 4x possible outcomes giving an incredibly random swing variance.

Other minor misc changes might be the siphon life working on shadowflame ticks the same way it works on corr/immo ticks now....pretty easy conversion. Maybe a glyph to use hellfire/immo aura on either a ranged location or even around a friendly target so the lock doesn't have to be in melee to aoe? As for the imp swarm glyph make it a 1.5 min CD @ 4x imps as a baseline ability. Let the glyph take it to 5x at 2.5 mins.

Looking for other ideas/input...maybe steer the spec back to less of a Rube Goldberg DPS machine?

[FurtyIRL]

Seems like a lot of radical ideas. What's wrong with demo's playstyle now? Why do we need 'arcane blast' fel flame or shadowbolt volley? Part of the reason the spec is so beloved to so many great players is the layers of complexity, not just thinking about your priorities in the moment but how you'll be playing a minute or two ahead as well. The only thing I find myself wishing for is the T15 two piece. With imps having a lot less presence than before fury just feels so thin, even if you are still putting out good numbers. Still love the spec to bits but its got a little shred of awkwardness. As for PvP all three specs don't need to be PvP viable, it's that kind of attempted balancing that ends up skewering the PvE balance.

[Invection]

Problem is that the developer who designed the new warlock specs was let go. Blizzard's developers have done a poor job of warlock balance overall, and especially with demo. I remember when 5.3 came out, they buffed Doom damage and then nerfed corruption and doom within a week after people started getting uvls. As far as a PVE standpoint, the spec is much harder to use and extremely clunky. On aoe fights it can be ok, but it's fury generation is garbage. There needs to be some balance brought back to demonology, in either a.) lower filler cast times b.) Higher Demonic Fury Gen however it is likely both are needed.

[Belloc]

Problem is that the developer who designed the new warlock specs was let go.

Does anyone honestly still believe that a single developer designed the new warlock specs?

[Jessicka]

Just give the Imp back that they took away from Imp Swarm at the start of 5.4. The extra on demand Fury makes things more managable using that Glyph. While it wouldn't significantly change throughput it would improve manageability and quality of life as well as make the Glyph more attractive so players try it out.

It would help PvP burst too.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Sigh, rest in pieces Demonology.
You was loved, but you shouldnt have taken the risk to abuse uvls.

[Deleted]

the problem is in BiS gear Demo is virtually identical single target DPS to Affliction and Destruction, and in PvE Dark Soul + Service Felguard + Bladestorm + 2 x HoG/CW + Immolation Aura + Carrion Swarm = very high burst AoE, so changing Demo needs to be delicate to avoid PvE issues. the Fel Flame and Doom changes you suggest are pretty interesting. for Fel Flame, I think it would be pretty horrible for Demo Locks to not even have a non-Meta filler spam spell, pressure is already so absurdly low as Demo I think it would hurt the spec in the long run. personally I would like to see a lot of Demo PvP balance centered around Doom. perhaps if it had a 50% bypass of resilience as baseline? that way you could put out reasonable spread damage but predictable in the way it deals damage so it's not gamechanging. I like the idea of a dispel penalty, perhaps having Doom dispelled could provide a passive buff to the Warlock, or reduce the cooldown of Dark Soul by x seconds, could empower the next Doom cast to tick twice as fast and be undispellable?

[Jawless Jones]

unerring vision of leishen

[Radome]

What does "uvl" mean?

Unerring Vision of Lei Shen. It was a trinket whose proc effect was 100% crit chance for four seconds.

[Xanatas]

a great solution for demo, affli, and destru PVP is to give good RNG for bursting istant spell/crit. This is the very solution. In this right game right now casting VS a melee is pretty impossibile, try to cast a spell non-istant VS a warrior.

In 1.5 sec (time to cast a lollish immolate), un hunter can 100%-50%.

Warlock have several abilities and spells with very, very old design.

I think "backlash"... in TBC backlash was good, now is useless. Give it a shorter ICD and give a critting empowered incinerate, activated by phisical damage and spells.

Drain life is a pathetic healing system in pvp MOP, give a CD and make it istant like death syphon (matye with an healing over time).

Demo need an efficient healing system, drain fury for a dark mending?

Nedd also to give a bonus damage in several spells VS player, chaos wave in PVE/raid is great, in PVP is LOLLISH.

Blood horror is shit, created VS melee and warrior for horror effect... is reflectable anche i need to go with a killing-talent (unbound will).

p.s. melee burst and dps is TOO high, warlock have trouble with melee.. and warlock have lower armor in the game. Lol.

sorry for my english

[Muezick]

3 weeks till blizzcon, and we'll find out what they plan on doing to fix their fuckups!


I'm expecting another overhaul tbh ... affliction and destro are doing good, but demo seems awkward as a lot of people claim. It's fun to play, but the damage is either way out of control or was sub par. This is no ones fault but the devs.

[Violetti]

change title to Demo's Devolution

high five

[Deleted]

If you think demo is weak for pve just play something else? its clearly not performing as weak as people were expecting after uvls and imp nerf. On bis gear its 500 sim dps behind destruction and 20!! k above affliction.

Is it harder to play? yes

Do you get rewarded for playing well compared to destruction? no

My two cents

[fujiapples]

I absolutely love the way demo looks right now.At mine 570ilvl demo perform extrimely well,im using it on heroic immerseus, sha of pride, juggernaut, shamans, malkorok, blackfuse and im performing on a par with/better than other two specs.My guild is progressing on hc paragons of klaxi right now and i can tell for sure that demo is awesome there as well.
People just overreact to nerfs.Before the nerfs demo was too high,nothing could catch up with properly played demo.But now its just on the right place.Blizzard did a brilliant job with tunning.Cheers to them

[a C e]

I absolutely love the way demo looks right now.At mine 570ilvl demo perform extrimely well,im using it on heroic immerseus, sha of pride, juggernaut, shamans, malkorok, blackfuse and im performing on a par with/better than other two specs.My guild is progressing on hc paragons of klaxi right now and i can tell for sure that demo is awesome there as well.
People just overreact to nerfs.Before the nerfs demo was too high,nothing could catch up with properly played demo.But now its just on the right place.Blizzard did a brilliant job with tunning.Cheers to them

you are 570 95% of warlocks are below 560. im only 554 what about us what have we done to deserve this. most of uss are stuck with only one spec in normal progression

[Last Starfighter]

you are 570 95% of warlocks are below 560. im only 554 what about us what have we done to deserve this. most of uss are stuck with only one spec in normal progression

No. You have 2 specs in normal progression. Afflic is completely viable at 540 or 550. And demo is fine at ur ilvl. It's just not overpowered anymore. Rolling 100% crits would make up for poor play because it was so overpowered. But now you have to play demo well to do well. Doesn't matter if you're at 550 or 570.

- - - Updated - - -

3 weeks till blizzcon, and we'll find out what they plan on doing to fix their fuckups!


I'm expecting another overhaul tbh ... affliction and destro are doing good, but demo seems awkward as a lot of people claim. It's fun to play, but the damage is either way out of control or was sub par. This is no ones fault but the devs.

No, it's time for another class to get an overhaul. Locks were commanding all expansion. Move on to another.

[Betrayerx]

Is it really an issue to have a spec that isn't brain dead easy like destruction? Isn't that part of what defines the 3 different specs? Blizz must have anticipated all of this by buffing destro for all you people who clearly don't want to take the time to either learn it post uvls or relearn what you knew from T14. Does destro perform better on a lot of fights in SoO? Absolutely but that's if you purely look at what meters show at the end of a fight and don't actually use wol to analyze the dmg being done and being put into the right targets. SoO happens to have a lot of destro friendly cleave and add snipe fights. They clearly buffed destro with that thought in mind.

[a C e]

No. You have 2 specs in normal progression. Afflic is completely viable at 540 or 550. And demo is fine at ur ilvl. It's just not overpowered anymore. Rolling 100% crits would make up for poor play because it was so overpowered. But now you have to play demo well to do well. Doesn't matter if you're at 550 or 570.

- - - Updated - - -

No, it's time for another class to get an overhaul. Locks were commanding all expansion. Move on to another.

first of all he wasn't talking about getting overhauls or anything the mechanics or the gameplay of warlocks is just fine, he is just talking about balancing. Warlocks atleast had 1 op spec the entire expansion because the devs didn't know how to balance it properly. We just want to have at least 2 specs that are viable at all item levels. And i don't know if you have played demo.affliction at 560- after all the hot fixes in the past 2-3 weeks or so, they cant do anything that destro cant do better.

PS: we have some problems with demo in pvp too, there arent any demo warlocks above 2.2k in pvp and there only 4 destro warlocks above 2.2k.

[Last Starfighter]

first of all he wasn't talking about getting overhauls or anything the mechanics or the gameplay of warlocks is just fine, he is just talking about balancing. Warlocks atleast had 1 op spec the entire expansion because the devs didn't know how to balance it properly. We just want to have at least 2 specs that are viable at all item levels. And i don't know if you have played demo.affliction at 560- after all the hot fixes in the past 2-3 weeks or so, they cant do anything that destro cant do better.

PS: we have some problems with demo in pvp too, there arent any demo warlocks above 2.2k in pvp and there only 4 destro warlocks above 2.2k.

You do have 2 specs that are viable at all ilvls. Every tier we go through this. "Don't go affliction until you're at 490 ilvl" "Don't go afflic until you're 525 ilvl" "Don't go afflic until your 555 ilvl". It doesn't reset every tier like everyone thinks it does. If you were afflic last tier, you can be afflic this tier regardless of ilvl. Your stats didn't go down.

And "After the hot fixes 2-3 weeks ago, they can't do anything better than destro can't". And? Your argument is what? That's fine. There will always be one spec edging the others. But we have 3 viable specs unlike most pures. And they can do it just as well. Part of the reason destro does well is because it's so user friendly. You can have poor play and do okay. Demo you can't. Afflic you can't.

And previous to mop, demo wasn't even a thought in pvp.

[a C e]

You do have 2 specs that are viable at all ilvls. Every tier we go through this. "Don't go affliction until you're at 490 ilvl" "Don't go afflic until you're 525 ilvl" "Don't go afflic until your 555 ilvl". It doesn't reset every tier like everyone thinks it does. If you were afflic last tier, you can be afflic this tier regardless of ilvl. Your stats didn't go down.

And "After the hot fixes 2-3 weeks ago, they can't do anything better than destro can't". And? Your argument is what? That's fine. There will always be one spec edging the others. But we have 3 viable specs unlike most pures. And they can do it just as well. Part of the reason destro does well is because it's so user friendly. You can have poor play and do okay. Demo you can't. Afflic you can't.

No not most pures, only rogues I guess. But my argument is that they could do better balancing that's all. And your right if i spend 50% of the effort i put into afflic/demo on destro i can do just the same or even better